Rogue - Assassin Changes

[Chai]

For the crowd that thinks its okay to add DEX to assassinate, please answer this:

Would it be equally okay to add INT to hit/damage in the assassin cores?

Why does it need to be in the cores?

We already have this with harper. People want to go this route anyhow due to snagging KTA along the way, which increases DPS significantly on int builds.

[redoubt]

Why does it need to be in the cores?

We already have this with harper. People want to go this route anyhow due to snagging KTA along the way, which increases DPS significantly on int builds.

Because its cheaper.

A dex assassin gets it all included in one tree. An INT assassin has to go over to the harper tree (and buy it potentially) and has to spend a feat on reflexes.

Even if you want KTAs, you free up the 4 AP points by not getting strategic combat 1&2 (even if you are getting MP from harper.) A free feat and 4 AP are a huge advantage.

People seem to think that giving an INT based assassin hit/damage in the tree is overpowered, but at the same time think it is okay to do exactly that for a DEX build. I don't understand the double standard here.

[slarden]

Pick that definition apart all you want, my statement is correct. Assassinating is not really harder than coup as a play mechanic. The single biggest factor in why people say this, is the preferred playstyle of the vast majority being fast runs or zergs, which is less conducive to assassinating than it is for coup.

The play style which is completely subjective to the culture of this community, is what makes assassination tougher than coup. Not the game mechanics themselves.

Oh I didn't realize you were talking about just assassinate and not rogue vs. swash in general - so your nose didn't grow at all.

I agree with you and disagree with others on that point. I actually think assassinate is pretty good compared to coup. However, I think swashbuckler wins on every other major measure in the game - dps, defense, self-healing, dps, etc. Assassin doesn't really win on assassinate either.

I mentioned earlier that I can get 2 kills from a single assassinate. You can actually get 3 with twitching. So yeah assassinate is not awful, but as you said with a zerging party and assassins moving at 75% (soon to be 90% which is still too slow really with all the speed boosts in the game) and the rest of the party moving 130%+ good luck getting any kills at all with assassinate.

Another minor dispute is that you mentioned you can stealth into a mob. That is not correct - if you try stealthing into an EE mob you will be noticed - you are mostly limited to picking the best target on the fringe or you will be noticed and can't assassinate at all. This again has alot to do with rogue sneak speed and the changes that were made to spot checks some time back.

But I agree with your general point that assassinate and coup are not miles apart in terms of effectiveness - they are just different.

[slarden]

For the crowd that thinks its okay to add DEX to assassinate, please answer this:

Would it be equally okay to add INT to hit/damage in the assassin cores?

I actually think that is a must if they allow you to use dex or int for assassinate. And the Shadowdancer ability Executioner's strike should also be dex or int.

[Chai]

Because its cheaper.

A dex assassin gets it all included in one tree. An INT assassin has to go over to the harper tree (and buy it potentially) and has to spend a feat on reflexes.

Even if you want KTAs, you free up the 4 AP points by not getting strategic combat 1&2 (even if you are getting MP from harper.) A free feat and 4 AP are a huge advantage.

People seem to think that giving an INT based assassin hit/damage in the tree is overpowered, but at the same time think it is okay to do exactly that for a DEX build. I don't understand the double standard here.

Im using strategic combat 1 in part because the point investment qualifies me for the next tier to get to KTA as well - so those points aren't really freed up. What feat in the game are you talking with the opening which constitutes a "huge advantage". Part of the issue in DDO is there are limited useful melee feats for non fighters.

I don't think either option is overpowered especially compared to what it needs to compete with after revamp. I just don't think int to damage is needed in the cores.

[CThruTheEgo]

Ive played maxed out versions of both too, and I do not concur that its "no contest". Its more of a preference in style in the way the game is played hammered into the culture of the community that plays it, than it is "easier"

The community is mostly into fast runs and or zergs (not the same thing, but both are fast). Bard insta kills favor the faster playstyle. If this game was so hard where pulling mobs back was the least risky way to play, people would see how viable assassins really are. What messes up the assassins ability to instakill at the level they really can is the speed and tenacity of play adopted by most other players which disallows a subterfuge, hunt and kill, non-direct confrontation playstyle. The common desire in builds is to optimize to be able to run in and kill, and burst out of melee range to heal when needed. Do your damage and get out. By the time an assassin can manipulate circumstances to their favor to use their insta kill the rest of the players are two rooms down further zerg plowing another next room.

Ruling playstyle out and being completely subjective however, one is not easier than the other. I can just as easily sneak up on a mob and bump it off as I can put some CC on it and bump it off. The vast majority of the players do not want to wait for the sneak method however.....

The culture of play in DDO does not favor the assassin playstyle. In terms of playstyle preference, run in, trip and kill > sneak in and kill.

That's the difference.

I don't agree with this. I like to play my assassin at breakneck speeds also. For me, the difference in playstyle between an assassin and nearly every other melee is twofold. First, because the majority of their dps relies on sneak attack damage, agro management is paramount. If you're getting agro, then your dps drops significantly. This results in a much more cautious playstyle. In other words, you don't just run in and start swinging. You have to play with a little more finesse. In the current state of the game, this is less of a factor due to improved deception, but it is still a factor. Second, sneaking is part of the playstyle. Sneaking can be used as a way to manage agro, but it is a necessity to use assassinate. When you're with a group of zergers, assassinating at any point during a fight requires you to be aware of the entirety of the situation. You have to know where archers are so you don't cross their line of fire while sneaking. You have to know where your target is, and where they are going to be by the time you reach them and assassinate is off cooldown. That requires awareness of mob behavior. You have to know which target you should be trying to eliminate first.

No other class or build requires this level of awareness to be effective. It will certainly help them, but it is practically a requirement for an assassin. This is what the assassin playstyle is about for me. It's about playing with more finesse and cunning than your average melee, even at full zerg speed.

The reason bard has better survivability, dps, healing (both self and group), damage mitigation, damage avoidance etc....is because we are comparing 2015 bard with 2012 assassin. Comparing post revamp classes vs pre revamp classes is good to assess where the power of the pre revamp class should be after it gets its love.

Even with the proposed changes to assassin, I see nothing that is going to put assassin ahead of swashbuckler in any of the categories I mentioned. I'm fine with that tbh, as swashbuckler is clearly OP and bringing assassin up to their level in any of those categories is going to make them OP as well.

[Chai]

I don't agree with this. I like to play my assassin at breakneck speeds also. For me, the difference in playstyle between an assassin and nearly every other melee is twofold. First, because the majority of their dps relies on sneak attack damage, agro management is paramount. If you're getting agro, then your dps drops significantly. This results in a much more cautious playstyle. In other words, you don't just run in and start swinging. You have to play with a little more finesse. In the current state of the game, this is less of a factor due to improved deception, but it is still a factor. Second, sneaking is part of the playstyle. Sneaking can be used as a way to manage agro, but it is a necessity to use assassinate. When you're with a group of zergers, assassinating at any point during a fight requires you to be aware of the entirety of the situation. You have to know where archers are so you don't cross their line of fire while sneaking. You have to know where your target is, and where they are going to be by the time you reach them and assassinate is off cooldown. That requires awareness of mob behavior. You have to know which target you should be trying to eliminate first.

No other class or build requires this level of awareness to be effective. It will certainly help them, but it is practically a requirement for an assassin. This is what the assassin playstyle is about for me. It's about playing with more finesse and cunning than your average melee, even at full zerg speed.

You are actually agreeing with me here. As I pointed out, its the subjective play style choice of the vast majority of the community which puts assassin in the harder to play effectively category. Not the design of the class itself.

Even with the proposed changes to assassin, I see nothing that is going to put assassin ahead of swashbuckler in any of the categories I mentioned. I'm fine with that tbh, as swashbuckler is clearly OP and bringing assassin up to their level in any of those categories is going to make them OP as well.

They make up a lot by being able to equip light armor and keep their dodge bonus high while doing so. Assassinate isn't so far behind coup as many exaggerated claims say it is mechanically. Its the subjective play style choice - which is a player / community decision and not a Turbine design, which is the single biggest factor in why assassinate suffers while coup does not.

[Cetus]

a friend asked me if I go back to pure rogue with the current changes.
my answer? definitely NOT if DPS will not be at least comparable to the revmap classes.
does not matter to me whether assasin should be focused on stealth or acrobat maybe more suitable for DPS

Rogue DPS should be the best, but this "best" cost u worst/bad defense it's a good deal, and this is true so in the PNP and the old DDO (before ED)

so Dev's and player do u remember this "balance"

forgottent thread "DPS Chellange" https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...hallenge-Part2

oh watch this //"Cetus" vs rogUe// vid from 2011-2012

Round 1 Cetus

Oh man...we've been playing this game way too long lol

But yea, back then Rogues were badass.

[brzytki]

Ruling playstyle out and being completely subjective however, one is not easier than the other. I can just as easily sneak up on a mob and bump it off as I can put some CC on it and bump it off. The vast majority of the players do not want to wait for the sneak method however.....

The culture of play in DDO does not favor the assassin playstyle. In terms of playstyle preference, run in, trip and kill > sneak in and kill.

Pick that definition apart all you want, my statement is correct. Assassinating is not really harder than coup as a play mechanic. The single biggest factor in why people say this, is the preferred playstyle of the vast majority being fast runs or zergs, which is less conducive to assassinating than it is for coup.

The play style which is completely subjective to the culture of this community, is what makes assassination tougher than coup. Not the game mechanics themselves.

I'm sorry I don't understand this. Are you saying that Coup de Grace and Assassinate are similar in terms of how to use them because in both cases you have to click only two buttons? For CdG, one button for spell/attack that makes the monster "prepared" and another for CdG? For Assassinate, one button to go into stealth and another to assassinate? Is that what you mean by "assassinate not being harder than CdG"?

[levy1964]

Oh man...we've been playing this game way too long lol

But yea, back then Rogues were badass.

+1

yea, i remember some gold time rogUe when we run with guild epic "chains" and full eq barb with esos (yo Seljuck xD) say....."SAnjo give my some mob to kill !!!10101" xD

[CThruTheEgo]

You are actually agreeing with me here. As I pointed out, its the subjective play style choice of the vast majority of the community which puts assassin in the harder to play effectively category. Not the design of the class itself.

No, I'm not agreeing. Here is what you said:

What messes up the assassins ability to instakill at the level they really can is the speed and tenacity of play adopted by most other players which disallows a subterfuge, hunt and kill, non-direct confrontation playstyle.

...snip...

By the time an assassin can manipulate circumstances to their favor to use their insta kill the rest of the players are two rooms down further zerg plowing another next room.

Unless I'm reading this wrong, you're saying the zerg playstyle is a hindrance to the assassin's playstyle. What I'm saying is, "the speed and tenacity of play adopted by most other players" does not "mess up the assassins ability to instakill." The assassin just requires smarter play whether you're zerging or not. That is the defining feature of the playstyle - smarter and more aware - and that can be done while zerging or sneaking and single pulling one target at a time. I zerg and keep assassinate on cooldown, take out key targets, dps in between, and keep up with a full speed zerg group. You have to be more aware than other melee builds to be able to do that.

[redoubt]

Im using strategic combat 1 in part because the point investment qualifies me for the next tier to get to KTA as well - so those points aren't really freed up. What feat in the game are you talking with the opening which constitutes a "huge advantage". Part of the issue in DDO is there are limited useful melee feats for non fighters.

I don't think either option is overpowered especially compared to what it needs to compete with after revamp. I just don't think int to damage is needed in the cores.

Spend those 2 points on other T1 enhancements. It could be worth:
+1 weapon enhancement
+10 HP
+2 listen/search/spot
If you are using strategic combat 1 as part of the 5 spent to get to T2, then you have other useful choices available. If you want to consider KTA as mandatory for either INT or DEX builds, then you get 2 AP to spend move out of strategic combat and spend elsewhere in T1. You also get 3 AP from T2 that are no longer needed to get up to T3 for KTA. If you skip the harper tree all together you would free up a minimum of 12 AP getting strategic 1 & 2. I think many will still spend points in Harper, but adding hit/damage to the assassin cores would free up those 4 AP to be spend in different ways, either in the harper tree or in other trees.

The feat is "insightful reflexes". It is widely considered a required feat for an INT based assassin. If you go DEX based, you don't need that feat and now have one free.

Yes, I consider 4 extra action points a huge bonus. I also consider a free feat a huge bonus. That's two...

Lastly, you are correct. INT to hit/damage does not NEED to be in the cores, just the same as DEX does not NEED to be in the assassinate formula. As the tree stands now, assassins are built on INT. If DEX is added to assassinate, assassins will be DEX based. If you want there to be a reasonable choice of INT or DEX, then make the assassin tree equal for both DEX and INT (same for Shadow Dancer.) If one build MUST go out of assassin to get required enhancements, that build will be subordinate to the one that does not.

[brzytki]

Unless I'm reading this wrong, you're saying the zerg playstyle is a hindrance to the assassin's playstyle. What I'm saying is, "the speed and tenacity of play adopted by most other players" does not "mess up the assassins ability to instakill." The assassin just requires smarter play whether you're zerging or not. That is the defining feature of the playstyle - smarter and more aware - and that can be done while zerging or sneaking and single pulling one target at a time. I zerg and keep assassinate on cooldown, take out key targets, dps in between, and keep up with a full speed zerg group. You have to be more aware than other melee builds to be able to do that.

This. Also I can give you some examples of game mechanics and class designs that you need to pay attention to while trying to assassinate, that you can completely ignore when trying to CdG, like: sneak speed, hit box, line of sight, hide/ms skills vs spot/listen skills, cleaving foes, archers, assassinating mid air (something that top rogue players have been doing long before zerg playstyle became so popular), and so on. It's nowhere near the "push-the-button-and move-on" CdG. I've been zerging on my assassin for the last 4 years.

[nibel]

For the crowd that thinks its okay to add DEX to assassinate, please answer this:

Would it be equally okay to add INT to hit/damage in the assassin cores?

I would be perfectly ok with the addition of the Melee Training feat from 4e, and ditching Weapon Finesse and all <stat>-to-hit/damage enhancements. Maybe keeping some for thematic reasons, but heavily linked to weapon types (like acrobat and assassin).

For those who don't play 4e, Melee Training allow you to use any other stat you want for your melee basic attacks. This was mostly because some melee classes uses their powers with a stat other than strength (monks hit with Dex, druids hit with Wisdom, bards hit with Charisma, etc), and it allowed them to make opportunity attacks.

[HastyPudding]

I strongly disagree with the use of dexterity for assassinate dc's. It would make intelligence builds for assassins obsolete; you might as well make assassinate dex-based and remove the intelligence dc completely. There is absolutely no need to make one build in the same tree that does the same thing as another require 12 more AP. That's silly.

If you want straight up dps, go for a dexterity build. If you want to have a high assassinate, go with an intelligence build. Simple as that. You can't have your cake and eat it, too.

[draven1]

I strongly disagree with the use of dexterity for assassinate dc's. It would make intelligence builds for assassins obsolete; you might as well make assassinate dex-based and remove the intelligence dc completely. There is absolutely no need to make one build in the same tree that does the same thing as another require 12 more AP. That's silly.

If you want straight up dps, go for a dexterity build. If you want to have a high assassinate, go with an intelligence build. Simple as that. You can't have your cake and eat it, too.

But, current status of assassin enhancement makes dex based assassins obsolete, too.
Because, int gives not only better assassination DC, but also better DPS than dex ones.
Dex builds have almost nothing useful now. So, That's why every assassins are int-based now.

Even if we can have dex based assassination, int based builds would keep some nice things.
More skill points, better trap skills(I think this point will be very important for upcoming TOEE high DC random traps), better boosted DPS by KtA.

If dex builds can't have assassinate DC, there should be better DPS option for dex builds.
There is no such option for current enhancement or suggested one.

How about critting SA chance that is based on dex ability point?
For example, if you have 40 dex, you will have 40% chance to get SA crit on your crit attack.
If you have 70 dex, you will have 70%.
I think this one might solve current problem for assassin, lack of DPS for dex & int builds.
And it will give some reason to build dex builds.

[slarden]

But, current status of assassin enhancement makes dex based assassins obsolete, too.
Because, int gives not only better assassination DC, but also better DPS than dex ones.

Even if we can have dex based assassination, int based builds would keep some nice things.
More skill points, better trap skills(I think this point will be very important for upcoming TOEE high DC random traps), better boosted DPS by KtA.

Dex based rogues could still take kta and spend less action points and require one less feat. That frees up more action points for better dps than you would get from a slightly bigger kta. More sneak attack in the racial tree and/or no mercy will be provide much more dps overall.

This is basically a big dps boost to rogues, but the more I think about it the more I am ok with giving rogues a bigger boost. They still will be underperforming compared to bards, paladins and barbarians.

[CThruTheEgo]

Dex based rogues could still take kta and spend less action points and require one less feat. That frees up more action points for better dps than you would get from a slightly bigger kta. More sneak attack in the racial tree and/or no mercy will be provide much more dps overall.

There's only 2 races that offer sneak attack in the racial tree - halfling and shadar kai. I don't know much about shadar kai so I can't comment on them, but I'll be upset if halflings become the new optimal choice for assassin. I don't want to go back to halfling. They make me feel like I'm playing in giant world on mario brothers. And I still have nightmares about hezrou butt from that life...

Considering that assassin's have no viable or consistent way to induce helplessness, I wouldn't consider no mercy a big dps increase. It also requires 23 points in acrobat, so will eat up most of your extra points just like harper does now for int builds. I haven't followed all the proposed changes for acrobat, but I'd be surprised if there's 23 AP worth spending in there.

[gwonbush]

If you invest heavily into the Shadar-kai tree, they are well suited for being assassins. In addition to the very useful shadow vault/shadow phase (great for opening doors unseen/getting the hell away and into stealth again), they also have Gloomstalker, which makes all attacks from stealth proc a deception effect and occasionally blind. This makes Assassinate work even if you have aggro due to soloing, making it much easier to get double assassinates off.

[draven1]

Dex based rogues could still take kta and spend less action points and require one less feat. That frees up more action points for better dps than you would get from a slightly bigger kta. More sneak attack in the racial tree and/or no mercy will be provide much more dps overall.

This is basically a big dps boost to rogues, but the more I think about it the more I am ok with giving rogues a bigger boost. They still will be underperforming compared to bards, paladins and barbarians.

Will dex assasins spend less action on harper even if they take KtA? No, I dont think so at all.
Don't forget int assassins get +4 int from harper tree with KtA, some melee powers.
Because dex assassins will want to get more upper tier dex for that harper tree for more DC as like int assassins.
So, both int & dex assassins will have same AP used in harper tree.


More sneak attack & no mercy? How can you get those unless you dont take KtA & more dex from harper?

Dex builds can just save a feat, that's all. Int builds will have better DPS, skills.
Trap skills will shine for harder contents soon.

Int based assassins might have better synergy with mechanic enhancement. As like dex assassins will have better synergy with acrobat enhancement.