Rogue - Assassin Changes

[dunklezhan]

~ A sneaking assassin seems pretty quick to me, but I admittedly haven't played it in a group since we just finished putting it into Assassin. It will be good feedback from Lamannia.

~ How do people feel about making Shadow Dagger and Assassinate use the best of Intelligence or Dexterity in the DC formula for Dexterity based Assassins? Would this make working synergies too easy?

~ The way Melee and Ranged Power works is this:

If MP is positive, the multiplier to damage is (100 + Rating)/100.
If MP is negative, the multiplier to damage is 100/(100 + Rating)

Note that many monsters do not currently have any Melee or Ranged Power. (I'd have to check if the champion buffs use MP and RP or just a straight damage boost.)

Sev~

Do you mean: their MP/RP is 0, or do you mean 'they are unaffected by RP/MP'. I mean, I assume the former, as the second would seem... worrisome.

[slarden]

You're talking about 3 or 4 points of modifier.... I am talking about 12 or 13 points of modifier...

I've literally already min maxed past where you're currently stopped at. Not meaning this to sound insulting I was also stopped where you are for a while. In fact I had an discussion (ElisDee was involved and may remember the thread I am talking about) and during the process of the discussion weighing the options (or considering the angles as it were) took me from DEX based staff builds using the not WAI +6 Shadow Dodge, to all in for INT. My Current Staff build is INT based because DEX would have been significantly lower DPS.

I am not insulted I read nothing in your posts to indicate you have more understanding on the matter than I do. I think you are missing too many obvious benefits and I don't mean that to be insulting.

People wouldn't be asking for significant power creep if they weren't planning to use it - that is for certain.

With that said - if they give me the easy button I will take it - I am just not requesting it.

[slarden]

Disable is INT-based, not DEX-based. So going DEX-based makes both your search and disable (the two key trapping skills) go down, while open goes up -- but lock DCs are so low that most people don't bother maxing it.

you are correct but I have never failed on any of these skills and I don't think going dex vs. int will make a difference.

[Hafeal]

But first and immediate thoughts are generally based on intuition and not objectivity.

Absolutely, which is why I reserve the right to change my opinion at any time.

[Vyrzain]

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On the subject of… “Shadow Dagger and Assassinate use the best of Intelligence or Dexterity”… and more from a Role-Playing angle.
If you do this you are saying that Assassinating someone is not always done by practice / learned skill BUT because he / she has hand-eye coordination and agility?

I am in the camp that Intelligence only should be the mark of a good Assassin and also fear another “easy button and power creep” but I will not hinder others from the Dex type of build.

[dualscissors]

.

On the subject of… “Shadow Dagger and Assassinate use the best of Intelligence or Dexterity”… and more from a Role-Playing angle.
If you do this you are saying that Assassinating someone is not always done by practice / learned skill BUT because he / she has hand-eye coordination and agility?

I am in the camp that Intelligence only should be the mark of a good Assassin and also fear another “easy button and power creep” but I will not hinder others from the Dex type of build.

I am not sure why "easy button" is a phrase used here. Dex based assassins will be a 2.5 stat build (Dex, Con, some Int). Even with the ease of being able to max Dex for hit/dmg/many skills/assassinate, I tend to think of easy button as meaning an OP combination of self-heals, PRR, DPS, CC...which even a max-Dex rogue isn't going to be guilty of having.

[brzytki]

~ A sneaking assassin seems pretty quick to me, but I admittedly haven't played it in a group since we just finished putting it into Assassin. It will be good feedback from Lamannia.

It's nowhere near quick. Please go do a quest with a group of people and do take with you classes that got movement speed boost.

~ How do people feel about making Shadow Dagger and Assassinate use the best of Intelligence or Dexterity in the DC formula for Dexterity based Assassins? Would this make working synergies too easy?

I'm not a fan. Skill points aside, going DEX would be clearly superior. First, you don't need to burn a feat for Insightful Reflexes. If you don't have +5 DEX tome and had to put a lvl up in DEX to qualify for ISA you'll get your point back. Then we have some APs you can take out of Harper and spend somewhere else, preferably in acrobat tree for Shadow Dodge, No Mercy and/or Defensive Roll. Assassinate DC will be higher for DEX based builds, as some races can start with 20 DEX, Tenser's, Shadow Dodge, Yugo pots(not many people use INT Yugo pots because of -50% fortification penalty but there is practically no penalty in DEX Yugo pots, it's also easier to slot DEX item than an INT item while leveling (meaning there are better-suited rogue items with DEX). Sure, if you actually play in SD you might miss Shadow Manipulation but you'll get 4 ED points to use on something else, like another DEX and/or Executioners Strike.

The way Melee and Ranged Power works is this:

If MP is positive, the multiplier to damage is (100 + Rating)/100.
If MP is negative, the multiplier to damage is 100/(100 + Rating)

Note that many monsters do not currently have any Melee or Ranged Power. (I'd have to check if the champion buffs use MP and RP or just a straight damage boost.)

Sev~

I'm curious, so you DO know the formulas but you still said in your previous post that we'll get 20% damage reduction. The max you can get from these formulas is 17% for a monster going from 10 MP to -10 MP. The more MP a monster has the less of a reduction it is, for example it's only 13% reduction in damage if we go from 50 to 30 MP. So I guess I'm really glad that not many monsters have any MP to begin with and hope you won't be adding much of it to the future monsters.

[Silverleafeon]

~ A sneaking assassin seems pretty quick to me, but I admittedly haven't played it in a group since we just finished putting it into Assassin. It will be good feedback from Lamannia.

Thank you for listening to me on that point.

~ How do people feel about making Shadow Dagger and Assassinate use the best of Intelligence or Dexterity in the DC formula for Dexterity based Assassins? Would this make working synergies too easy?

I love synergies as they promote more variety in builds which leads to the rich complex character building process we have that is so like the ever popular Magic the Gathering deck building process.

Go ahead, using dex or int sounds great in this situation.

Note that many monsters do not currently have any Melee or Ranged Power. (I'd have to check if the champion buffs use MP and RP or just a straight damage boost.)

Sev~

Melee and Ranged power is more of a heroic thing (better left basically to toons or possibly very rare mobs).

[brzytki]

...allow DEX to not sink totally into the realm of best dump stat with Wisdom, although I suspect DEX is already in that realm...

How can DEX be a dump stat now when rogues need at least some investment to get TWF feats and ISA? Unless you mean that after a certain threshold is hit you don't invest in it anymore?

You guys see that screen shot of the guy doing three 700+ point crits at level 10? See Know the Angles on his hotbar?

Yes, and I see a helpless dummy, damage boost and 15 stacks of archers focus. Your point being?

[slarden]

Thank you for listening to me on that point.

What is your reason for not wanting assassins to keep up with party members while in sneak mode? I am confused why you are not ok with something that adds no power and just makes group player easier for rogues but you are ok with massive power creep by letting assassins use a dex modifier? That just makes no sense to me.

[IronClan]

I am not insulted I read nothing in your posts to indicate you have more understanding on the matter than I do. I think you are missing too many obvious benefits and I don't mean that to be insulting.

People wouldn't be asking for significant power creep if they weren't planning to use it - that is for certain.

With that said - if they give me the easy button I will take it - I am just not requesting it.

Actually people could be aware that Dex is already becoming devalued in the current meta and be asking for it because it helps Dex be a more viable option. Not to mention that is fits to have the motor skills of an assassin (hitting the vital spot) be just as vital to killing as intellect (knowing where the vital spot is) You can train a dumb but deft assassin to hit the same place every time, Not sure you can make a smart but clumsy assassin hit that same spot regardless of knowing where he's supposed to strike.

As I said you are talking about gaining 3 or 4 modifier over the basic stat number, and that's with annoying tensors scrolls. I am talking about gaining 12 or 13 modifier over the same basic stat number. It can't be broken down more simply than that. And I am not even arguing with you giving you +4 insightful item when there's light armor with +4 INT. Because I don't need to deal in fractional increases, I'm literally tripling up what a Dex user can achieve with Shadow Dodge (1.5 mod rounded down when they make it WAI) and Tensors (3 mod).

You can also break this down with max Dex and a +7 bonus damage mod from KtA with 40 INT, and get close (within about 1 damage mod), but you're still behind and you're still scrolling Tensors constantly to do it. It does save you 2AP to do this, but regardless it's still less DPS and the more finicky loss of DPS swapping to scroll all the time. If you're going to go the "annoyingly short buffs and clickies" rout you might as well go STR (if we're including other rogues in this discussion) where you will get better damage and better options, including the ability to stun stuff with tactical DC's.

Once they make Shadow Dodge WAI, DEX is third place in this discussion sadly, (it is arguably second place with STR at the moment but will fall off when 3 mod becomes 1.5 mod rounded to 1) making it an option for Assassins is therefore totally sensible, because it's not even a particularly good option for non Assassin's right now.

Now all that said I don't have a problem with trade offs, and the Dex Based Assassin would have a better Assassinate DC by about 3 or 4, the trade off is he would have slightly lower DPS. Nothing wrong with tradeoffs. Especially being as Shadow Dancer has a few abilities which work only with INT or only with DEX. So there are some more choices that must be made with respect to DEX versus INT. More trade offs.

Doh LD doesn't have DEX pips never mind... coulda sworn

[IronClan]

Yes, and I see a helpless dummy, damage boost and 15 stacks of archers focus. Your point being?

My point being he's INT based, not DEX based... Thought that was obvious...

[slarden]

Actually people could be aware that Dex is already becoming devalued in the current meta and be asking for it because it helps Dex be a more viable option. Not to mention that is fits to have the motor skills of an assassin (hitting the vital spot) be just as vital to killing as intellect (knowing where the vital spot is) You can train a dumb but deft assassin to hit the same place every time, Not sure you can make a smart but clumsy assassin hit that same spot regardless of knowing where he's supposed to strike.

As I said you are talking about gaining 3 or 4 modifier over the basic stat number, and that's with annoying tensors scrolls. I am talking about gaining 12 or 13 modifier over the same basic stat number. It can't be broken down more simply than that. And I am not even arguing with you giving you +4 insightful item when there's light armor with +4 INT. Because I don't need to deal in fractional increases, I'm literally tripling up what a Dex user can achieve with Shadow Dodge (1.5 mod rounded down when they make it WAI) and Tensors (3 mod).

You can also break this down with max Dex and a +7 bonus damage mod from KtA with 40 INT, and get close (within about 1 damage mod), but you're still behind and you're still scrolling Tensors constantly to do it. It does save you 2AP to do this, but regardless it's still less DPS and the more finicky loss of DPS swaping to scroll all the time. If you're going to go the "annoyingly short buffs and clickies" rout you might as well go STR where you will get better damage and better options, including the ability to stun stuff.

Once they make Shadow Dodge WAI, DEX is third place in this discussion sadly, (it is arguably second place with STR at the moment but will fall off when 3 mod becomes 1.5 mod) making it an option for Assassins is therefore totally sensible.

It used to require 24 AP to get int-to-hit, int-to-damage and now it takes 10 for just know the angles if you want to use it. You only need 7 more points to take shadow dodge +Dex and that still leaves 7 points which is enough to add 2 more sneak attack dice in the halfing tree.

DPS is only moving one direction - up lol.

As for Tenser's you can use it when you need it against enemies with higher saves. You don't have to run it all the time. It's another bonus along with yugo pots which give you +4 net to hit on sneak attacks instead of the int pots that give -50% fortification. and I didn't use. Yugo pots you can safely run all the time for the dex bonus with no significant drawback.

I take what Turbine gives me. My feedback is that the dex option adds alot of power and that sneak speed bonus helps with group play without adding any power. Based on Silver's response, it sounds like Sev has a few people that are his sounding boards so I am not so sure it matters. As someone that plays a rogue I am not seeing how allowing me to sneak wihle in a party so I can keep up is game-breaking, but I definitely see alot of increased power with the dex option.

I just hope one thing - Sev isn't taking advice from people that don't seriously play a rogue and just calling it a day. I can't imagine anyone that spends serious time playing a rogue not understanding why better sneak speed is good for group play.

[brzytki]

As I said you are talking about gaining 3 or 4 modifier over the basic stat number, and that's with annoying tensors scrolls. I am talking about gaining 12 or 13 modifier over the same basic stat number. It can't be broken down more simply than that. And I am not even arguing with you giving you +4 insightful item when there's light armor with +4 INT. Because I don't need to deal in fractional I'm literally tripling up what a Dex user can achieve with Shadow Dodge (1.5 mod rounded down when they make it WAI) and Tensors (3 mod).

You can also break this down with max Dex and a +7 bonus damage mod from KtA with 40 INT, and get close (within about 1 damage mod), but you're still behind and you're still scrolling Tensors constantly to do it. It does save you 2AP to do this, but regardless it's still less DPS and the more finicky loss of DPS swaping to scroll all the time. If you're going to go the "annoyingly short buffs and clickies" rout you might as well go STR where you will get better damage and better options, including the ability to stun stuff.

Once they make Shadow Dodge WAI, DEX is third place in this discussion sadly, (it is arguably second place with STR at the moment but will fall off when 3 mod becomes 1.5 mod) making it an option for Assassins is therefore totally sensible.

I'm sorry but you are plain wrong if you think INT based assassins will be on par with DEX based ones after this change. Please read my previous post cause I'm writing from my phone and its a little hard for me to type it again.

The damage per hit difference will be low, I'd say not even 7 points it will be negligible in light of what you can gain.That +4 INT armor? Forget it unless you think +1 INT is really worth losing at least 10% dodge. Free feat? Higher reflex and higher chance to trigger Defensive Roll should you drop to 50% health? But the biggest issue why it won't matter its that you'll have 3-5 higher assassinate DC from higher DEX. While Sev repeatedly told us in this very thread that they don't want to give assassins any more DC.

[XodousRoC]

How can DEX be a dump stat now when rogues need at least some investment to get TWF feats and ISA? Unless you mean that after a certain threshold is hit you don't invest in it anymore?
Yes, and I see a helpless dummy, damage boost and 15 stacks of archers focus. Your point being?

No need for a helpless dummy to hit 700+ crits at lvl 10. Build a monksai, take iron strikes, run in master earth stance, and roll a 20 with an SoS in your hand...

[brzytki]

My point being he's INT based, not DEX based... Thought that was obvious...

So he got a few more damage points from KtA, like say 10 for example, which were added to his base damage. Which was then multiplied by his crit profile. Which was then multiplied by helplessness. Which was then multiplied by damage boost. Which was then multiplied by archers focus. See what I'm saying? It's not because he's INT based, it's because he stacked so many multipliers. I thought it was obvious...

[slarden]

How can DEX be a dump stat now when rogues need at least some investment to get TWF feats and ISA? Unless you mean that after a certain threshold is hit you don't invest in it anymore?
Yes, and I see a helpless dummy, damage boost and 15 stacks of archers focus. Your point being?

It's certainly not a dump stat as he claims. Anyone that plays a rogue assassin understand one key number for dex

21

You must have that before any gear, ship buffs, etc. to take improved sneak attack. I have to dump my con a bit to get my dex high enough.

[slarden]

So he got a few more damage points from KtA, like say 10 for example, which were added to his base damage. Which was then multiplied by his crit profile. Which was then multiplied by helplessness. Which was then multiplied by damage boost. Which was then multiplied by archers focus. See what I'm saying? It's not because he's INT based, it's because he stacked so many multipliers. I thought it was obvious...

Absolutely. It's the same reason divine might is used.

[HatsuharuZ]

How do people feel about making Shadow Dagger and Assassinate use the best of Intelligence or Dexterity in the DC formula for Dexterity based Assassins? Would this make working synergies too easy?

I'd say that allowing dexterity or intelligence for those DCs makes those two abilities more viable for a wider variety of races. So please, do this!

Also, could you do the same thing with the shadowdancer ED abilities? I feel that that ED is currently underutilized.

[Bolo_Grubb]

~ A sneaking assassin seems pretty quick to me, but I admittedly haven't played it in a group since we just finished putting it into Assassin. It will be good feedback from Lamannia.

~ How do people feel about making Shadow Dagger and Assassinate use the best of Intelligence or Dexterity in the DC formula for Dexterity based Assassins? Would this make working synergies too easy?


Sev~

My initial reaction is no don't do that, but maybe after I think about some I might change. My current assassin build does not have Shadow Dagger. And since my gear and build are based on Int, this change would not have any real affect on my character.

If it allows for more variety of builds then it could be a good thing.