Rogue - Assassin Changes

[redoubt]

If DEX is added to assassinate, then add:

1. Knife in the Darkness: INT to hit with daggers and kukris

2. Dagger in the Back: INT to damage with daggers and kukris

3. Executioner's Strike: Allow INT or DEX in the formula

Why? Adding dex to assassinate allows all those things to be done on one stat without requiring the Harper Tree. If you allow a DEX build access to all of that and the free Action Points from not buying INT to hit/damage over in Harper, then DEX will be the a clearly better build. By allowing ALL the abilities to choose between DEX and INT you preserve INT as an option.

[amsharkwei]

Assassnate DC now is 10+rogue level+INT mod+DEXmod

that's cool!

[Chaios]

~ How do people feel about making Shadow Dagger and Assassinate use the best of Intelligence or Dexterity in the DC formula for Dexterity based Assassins?

The only advantage a DEX build has over an INT build is the potential for more AC. If AC doesn't matter, then changing it that way wont matter, except to improve the DC for DEX builds, of course. I think changing the save from fortitude to reflex is a better way to keep the DC in a practical range for either type build.

[CThruTheEgo]

~ A sneaking assassin seems pretty quick to me, but I admittedly haven't played it in a group since we just finished putting it into Assassin. It will be good feedback from Lamannia.

Depending on the order in which the bonuses and penalties are calculated, a pure assassin with faster sneaking and the acrobat movement speed bonus will have either 90% or 95% base movement speed while sneaking. Either way, it's still behind the movement speed of any characters that are not sneaking, which means the assassin will inevitably lag behind the group if trying to stay in stealth mode for any length of time. This becomes even more pronounced when you consider that monks, barbs, fighters, paladins, and bards are all able to move at above 100% base movement speed. So basically a sneaking assassin will be slower than every other melee, significantly slower than the majority of them.

Assassins are the only build in the entire game with a built in incentive to sneak, so this is really just a quality of life issue for the assassin playstyle and removing the movement speed penalty for them would not create any imbalance whatsoever.

~ How do people feel about making Shadow Dagger and Assassinate use the best of Intelligence or Dexterity in the DC formula for Dexterity based Assassins? Would this make working synergies too easy?

I personally don't care if it remains int based, as I'll probably stay with that even if it is changed, but I don't see a problem with this. I think it will add some variety, in fact. Int based will still be the optimal choice for dps due to know the angles. Dex based will be able to get a slightly higher assassinate DC, but only by a couple DCs. Those extra DCs are not really needed btw, as it is already possible to get an effective assassinate DC for endgame content.

There is plenty of dex available in the harper tree so a dex based assassin will still have good incentive to invest there. But they will also be able to get dex from either/both of the other rogue trees, so they would have the flexibility to take advantage of whatever those trees have to offer an assassin after the revamp.

Tenser's scrolls are a very short duration and anyone who has tried to keep up displacement using scrolls knows the limitations of this. So I don't see this as being too powerful. And I don't see any particular synergies that dex based would offer to create an OP build.

~ The way Melee and Ranged Power works is this:

If MP is positive, the multiplier to damage is (100 + Rating)/100.
If MP is negative, the multiplier to damage is 100/(100 + Rating)

Note that many monsters do not currently have any Melee or Ranged Power. (I'd have to check if the champion buffs use MP and RP or just a straight damage boost.)

So for monsters which do not currently have any melee or ranged power, are they still coded to be affected by a melee power debuff? In other words, does the debuff from weakening strikes still reduce their damage output? If yes, then great. But if no, then this enhancement is too ineffective and we need something that will work against all mobs.

Thanks for keeping the discussion going. Has there been any talk about changing measure the foe to fade 1 stack every 6 seconds instead of all at once after 10 seconds?

[CThruTheEgo]

It might still not be enough to make assassinate usable in endgame content.

However, I really dont think its going to do much for either ability in terms of actually getting their DC up the margin it needs to be "plausibly ee"

...snip...

But it also wont address the problem with either shadow dagger or assassinate which is insufficient dc at the top difficulty/build regions, relative to both how the abilities play and how similar abilities work elsewhere.

Assassinate is usable and effective in endgame content. See the assassin in my sig for a build with a 74 DC assassinate, 69 without measure the foe.

There would be no reason to ever go with an int build if you did this. It's much easier to get a high dex vs. a high int. High Int requires more investment, AP, etc. you are creating massive ranged and multi-class synergies by doing that.

As long as assassinate is based off of rogue level, there are no multi-class synergies. Assassins are feat starved, so they aren't going to be investing in both melee and ranged. This change may allow a few more flavor builds that will do fine in heroics, but no multi-class assassin is going to be optimal in endgame.

[nibel]

~ How do people feel about making Shadow Dagger and Assassinate use the best of Intelligence or Dexterity in the DC formula for Dexterity based Assassins? Would this make working synergies too easy?

Know the Angles is a major DPS boost for Int-based characters. A Dex-based rogue probably will still have decent int because of skill points and trap skills (Search and Disable are Int-based). People are saying they will save a feat on Insightful Reflex, but that is not really bad, rogues are feat-starved. I believe dex-based assassination might have a better DC, but an int-based rogue will have better trap skills, and possibly better DPS because of KtA (need to run the numbers).

Also, I like options. More options are always good.

[CThruTheEgo]

I am not sure why "easy button" is a phrase used here. Dex based assassins will be a 2.5 stat build (Dex, Con, some Int). Even with the ease of being able to max Dex for hit/dmg/many skills/assassinate, I tend to think of easy button as meaning an OP combination of self-heals, PRR, DPS, CC...which even a max-Dex rogue isn't going to be guilty of having.

Agreed.

It used to require 24 AP to get int-to-hit, int-to-damage and now it takes 10 for just know the angles if you want to use it.

It's 24 AP to get all 4 int available from harper, but it's only 12 AP to get int to hit and damage, as it always has been. It's also only 8 AP to get know the angles. That has not changed either.

[hi_sa1nt]

Assassinate is usable and effective in endgame content. See the assassin in my sig for a build with a 74 DC assassinate, 69 without measure the foe.



As long as assassinate is based off of rogue level, there are no multi-class synergies. Assassins are feat starved, so they aren't going to be investing in both melee and ranged. This change may allow a few more flavor builds that will do fine in heroics, but no multi-class assassin is going to be optimal in endgame.

You assassinate 100% in endgame? I doubt it. It's easy to get a 100% success rate on coup de grace with a dc in the 100s... but not so much on assassinate.

[Ayseifn]

Can someone show me a break down of how high one can get their DEX?

I'm just not seeing the OP-ness of a DEX Assassin with DEX Assassinate. INT builds will always be good due to KtA anyway.

3 shadow dodge(most likely only a bonus of 1-2 as AP is really tight)
4 tenser's transformation
2 yugo pots without a hit to fortification
+11/+4 items are easier to slot

The scroll would mostly be used just for assassinate DCs, thing is though that and 2 from Shadow Dodge is the same bonus that you get from Shadowdancer so you can have the same DC or better than an INT assassin while rocking LD.

So INT will be better in heroic and DEX better in epic, if more +DEX is added to rogues then it just imbalances things further and TBH I'd really like to see some more DEX in acrobat because it's pretty weak compared to STR and maybe even INT as main stats.

[CThruTheEgo]

You assassinate 100% in endgame? I doubt it. It's easy to get a 100% success rate on coup de grace with a dc in the 100s... but not so much on assassinate.

In EE Stormhorns, where you'll still find the highest fort saves, I had an 80% success rate on the higher fort mobs (and that was with only 0-2 stacks of measure the foe, I don't keep it at max all the time but do drop into sneak as I get into position for an assassinate), 100% on higher fort mobs with full stacks of measure the foe, and 100% on other mobs. In any content below that, it's a 100% success rate. I would qualify that as effective.

[Dreppo]

If DEX is added to assassinate, then add:

1. Knife in the Darkness: INT to hit with daggers and kukris

2. Dagger in the Back: INT to damage with daggers and kukris

3. Executioner's Strike: Allow INT or DEX in the formula

Why? Adding dex to assassinate allows all those things to be done on one stat without requiring the Harper Tree. If you allow a DEX build access to all of that and the free Action Points from not buying INT to hit/damage over in Harper, then DEX will be the a clearly better build. By allowing ALL the abilities to choose between DEX and INT you preserve INT as an option.

Excellent suggestions. Continuing on with the theme...

4. Strategic Combat I: DEX mod to hit with any melee or missile weapon (not just daggers and kukris)

5. Know the Angles: DEX mod/2 extra damage and tactical DCs

6. Strategic Combat II: DEX mod to damage with any melee or missile weapon (not just daggers and kukris)

7. Shadow Manipulation: DEX mod to DC

8. Consume: DEX mod to DC

I think you are underestimating (or purposely ignoring) the many advantages INT has right now. It's so lop-sided in favor of INT it isn't even funny. Do you really want to go down the road of completely equalizing DEX and INT across the board? I think they should each retain some unique strengths and weaknesses, so that there are builds that are somewhat differentiated and play a little differently but are still viable. Build variety is good. The problem is a DEX-based pure assassin in today's game is a "flavor" build only, and that's just not right. It's not only well behind INT-based but also behind STR-based.

[HuneyMunster]

Dex assassinate would be at least 4 higher than int build with 3 from shadow dodge, 4 from tenser and 1 more insightful from Mystic Eidolons. You could even take just 2 dex from harper and take Cartwheel Charge for 2 dex for 30secs after tumbling and gain another 6 max dodge bonus with

'Tumbler: You also gain +2 to maximum Dodge.'
'Kip Up: You also gain +2 to maximum Dodge.'
'Cartwheel Charge: Passive: You also gain +2 to maximum Dodge.'
added to:
'Light Armor Mastery: While wearing light armor you gain 2/4/6 to maximum dexterity bonus'

Also defensive roll would become a great feat for assassins as it shouldn't be too difficulty to get about 90+ reflex saves at cap for so will most likely only take half dmg at when at below 50% hp when its really needed and you didn't make a dodge, incorporeal or concealment to avoid.

It would also make Shadar-Kai more appealing as a choice for assassin.

[slarden]

It's 24 AP to get all 4 int available from harper, but it's only 12 AP to get int to hit and damage, as it always has been. It's also only 8 AP to get know the angles. That has not changed either.

Yes you are right I was including all 4 Int in my original calculation for 24 and Know the Angles is only 8 total - I was including dex from the core for a total 10 and I should have kept going and added another dex from tier 2 to bring the total to 12 pts total for 2 dx + know the angles and a few other benefits. I should have stated that more clearly that I was also trying to optimize stats also.

Tenser's I wouldn't keep scrolled on all the time. I would use it as a consumable when I needed a higher DC. It's not a problem to take 2 seconds to scroll tensers before an assassinate if I need the DC, but I agree I am not going to bother casting it in the middle of combat. I am sure Tenser's will be included in every DC calculation we see with new dex-based assassins so it's worth counting as a situational DC boost. I never count yugo int pots because the -50% fortification penalty is too much, but the dex pots penalty is really no penalty at all so those definitely count as a boost.

[CThruTheEgo]

+11/+4 items are easier to slot

The neck is a valuable slot for an assassin, so Necklace of Mystic Eidolons has some trade offs. If the neck slot is taken, that leaves only the Mythic Muffled Veneer for +4 assassinate, which is a luck based grind and is not easy to obtain.

There's also the Shroud of Ardent which offers 30 PRR/MRR and heal amp 60. Those will not be easy to replace. Sheltering 30 is also on Mythic Minos, which is just as tedious to acquire as the Veneer and that competes with it, and Dumathoin's Bracers from a raid that is rarely run anymore. If you don't use one of those, you have to lose some PRR/MRR. The bracers also compete for the Epic Ethereal Bracers which are one source for deadly 10 and, more importantly, insight saves 4 which can help to push a rogue's will save into usable levels to take advantage of slippery mind. So I don't think gearing will be easy on a dex based assassin.

[slarden]

Unless it changed recently,

I always used to get +2/+4/+6 dex from shadow dodge and not +1/+2/+3. This has been brought up on the forums many times and the devs have never come out and said which is right.

It's been this way for as long as I can remember and the devs must have known about it for a long time.

People keep counting it as only +3 in calcs, but it gives +6 unless that changed recently.

[Dreppo]

People keep counting it as only +3 in calcs, but it gives +6 unless that changed recently.

It is changing in the enhancement pass. Look at the Thief-Acrobat thread for details.

[slarden]

It is changing in the enhancement pass. Look at the Thief-Acrobat thread for details.

Ah ok didn't notice that. Thank you.

[Ayseifn]

The neck is a valuable slot for an assassin, so Necklace of Mystic Eidolons has some trade offs. If the neck slot is taken, that leaves only the Mythic Muffled Veneer for +4 assassinate, which is a luck based grind and is not easy to obtain.

There's also the Shroud of Ardent which offers 30 PRR/MRR and heal amp 60. Those will not be easy to replace. Sheltering 30 is also on Mythic Minos, which is just as tedious to acquire as the Veneer and that competes with it, and Dumathoin's Bracers from a raid that is rarely run anymore. If you don't use one of those, you have to lose some PRR/MRR. The bracers also compete for the Epic Ethereal Bracers which are one source for deadly 10 and, more importantly, insight saves 4 which can help to push a rogue's will save into usable levels to take advantage of slippery mind. So I don't think gearing will be easy on a dex based assassin.

Good points, I'm still hunting for the elusive Mythic Muffled Veneer.

[HuneyMunster]

The neck is a valuable slot for an assassin, so Necklace of Mystic Eidolons has some trade offs. If the neck slot is taken, that leaves only the Mythic Muffled Veneer for +4 assassinate, which is a luck based grind and is not easy to obtain.

There's also the Shroud of Ardent which offers 30 PRR/MRR and heal amp 60. Those will not be easy to replace. Sheltering 30 is also on Mythic Minos, which is just as tedious to acquire as the Veneer and that competes with it, and Dumathoin's Bracers from a raid that is rarely run anymore. If you don't use one of those, you have to lose some PRR/MRR. The bracers also compete for the Epic Ethereal Bracers which are one source for deadly 10 and, more importantly, insight saves 4 which can help to push a rogue's will save into usable levels to take advantage of slippery mind. So I don't think gearing will be easy on a dex based assassin.

You could drop Field Optics for Epic Mentau's Goggles for Seeker, drop Consuming Darkness for Beholder Ring for int and use Iron Mits for heal amp and vitality 40 instead of Gloves of the Master Illusionist and slot +2 int augment. This just leaves PRR/MRR and as far as I know best augment is only 14.

[CThruTheEgo]

Good points, I'm still hunting for the elusive Mythic Muffled Veneer.

As am I, although I haven't been putting much effort into it recently because I've been focused on another character.

You could drop Field Optics for Epic Mentau's Goggles for Seeker, drop Consuming Darkness for Beholder Ring for int and use Iron Mits for heal amp and vitality 40 instead of Gloves of the Master Illusionist and slot +2 int augment. This just leaves PRR/MRR and as far as I know best augment is only 14.

Yeah that's an interesting option. When I get some time in the next day or two, I'm going to go through all the details, including gear, of changing my build from int based to dex based, just to see what the actual results would be.

EDIT: PRR/MRR augments go up to +16. Also, PRR/MRR 24 is on the Guardian's Ring from What Goes Up end reward.