Rogue - Assassin Changes

[redoubt]

I think you are underestimating (or purposely ignoring) the many advantages INT has right now. It's so lop-sided in favor of INT it isn't even funny.

The advantage of INT is that it is in the assassinate DC formula.

Saying that you need a high INT to be a trapper is false. I played a ranger rogue with only 1 rogue level for years and a starting INT of only 14. And you only need 4 skills, all of which are 1 point per rank for a rogue. A rogue gets 8 per level base, so even if you dumped INT at 8, you would still get 7 per level. Does INT help boost search and DD? Yes. You could also take the saved harper action points and put them into search & disable enhancements. You could (not that I think its a great idea) use the free feat from not taking insightful reflexes to boost you skills. Having all the social skills on your rogue is handy, but hardly game altering.

Do you really want to go down the road of completely equalizing DEX and INT across the board?

No, I don't. I'd be happy to keep things unique. That is part of why I think bringing DEX into assassinate is a bad idea.

I think they should each retain some unique strengths and weaknesses, so that there are builds that are somewhat differentiated and play a little differently but are still viable. Build variety is good.

If having everything in the assassin tree is good for DEX builds, why is it bad to have all those same things available to INT builds? Lets go back in time...

Many of us asked for INT to hit/damage in the assassin tree. What we got was the Harper tree instead. Points had to be pulled out of the racial and rogue trees to go over to Harper to get what should have been in assassin from the start. My guess is, and maybe a dev will comment, that it was considered too powerful to get the same stat for hit/damage/DC all in the same tree. DEX to assassinate would set up the same level of power as adding INT to the to/damage core enhancements, but would be cheaper and free up a feat.

IF INT to hit and damage move to the assassin cores, you would have a more realistic choice to make. Now you can choose DEX and get:
- higher DC
- free feat
- less skill points
- slightly lower trapskills (but still high enough to not crit fail.)

Or you could choose to go INT and get
- workable, but lower DC
- have to spend a feat on reflex save
- get loads more skill points to spend on things like haggle and intimidate (party crashers and crucible, right?)
- high enough trap skills to have critical successes on a 2.

If they don't want to add INT to hit/damage in assassin to continue to get people to buy Harper, so be it. But adding DEX to assassinate, and not addressing INT to hit/damage within the assassin tree, will eclipse INT builds. Even if a dex build still invests in Harper, you don't have to invest as much, so you save AP. You also free up a feat from not taking Insightful Reflexes. That is significant

The problem is a DEX-based pure assassin in today's game is a "flavor" build only, and that's just not right. It's not only well behind INT-based but also behind STR-based.

There are no DEX based assassins because the DC stat is INT. Its like saying there are no STR based sorcerers.

[Nothingtoseehere]

The advantage of INT is that it is in the assassinate DC formula.

Saying that you need a high INT to be a trapper is false. I played a ranger rogue with only 1 rogue level for years and a starting INT of only 14. And you only need 4 skills, all of which are 1 point per rank for a rogue. A rogue gets 8 per level base, so even if you dumped INT at 8, you would still get 7 per level. Does INT help boost search and DD? Yes. You could also take the saved harper action points and put them into search & disable enhancements. You could (not that I think its a great idea) use the free feat from not taking insightful reflexes to boost you skills. Having all the social skills on your rogue is handy, but hardly game altering.



No, I don't. I'd be happy to keep things unique. That is part of why I think bringing DEX into assassinate is a bad idea.



If having everything in the assassin tree is good for DEX builds, why is it bad to have all those same things available to INT builds? Lets go back in time...

Many of us asked for INT to hit/damage in the assassin tree. What we got was the Harper tree instead. Points had to be pulled out of the racial and rogue trees to go over to Harper to get what should have been in assassin from the start. My guess is, and maybe a dev will comment, that it was considered too powerful to get the same stat for hit/damage/DC all in the same tree. DEX to assassinate would set up the same level of power as adding INT to the to/damage core enhancements, but would be cheaper and free up a feat.

IF INT to hit and damage move to the assassin cores, you would have a more realistic choice to make. Now you can choose DEX and get:
- higher DC
- free feat
- less skill points
- slightly lower trapskills (but still high enough to not crit fail.)

Or you could choose to go INT and get
- workable, but lower DC
- have to spend a feat on reflex save
- get loads more skill points to spend on things like haggle and intimidate (party crashers and crucible, right?)
- high enough trap skills to have critical successes on a 2.

If they don't want to add INT to hit/damage in assassin to continue to get people to buy Harper, so be it. But adding DEX to assassinate, and not addressing INT to hit/damage within the assassin tree, will eclipse INT builds. Even if a dex build still invests in Harper, you don't have to invest as much, so you save AP. You also free up a feat from not taking Insightful Reflexes. That is significant



There are no DEX based assassins because the DC stat is INT. Its like saying there are no STR based sorcerers.

Exactly. All the benefits would be on dex builds. I think you are all over estimating KtA as well. If you still grab it on dex build you will get 10 less damage from it tops, which you can more than make up for with either no mercy/ improved defensive roll from acrobat or if you are a halfling or shadar-kai you can grab the bonus dodge/dogde cap and SA dice to also make up the small damage drop from a temporary boost and also gain defences on top of that. Not to mention the feat you get back.

Dex is in no way a dump stat for assassins in the current game. It boosts your hide and move silently which is basically the secondary DC on Assassinate anyway so really Assassinate already has dex and int in its DC formula and the proposed idea lets you swap it to just dex. (My assassin runs with Dex as 2nd highest stat for this reason, and sneaking is fun until you get left behind).



So you want to put dex builds back on the table? Put them as the higher DPS build again. Add to capstone: Your SA damage now benefits from an extra % of melee power based on your dex (mod, 2xmod, or score, etc.).
ie. say I have 70 dex SA dmg now scales with 130%, 160% or 170% or whatever. Since it seems you arent keen on putting any damage boost into assassin as a straight thing for all this is another way to boost assasssin DPS and put dex builds as an option for those who want to play them, the DPS rog. I imagine I just swung the pendulum way too far in that example since dex already saves on AP and feats and stats allowing for much greater versatility, defences and damage vs higher assassinate DC on an int build.
Really it should just be a passive bonus to damage regardless of stats or make it use higher of dex, int or str (str used to be DPS king of rog so we can't leave them out if we talking int v dex!!!!!!) :P

Basically letting Dex to assassinate DC completely kills Int based assassins and this suggestion has made me wonder why I should bother playing an Assassin if you are going to do this. It will kill the class as we know it completely and make assassinating into something of an "easy button".

If you want to boost assassinate open it up to orange named mobs, bypass db/dw and give special debuff to red/purple named. Dex to assassinate is not the answer and will ruin the PrE.



And the reducing enemy MP from poison might not be a good idea now I think about it more simply because the 200 PRR guy next to you also gets his damage reduced and if anything it should be increased on him. Some way to make this calculated for only you or just light armour wearers (I got nothing against party buffs/abilities but, having not looked into how it would all stack I am concerned about it working with the high PRR toon next to you who is already basically invincible. If this doesn't have much effect there ignore this )

[brzytki]

People think of KtA as if it's still pre-Harper tree era. KtA was so good because previously assassins didn't have INT to-hit, INT to damage or any extra damage from their main stat. But after Harper, they suddenly got a major boost in DPS department.

But if we switch from INT to DEX, we get to-hit and damage for free from the first to cores. That leaves KtA. Switching from INT to DEX doesn't mean we lose all the benefits of KtA, the DEX assassin will still use it. He will have like 30 points lower INT than before, meaning 15 mod, meaning 7-8 damage. But we already established that the DEX based rogue will have 8-10 higher sustainable DEX than INT today on live (capstone, Yugo, shadow dodge, insightful, race, ED and/or completionist), closing the DPS difference to 1-3 points of damage per hit. And we haven't even talked about all other benefits of freeing APs and a feat, like gaining more dodge, defensive roll, higher reflex save and so on.

[CThruTheEgo]

But we already established that the DEX based rogue will have 8-10 higher sustainable DEX than INT today on live (capstone, Yugo, shadow dodge, insightful, race, ED and/or completionist)

This is not correct. Both would get +2 dex in the capstone so neither has an advantage. Both can use Yugo pots, the difference is dex based gets +50% fortification. I currently use Yugo pots on my assassin and do not have a problem with the fort penalty. This may free up a twist slot for dex based by not having to twist brace for impact. Both have a racial option for a 20 starting stat, so there's no racial advantage to dex based. The top two optimal races for an int based assassin currently are human or drow. Drow can get 20 starting int and 2 more from the racial tree. Human is only 3 stat points behind either an int or dex based race but also gets damage boost. If anything, dex based simply increases the number of optimal racial options for an assassin. I currently invest in all 6 points of int in the ED and I don't miss anything in shadowdancer by doing so, so this is a wash also. Currently, completionist is an option on either human or drow. It is easier on a human due to the extra feat, but is also possible on a drow. See nokowi's build for a drow completionist assassin. If you're not concerned with fitting in epic toughness, as I am, then there is plenty of room for completionist on any race, and a completionist has less reason to need/want epic toughness.

So the only difference is 3 dex from shadow dodge and 1 insightful. That's only 2 DCs. The insightful also creates a lot of gearing problems as I mentioned in a post above. Tenser's is not sustainable as a damage boost, but could be used to boost DCs when needed. How dex based affects what is lost/gained in how AP are spent is difficult to determine at this point because of the changes to the trees. That is a possibility I will try to tackle when I adapt my build to dex based. I'll post the result here so we can get an actual comparison between an int based and dex based build.

[Fedora1]

You assassinate 100% in endgame? I doubt it. It's easy to get a 100% success rate on coup de grace with a dc in the 100s... but not so much on assassinate.

Coup de Gras is either Ranged OR Melee - Assassinate is both.
Coup de Gras is only against helpless foes - Assassinate is against any.

Coup de Gras does 3(W) and Assassinate does 10d6 extra SA.

I think they look fairly even.

[brzytki]

Coup de Gras is either Ranged OR Melee - Assassinate is both.
Coup de Gras is only against helpless foes - Assassinate is against any.

Coup de Gras does 3(W) and Assassinate does 10d6 extra SA.

I think they look fairly even.

I see you have on idea what you are talking about.

1. Assassinate is only melee.
2. Coup de Grace works on a whole of a lot more mobs than assassinate.
3. It's not only helpless state, read up.
4. That SA, even if it works cause I've always had a hard time seeing it, is on a failed save and that means the mob and the ones around it now see you and all are on you if you solo.
5. It's the DC perhaps fairly even? Bards can easily have 40 points higher DC - making it the highest DC insta-kill in game with really low investment that no mob can save against.

[brzytki]

...snip...

What you're written is true. But only for your build. You are looking at it from the perspective of your build. The build that has nearly max practical INT. You might only get 2 more DC if you switch to DEX, but others that don't run with Yugo INT pots, all 6 INT from ED will have another 2 DC to their builds and a free twist slot among other things, while the only drawbacks would be at most 3-4 points of damage per hit less and skill points.

Edit: And yes, it would increase the number of optimal builds but all of them would be DEX based. That's why I said that they can make assassinate DEX based only anyway if they want to change it.

Edit 2: Look at it this way. Your build is one of a very few top INT builds that have both top DC and top DPS. If your build is better off being DEX based, then all other builds have all the more reason to switch to DEX.

[CThruTheEgo]

What you're written is true. But only for your build. You are looking at it from the perspective of your build. The build that has nearly max practical INT. You might only get 2 more DC if you switch to DEX, but others that don't run with Yugo INT pots, all 6 INT from ED will have another 2 DC to their builds and a free twist slot among other things, while the only drawbacks would be at most 3-4 points of damage per hit less and skill points.

Edit: And yes, it would increase the number of optimal builds but all of them would be DEX based. That's why I said that they can make assassinate DEX based only anyway if they want to change it.

Of course I'm looking at it from the perspective of my build because there's no point in comparing builds that don't actually exist. There are a whole host of details that need to be worked out (such as gearing, enhancements, etc.) to know what the actual pros and cons are. My build currently is how I would (and do) build an int based assassin. The dex based version I'll post in this thread will be how I would build a dex based assassin. By all means, post your versions of a fully detailed int and dex based assassin with the new changes so we can see what the trade offs really are. Otherwise you're just dealing with theoreticals and maybe not seeing all the implications that you would with all the details worked out.

The point in my previous post is that many of the bonuses you cited as benefiting dex only are also available to an int based build. Yugo pots, ED stat points, capstone, completionist, and racial stats are available to both equally. I tend to focus on damage in most of my builds, so that is an advantage that int has over dex that I would probably favor, but I won't really know what all the advantages and disadvantages are until all the details are worked out.

A dex build is also going to have to go for nearly max dex if they want assassinate to be effective in endgame, so I'm not sure why you mention that my build is near max int as though that's not standard for an endgame assassin.

[CThruTheEgo]

Edit 2: Look at it this way. Your build is one of a very few top INT builds that have both top DC and top DPS. If your build is better off being DEX based, then all other builds have all the more reason to switch to DEX.

I'm not convinced that my build would be better off going dex based, but I'm not convinced it wouldn't be either. I won't really know until I work out the details, and neither will anyone else know whether dex or int is better for theirs, for that matter. That's why I'm going to take the time to compare the two actual versions.

My experience has shown me that +2 DCs are not needed, so I don't see that as an advantage so much as it is an easier entry into an endgame assassin for people without one already maxed out. I don't think that's a bad thing either because assassins are still going to require a great deal of skill to play effectively so it's not going to create an "easy button." Those who want an easy button instakiller will still have bards to choose.

[Fedora1]

1. Assassinate is only melee.

My bad, I thought it was one of the proposed changes in the OP. Not sure where I got that.

2. Coup de Grace works on a whole of a lot more mobs than assassinate.

Such as?

3. It's not only helpless state, read up.

Okay sorry if I used the DDO term for helpless incorrectly. It works on Fascinated, Sleeping, Dancing, Dazed, Tripped, Mesmerized, Paralyzed, Petrified, or Stunned enemies.

My point was Assassinate works on enemies that are perfectly whole.

4. That SA, even if it works cause I've always had a hard time seeing it, is on a failed save and that means the mob and the ones around it now see you and all are on you if you solo.

The extra SA is when the mob successfully saves. Failed save means he is dead.

5. It's the DC perhaps fairly even? Bards can easily have 40 points higher DC - making it the highest DC insta-kill in game with really low investment that no mob can save against.

No, my point was assassinate does not require a mob that is stunned, tripped, paralyzed or whatever. The coup de gras DC is a lot higher, but beyond an extra 4-5 that the assassin can build up to is redundant. In other words, you can get a no fail save (or very close as IronClan pointed out) without it being 40 points higher.

I'm not into all the DDO math but 3(W) and 10d6 SA seemed close to me.

All those points (except my mistake on ranged) are why I said it looks close comparing coup de gras and assassinate to me.

[CThruTheEgo]

Okay sorry if I used the DDO term for helpless incorrectly. It works on Fascinated, Sleeping, Dancing, Dazed, Tripped, Mesmerized, Paralyzed, Petrified, or Stunned enemies.

My point was Assassinate works on enemies that are perfectly whole.

And assassinate requires being in sneak mode, which is more of a hindrance than those required for coup.

No, my point was assassinate does not require a mob that is stunned, tripped, paralyzed or whatever. The coup de gras DC is a lot higher, but beyond an extra 4-5 that the assassin can build up to is redundant. In other words, you can get a no fail save (or very close as IronClan pointed out) without it being 40 points higher.

Getting a mob into any one of those states is ridiculously easy. It's not a hindrance, drawback, or limitation in the slightest. Swashbuckler even has melee attack enhancements built into the tree to put mobs into that state, so you can trip then coup back to back. And while you're right that assassins don't need higher DCs, the bard does not have to go all out to get their instakill DC to effective numbers the way an assassin does, so they've got a lot more room for flexibility and variation.

All those points (except my mistake on ranged) are why I said it looks close comparing coup de gras and assassinate to me.

It's not even close, a swashbuckler is a much better instakiller. I've played maxed out versions of both (see my sig for each build) and there's no contest. The bard has better survivability, dps, healing (both self and group), damage mitigation, damage avoidance, utility, CC, party support, you name it. The only thing the bard lacks is trapping ability, but that can be done with 2 rogue levels and all of the advantages listed are not diminished significantly.

The difference is in their playstyle. The assassin playstyle is still unique to them alone and that is what draws me to them more than anything.

[Fedora1]

And assassinate requires being in sneak mode, which is more of a hindrance than those required for coup.

I agree improvements need to be made to sneak.

Getting a mob into any one of those states is ridiculously easy. It's not a hindrance, drawback, or limitation in the slightest.

I would disagree, although not to the point of saying it's "hard" to get them into that state, i wouldn't go as far as saying it's not a limitation or that it is ridiculously easy.

And while you're right that assassins don't need higher DCs, the bard does not have to go all out to get their instakill DC to effective numbers the way an assassin does, so they've got a lot more room for flexibility and variation.

That is actually a very good point.

It's not even close, a swashbuckler is a much better instakiller. I've played maxed out versions of both (see my sig for each build) and there's no contest. The bard has better survivability, dps, healing (both self and group), damage mitigation, damage avoidance, utility, CC, party support, you name it. The only thing the bard lacks is trapping ability, but that can be done with 2 rogue levels and all of the advantages listed are not diminished significantly.

I currently have both an assassin and a swash at cap too, and yes the bard is overall the much better of the two even factoring in my assassin's past lives vs a first life bard. My point was not about comparing the two classes, but comparing assassinate and coup de gras side-by-side, which admittedly did not take into account your point about investment to get good DC's for one vs the other.

I can admit when I'm wrong.

EDIT - Oh one other mistake I made, when I said "as IronClan pointed out" I meant as "CThruTheEgo" pointed out (regarding the DC's). That's what happens when I work 11 hour days on 4 hours sleep. lol

[brzytki]

Of course I'm looking at it from the perspective of my build because there's no point in comparing builds that don't actually exist. There are a whole host of details that need to be worked out (such as gearing, enhancements, etc.) to know what the actual pros and cons are. My build currently is how I would (and do) build an int based assassin. The dex based version I'll post in this thread will be how I would build a dex based assassin. By all means, post your versions of a fully detailed int and dex based assassin with the new changes so we can see what the trade offs really are. Otherwise you're just dealing with theoreticals and maybe not seeing all the implications that you would with all the details worked out.

The point in my previous post is that many of the bonuses you cited as benefiting dex only are also available to an int based build. Yugo pots, ED stat points, capstone, completionist, and racial stats are available to both equally. I tend to focus on damage in most of my builds, so that is an advantage that int has over dex that I would probably favor, but I won't really know what all the advantages and disadvantages are until all the details are worked out.

A dex build is also going to have to go for nearly max dex if they want assassinate to be effective in endgame, so I'm not sure why you mention that my build is near max int as though that's not standard for an endgame assassin.

Ok, maybe I should've been more clear about what I wanted to say. For people like you and me, who have almost every piece of gear that could help our builds, enough fate points, past lives, tomes, etc., for people at the peak of the mountain it might not be that obvious because we are already at top and we can easily compensate for a free feat, twist slot and so on. But when you go down the mountain and meet people who for example don't have +5 DEX tome, max fate points, need that feat and those APs, it's a no-brainer for them to switch to DEX.

Some of the bonuses I posted are indeed available fot INT as well. But some of them have serious drawbacks. Why lock yourself into using a twist slot for Brace and still having 10% less fortification when you can go DEX and have not only better fortification, to-hit but also a free twist slot. Same with ED stat points, some people like using Shadow Manipulation and so have 2 INT less on live. But when they'll switch to DEX they'll put those 4 ED points into 2 DEX.

Thing is they'll have the same or better DC than your build has now (when you stated that more DC isn't really needed) but with more options and fewer drawbacks.

Anyway, let's stop for now and resume when you post your DEX build. I would post mine but I only have my smartphone on me until the weekend so you'll have to wait for it a few days.

[brzytki]

...snip...

Other than my obvious mistake about the damage portion (i meant failed assassinate, not save), i'd second every single thing CThru said in response to that. I can only add that if you are trying to assassinate mid fight when there are many mobs around there is a chance a cleave or an arrow might hit you just as you were about to kill a mob pulling you out of sneak and assassinte goes on cooldown doing absolutely nothing.

About the mobs it works on: undead are a prime example. You can assassinate undead but you need luck, a lot of fort reduction and remove their SA immunity (assassin's trick or SD core 6).

[CThruTheEgo]

Ok, maybe I should've been more clear about what I wanted to say. For people like you and me, who have almost every piece of gear that could help our builds, enough fate points, past lives, tomes, etc., for people at the peak of the mountain it might not be that obvious because we are already at top and we can easily compensate for a free feat, twist slot and so on. But when you go down the mountain and meet people who for example don't have +5 DEX tome, max fate points, need that feat and those APs, it's a no-brainer for them to switch to DEX.

Well with some of the bonuses you mentioned, you gave me the impression that you were talking about an optimized endgame build. Completionist, for example, isn't going to be available to those further down the mountain. Yugo pots are also something the average player likely will not concern themselves with. Those players are also probably not going to be building for endgame, in which case optimization is not necessary. A current int based build that isn't built for endgame will have more flexibility now, for example. And while I realize that most players are not going to be playing a maxed out endgame build, I also think it is important to see what is possible when a build's full potential is realized. And at those extremes, I don't see a great deal of extra power in a dex based build, but I do see more room for variation. As of now, there is very little room for variation among optimized assassin builds.

Same with ED stat points, some people like using Shadow Manipulation and so have 2 INT less on live. But when they'll switch to DEX they'll put those 4 ED points into 2 DEX.

Well shadow manipulation is not a must have so if an int build is willing to sacrifice it, then the ED stat points are a wash. Alternatively, you could say that the int based has the flexibility of trading 1 DC for shadow manipulation. A dex build won't have the option of an effective DC for shadow manipulation.

Anyway, let's stop for now and resume when you post your DEX build. I would post mine but I only have my smartphone on me until the weekend so you'll have to wait for it a few days.

It may be a few days before I can post mine as well. It depends on when I can find the time.

I can only add that if you are trying to assassinate mid fight when there are many mobs around there is a chance a cleave or an arrow might hit you just as you were about to kill a mob pulling you out of sneak and assassinte goes on cooldown doing absolutely nothing.

I'd also add that you can even use coup with a scroll in your hand. Apparently bards are such good instakillers that they can give lethal papercuts.

While we're at it Sev, is there any chance that we can get it fixed so assassins can assassinate with a scroll in their hand also?

[slarden]

It's not even close, a swashbuckler is a much better instakiller. I've played maxed out versions of both (see my sig for each build) and there's no contest. The bard has better survivability, dps, healing (both self and group), damage mitigation, damage avoidance, utility, CC, party support, you name it. The only thing the bard lacks is trapping ability, but that can be done with 2 rogue levels and all of the advantages listed are not diminished significantly.

The difference is in their playstyle. The assassin playstyle is still unique to them alone and that is what draws me to them more than anything.

This is my observation as well comparing a non-maxed out swashbuckler to a fairly maxed-out rouge- swashbuckler wins at just about everything, but rogue is way more fun to play. I played 12 bard / 6 fighter / 2 rogue rather than 20 bard.

One thing I will point out with assassinate vs. coup is that it's fairly easy to kill 2 targets with assassinate since each dagger gets an attempt. You have to line it up and it's much harder against moving targets. Overall I would guess over the course of a dungeon a swashbuckler will end up with more insta-kills because they don't have the use restrictions a rogue has. I can sometimes go into sneak and assassinate in the middle of a big fight, but it's easily disrupted compared a swashbuckler.

[Chai]

And assassinate requires being in sneak mode, which is more of a hindrance than those required for coup.



Getting a mob into any one of those states is ridiculously easy. It's not a hindrance, drawback, or limitation in the slightest. Swashbuckler even has melee attack enhancements built into the tree to put mobs into that state, so you can trip then coup back to back. And while you're right that assassins don't need higher DCs, the bard does not have to go all out to get their instakill DC to effective numbers the way an assassin does, so they've got a lot more room for flexibility and variation.



It's not even close, a swashbuckler is a much better instakiller. I've played maxed out versions of both (see my sig for each build) and there's no contest. The bard has better survivability, dps, healing (both self and group), damage mitigation, damage avoidance, utility, CC, party support, you name it. The only thing the bard lacks is trapping ability, but that can be done with 2 rogue levels and all of the advantages listed are not diminished significantly.

The difference is in their playstyle. The assassin playstyle is still unique to them alone and that is what draws me to them more than anything.

Ive played maxed out versions of both too, and I do not concur that its "no contest". Its more of a preference in style in the way the game is played hammered into the culture of the community that plays it, than it is "easier"

The community is mostly into fast runs and or zergs (not the same thing, but both are fast). Bard insta kills favor the faster playstyle. If this game was so hard where pulling mobs back was the least risky way to play, people would see how viable assassins really are. What messes up the assassins ability to instakill at the level they really can is the speed and tenacity of play adopted by most other players which disallows a subterfuge, hunt and kill, non-direct confrontation playstyle. The common desire in builds is to optimize to be able to run in and kill, and burst out of melee range to heal when needed. Do your damage and get out. By the time an assassin can manipulate circumstances to their favor to use their insta kill the rest of the players are two rooms down further zerg plowing another next room.

Ruling playstyle out and being completely subjective however, one is not easier than the other. I can just as easily sneak up on a mob and bump it off as I can put some CC on it and bump it off. The vast majority of the players do not want to wait for the sneak method however.....

The culture of play in DDO does not favor the assassin playstyle. In terms of playstyle preference, run in, trip and kill > sneak in and kill.

That's the difference.

The reason bard has better survivability, dps, healing (both self and group), damage mitigation, damage avoidance etc....is because we are comparing 2015 bard with 2012 assassin. Comparing post revamp classes vs pre revamp classes is good to assess where the power of the pre revamp class should be after it gets its love.

[slarden]

And assassinate requires being in sneak mode, which is more of a hindrance than those required for coup.

Getting a mob into any one of those states is ridiculously easy. It's not a hindrance, drawback, or limitation in the slightest. Swashbuckler even has melee attack enhancements built into the tree to put mobs into that state, so you can trip then coup back to back. And while you're right that assassins don't need higher DCs, the bard does not have to go all out to get their instakill DC to effective numbers the way an assassin does, so they've got a lot more room for flexibility and variation.

It's not even close, a swashbuckler is a much better instakiller. I've played maxed out versions of both (see my sig for each build) and there's no contest. The bard has better survivability, dps, healing (both self and group), damage mitigation, damage avoidance, utility, CC, party support, you name it. The only thing the bard lacks is trapping ability, but that can be done with 2 rogue levels and all of the advantages listed are not diminished significantly.

The difference is in their playstyle. The assassin playstyle is still unique to them alone and that is what draws me to them more than anything.

Ruling playstyle out and being completely subjective however, one is not easier than the other. I can just as easily sneak up on a mob and bump it off as I can put some CC on it and bump it off. The vast majority of the players do not want to wait for the sneak method however.....

Be careful when turning the corner your nose grew quite large after this statement. I bolded the part that made the absolute most sense in your statement.

[redoubt]

For the crowd that thinks its okay to add DEX to assassinate, please answer this:

Would it be equally okay to add INT to hit/damage in the assassin cores?

[Chai]

Be careful when turning the corner your nose grew quite large after this statement. I bolded the part that made the absolute most sense in your statement.

Pick that definition apart all you want, my statement is correct. Assassinating is not really harder than coup as a play mechanic. The single biggest factor in why people say this, is the preferred playstyle of the vast majority being fast runs or zergs, which is less conducive to assassinating than it is for coup.

The play style which is completely subjective to the culture of this community, is what makes assassination tougher than coup. Not the game mechanics themselves.