Rogue - Assassin Changes

[amsharkwei]

Movement speed is reduced by 50% while sneaking, isn't it? So with another 50% from faster sneaking, that brings it up to 100%. Add in the movement speed bonus from acrobat which grants 1% per rogue level and a pure assassin should be sneaking at 120% base movement speed, right? Unless I'm wrong about the initial reduction of sneak, that should be perfect.

50%+50%=75% sir~!

[amsharkwei]

agree with random traps

but there is a problem is the spot skill,it's based on wisdom

an assassin rogue with INT build maybe have 95 search,but only 80 spot

Class feat "Trap Sense" need also add spot skill vs. trap

maybe some passive ability made automatically Search without penalty.

[General_Gronker]

but there is a problem is the spot skill,it's based on wisdom

That's not a problem, that's as it should be.

[Kawai]

This is a great point. It would be great if rogues can sneak at full speed. Maybe make it part of all 3 capstones.

+1
when enhncmnt pass first came, all sneak-speeds stacked.
it was relevant & loved by de masses.
-no longer did anyone hav ta wait on Rogue to disarm. Ditto w/ Mechanics quicker disarming.

it was a purely ascetic positive to the Class.

For whtvr reason, Devs rubbed chins & blurted out: "nah, lets nerf dat"!
-lame.

-------------------
thotz:
Assassinate cooldown should b around 10sec.
& yes, Sev, it SHOULD b usable during fray!

& the whole sneaking timer should reset @ 2/3 seconds, not 5.

DC's should b grown ta match EE as well.
Supposed 2b Epic Toons we're running around w/ afterall.

A Pure Rogue Assn should never b nerfed in abilities to perform tasks. Crazy.

-------------------

[Bobby88888]

Some comments:

~ The randomized traps in ToEE will probably make a trapper with a good Spot skill valuable. Especially on Epic Elite.

~ We are considering making Weakening Strikes reduce Melee Power of enemies with an Assassin's Mark by 10 + 1/2 Rogue level. That means a level 20 Rogue will be getting an extra 20% mitigation.

Yeah, I know I said we were going to hold off on further changes until Lamannia but we've been talking about the discussions on Rogue mitigation.

Sev~

This is brilliant news and well needed (on both points). Thank you.


I think assassinate ignoring DB/DW and being able to assassinate orange named mobs (providing you make the DC) as well as a bit of a sneak speed boost will go a long way to make Assassins more fun to play.



I also really think that we should get a little more damage, see prior posts for some possible solutions. Keep the damage Sneak Attack based but please.

[Saekee]

Movement speed is reduced by 50% while sneaking, isn't it? So with another 50% from faster sneaking, that brings it up to 100%. Add in the movement speed bonus from acrobat which grants 1% per rogue level and a pure assassin should be sneaking at 120% base movement speed, right? Unless I'm wrong about the initial reduction of sneak, that should be perfect.

I believe the calculation is as follows:
General movement speed and bonuses (here would be the acrobat bonus to movement speed) then half of this for faster sneaking. This has been my experience, anyway.

So the acrobat bonus will increase the sneak speed by 10% at rogue level 20.

I suggest that the movement speed bonus be increased another 1% per epic level, although it is not worth emphasizing.

[CThruTheEgo]

I believe the calculation is as follows:
General movement speed and bonuses (here would be the acrobat bonus to movement speed) then half of this for faster sneaking. This has been my experience, anyway.

So the acrobat bonus will increase the sneak speed by 10% at rogue level 20.

I suggest that the movement speed bonus be increased another 1% per epic level, although it is not worth emphasizing.

I believe slarden is correct, final sneak speed on a pure assassin with faster sneaking and the acrobat movement speed will be 90% base movement speed. So the acrobat boost will add 15% over what we have now. Here is the math:

currently on live:
100% base movement speed
*0.5 for sneak mode
=50% sneak speed
*1.5 for faster sneaking enhancement
=75% total sneak speed

proposed changes:
100% base movement speed
+20% from acrobat bonus on a level 20 rogue
=120% movement speed
*0.5 for sneak mode
=60% sneak speed
*1.5 for faster sneaking enhancement
=90% final sneak speed

I think that is how it would work, but this is DDO and I'm not sure that we have been told in what order they will apply, so you never know. If the acrobat bonus is added after the sneak mode penalty, that would make the final speed 95%. Either way it's less than 100% base movement speed and is behind each of the revamped classes who all have an increased speed.

It needs to be brought up to at least 100%. As others have suggested, removing faster sneaking altogether and adding a 10% reduction in the sneak speed penalty to each of the first five cores would negate the penalty altogether by level 18. That sounds about right to me.

[Severlin]

~ A sneaking assassin seems pretty quick to me, but I admittedly haven't played it in a group since we just finished putting it into Assassin. It will be good feedback from Lamannia.

~ How do people feel about making Shadow Dagger and Assassinate use the best of Intelligence or Dexterity in the DC formula for Dexterity based Assassins? Would this make working synergies too easy?

~ The way Melee and Ranged Power works is this:

If MP is positive, the multiplier to damage is (100 + Rating)/100.
If MP is negative, the multiplier to damage is 100/(100 + Rating)

Note that many monsters do not currently have any Melee or Ranged Power. (I'd have to check if the champion buffs use MP and RP or just a straight damage boost.)

Sev~

[slarden]

If changing the fort bypass makes it too difficult to adequately challenge HA/tower shield tank types, is there some sort of additional crit protection to be implemented? Maybe something with Defensive Roll or Imp Evasion? If the mob has bypass fort AND critical hits you have a 50% to roll with it and be pushed/jump back 10 feet and only take normal damage (not crit)

If they are trying to challenge heavy armor users with damage it would be far better to replace complete fort bypass with PRR/MRR debuff that reduces PRR/MRR. I don't think this would kill a tank if fortification is working and it would reduce the huge damage spikes on lower PRR characters.

Sev is talking about making EE Temple really hard which is great. But what does "really hard" mean? Hitting twice as hard as now?

Aside from the new champion buffs, a rogue with good fortification mitigates 50-75% of the damage from crits with fortification and maybe 35% or so from PRR. A higher PRR character mitigates 50-75% of the damage from crits with fortification and maybe 65% or so from PRR. This is why I think a PRR/MRR debuff makes more sense than a fortification bypass if the goal is to challenge all builds.

I read the devs say they don't think fort bypass is causing the damage spikes, but I am not understanding how they can say that unless fort bypass is working differently than I think. The last time I had a big damage spike and died it specifically said I was critically hit in the combat log and my fortification is over 150%. I didn't see the monster buff but if I am taking a crit I assume fort bypass has to be one of those.

[davmuzl]

~ How do people feel about making Shadow Dagger and Assassinate use the best of Intelligence or Dexterity in the DC formula for Dexterity based Assassins? Would this make working synergies too easy?

Since we can use int to damage from the harper tree anyway I don't think it would make a huge difference, maybe a small increase because halflings and shadar-kai have more dex. Just for flavor reasons I'd prefer if it kept only int for the DCs.

Something else I thought of would be to have items that increase poison DCs and make it the same effect that increases the assassinate DC.

edit: Since it is easier to get high dex from items this will simply mean that rogues will ignore the int option and go with dex. It might still not be enough to make assassinate usable in endgame content.

[IronClan]

~ How do people feel about making Shadow Dagger and Assassinate use the best of Intelligence or Dexterity in the DC formula for Dexterity based Assassins? Would this make working synergies too easy?

I like it, more options are always welcome IMO. Speaking of which Sev have you guys ruled out making the Assassinate DC Formula at least a little more flexible towards multiclassed assassins?

A Ninja Assassin for example is really not possible because any number of Monk levels crushes your assassinate DC to the tune of 1 DC per level multiclassed. I would really love to see Assassinate DC change to 20 + 1/2 Rogue levels. (2 levels = 1 DC or half the current penalty) I expect you guys have decided that you're okay with 20 rogue levels being necessary?

If we absolutely can't get a more flexible (not asking for higher DC's just more flexibility) can we consider putting a slightly weaker form of Assassinate into the Ninja Spy tree? Maybe as a high level core?

[slarden]

~ How do people feel about making Shadow Dagger and Assassinate use the best of Intelligence or Dexterity in the DC formula for Dexterity based Assassins? Would this make working synergies too easy?

There would be no reason to ever go with an int build if you did this. It's much easier to get a high dex vs. a high int. High Int requires more investment, AP, etc. you are creating massive ranged and multi-class synergies by doing that.

To me you are just adding an easy button and power creep by doing that. Not to mention, Shadowdancer has a dex-based ability that isn't as good as assassinate, but still if it was too good to give to int-builds now you are giving both to dex-builds.

With that said if you do this, I will certainly exploit it - but I would rather see assassin not become another easy button.

#way too far

As for the sneaking speed - the only reason I want it is to keep up with the party so I can remain in sneak before a battle. Unlike the dex suggestion, improving sneak speed is something that doesn't add power creep but makes assassins easier to play in a party. If there is a way to exploit it - someone should mention it because I can live with slower speed in that case. I am just not seeing why it would be bad.

Editing to correct - meant "sneaking speed" rather than sneak attack speed.

[davmuzl]

As for the sneak attack speed

I actually really like the idea of sneak attack speed- Make the buff you get while sneaking not give melee power but attack speed instead.

[cupajoe]

~ How do people feel about making Shadow Dagger and Assassinate use the best of Intelligence or Dexterity in the DC formula for Dexterity based Assassins? Would this make working synergies too easy?



Sev~

Yes please. I would love to be able to run a dex based assassin with a very high assassinate DC.

[IronClan]

There would be no reason to ever go with an int build if you did this. It's much easier to get a high dex vs. a high int. High Int requires more investment, AP, etc. you are creating massive ranged and multi-class synergies by doing that.

To me you are just adding an easy button and power creep by doing that. Not to mention, Shadowdancer has a dex-based ability that isn't as good as assassinate, but still if it was too good to give to int-builds now you are giving both to dex-builds.

With that said if you do this, I will certainly exploit it - but I would rather see assassin not become another easy button.

I don't see the easy button, with Harper and KtA Int is significantly stronger DPS than Dex currently. With an All out INT build being able to reach the equivelent of 88-90+ STR in terms of damage mod I don't see a Dex build as a threat. Especially now that Shadow Dodge is going to work as described.

A ranged build whipping out daggers and sneaking in for an assassinate? Yeah that would be terribl.. terrib... terri... terrific. That would be terrific!

I don't see power creep here, can you explain it? Ignoring of course that a non INT rogue pays a price in terms of Rogue skills and trapping (but of course this doesn't matter because this is Forum DDO so we'll ignore it)

[ValariusK]

What approximate timeframe are we looking at for the implementation of the 1st rogue pass?
I ask because its probably next on my list of heroic TRs

[bbqzor]

How do people feel about making Shadow Dagger and Assassinate use the best of Intelligence or Dexterity in the DC formula for Dexterity based Assassins? Would this make working synergies too easy?

Honestly, this would be nice change simply for quality of life and to avoid forcing assassins to try and be "wizards with points in harper" from an itemization standpoint. However, I really dont think its going to do much for either ability in terms of actually getting their DC up the margin it needs to be "plausibly ee". I would much rather see several types of build be possible, and changing off int means less skill points and less search/disable, so its not without its own drawbacks. I dont think theres much of a problem in that regard. Dex can get a bit higher than int so Im sure itll help a little, but not enough to be problematic, mainly itll just permit variety and quality of life.

But I also think both those abilities need good DCs. Not good just in one "the best maximum" setup way, but good at several points along a characters progression, and right now they just arent. Shadow Dagger goes out pretty early, even with 70 int (or dex now) on a pure rogue the dc would be 58, thatll flake in some epic hards even. Assassinate can work up into some EEs of course, but changing to dex alone wont make that any more "plausible" to reach. I will reiterate again that pawning that issue off on items is going to be a poor solution. Bucklers and small shields were not given a sufficient item pass, and they were much bigger changes than assassinate dc in terms of how much player base they affected. And right now, there is no +dc for shadow dagger (nor should there be). Items arent going to fix this, and there is no history of backwards item passes ever being done well enough or complete enough for them to have been "good". A future +10 item is terrible for what it does by proxy to existing players, just as hoping for a past +1 item is unlikely and ultimately unhelpful since it doesnt affect the top which is there the majority of the issues are.

Put another way, its the only class that has to track down some dc boosting item for one of its T5 abilities. The ONLY one. No other class has some item they have to go get to boost an enhancement that doesnt already boost several other things (like +stunning etc). Adding some new item isnt going to suddenly make that any less of a burden or a suddenly better idea. The formulas just need to be nicer, or allow for a little more dc boost in the trees themselves. Like put +2 dc in the assassin capstone, so pure assassins have benefits there over multiclass to keep up with what you can do stat-wise by splitting out. And make shadow dagger add +1 dc per core or something (I mean, it needs more work than that, but theres a starter idea to link it to growing the assassin tree rather than a stat or level). Anyhow you get the idea, hopefully.

So int or dex is a good move, it will open up variety and free assassins from several anchors on them like the limited int itemization and "forced" points into harper. But it also wont address the problem with either shadow dagger or assassinate which is insufficient dc at the top difficulty/build regions, relative to both how the abilities play and how similar abilities work elsewhere.

[Hafeal]

If a raw style where we communicate a lot is preferred ...

It is, it has been, and thank you. We, as players are raw often enough to the devs, allowing for some of that back is good for the players to realize the devs KNOW what they are doing and have thought things through, while, at the same time being willing to consider alternatives. Given the diminished staffing compared to prior years, more reliance on player feedback makes sense. If people need to have a thicker skin and learn to better pause to consider tone and content with their posts - that is a benefit to "raw" style of communication.

It would be nice(since assassinate comes so late) for low level assassins to have some sort of 'from stealth' attack that would give them some sort of advantage in a fight.

As I was listening to DDO Cast debate on the New Player experience, I found myself thinking the same thinking as Torvaldsberg in relation to this thread.

Some comments:

~ The randomized traps in ToEE will probably make a trapper with a good Spot skill valuable. Especially on Epic Elite.

I know you commented earlier about making the game more challenging and the lean to not create a new difficulty setting. While I do not want a new difficulty setting, I do believe in making Elite, particularly and especially, EE, tougher. To me, randomized traps is great move. Let me add, I KNOW the devs have reluctance to 'require' certain class skills for questing. I get it. Randomized traps, however, is a move away from that direction. AND I APPROVE. If EE requires 6 well geared, multiple life, multiple destiny characters working together - with skills only special classes or builds have - then GREAT. Just keep it to EE and not EH or Heroic levels (e.g., reasonable DCs, trap work arounds).

~~ How do people feel about making Shadow Dagger and Assassinate use the best of Intelligence or Dexterity in the DC formula for Dexterity based Assassins? Would this make working synergies too easy?

My first and immediate thought was this:

There would be no reason to ever go with an int build if you did this. It's much easier to get a high dex vs. a high int. High Int requires more investment, AP, etc. you are creating massive ranged and multi-class synergies by doing that.

To me you are just adding an easy button and power creep by doing that. Not to mention, Shadowdancer has a dex-based ability that isn't as good as assassinate, but still if it was too good to give to int-builds now you are giving both to dex-builds.

With that said if you do this, I will certainly exploit it - but I would rather see assassin not become another easy button.

[dualscissors]

snip...

~ How do people feel about making Shadow Dagger and Assassinate use the best of Intelligence or Dexterity in the DC formula for Dexterity based Assassins? Would this make working synergies too easy?



Sev~

I'm not seeing where including a Dex-based assassin option would create an unbalanced advantage to Dex builds.

*Both Dex and Int to damage are easily obtained (normal trees for Dex, Harper for Int).

*Dex-based could forego having to take "Insightful Reflexes" for an extra feat to use...but would lose the ability to ~max out as many skills.

*Dex and Int are roughly the same in how high you can go (there aren't tons of sources for Dex or Int like there is for Str).

*Dex doesn't open up any additional Epic Destinies that would play nice. Maxing your Stat for an extra +3 DC still means going Shadowdancer (not FotW, LD or DC).

*Dex builds would gain a respectable DC on Executioner's Strike for a meh 35% chance on a second assassinate-like effect. However this is a tier 5 ability where ED points start to get sparse.

*Going all Dex and secondary Int means your "Know the Angles" will be less effective than Int builds.

*On the other hand, regarding the last point, you could have the option of saving a lot of APs by not buying as deeply into Harper.

*Lastly, Dex makes as much sense for flavor as Int. Dex: you are super precise at placing your blade. Int: you have acute senses and knowledge of anatomical weaknesses.

[redoubt]

Opening up DEX assassinate:

Skill points are not a downside. A rogue gets a base of 8 per level.

Search, spot, DD, OL, UMD is only 5 needed. Can add heal at 2 points per rank and jump. This is with a 10 INT.

Yes, you would have lower search and disable skill, but I used to build ranger/rogues all the time with exactly enough INT to get the 4 core skill and UMD to 23 ranks (It was around 14 INT) and with an INT item was enough to get all the traps.

The part I worry about is no longer needing the harper tree and using dex instead. It frees up a ton of Action Points.

Would you ever consider making Knife in the Darkness and Dagger in the Back use both DEX and INT? If that is too powerful, then I think DEX assassinate is as well. If not, then do both things:

Make the ENTIRE assassin tree both DEX and INT.

If they are trying to challenge heavy armor users with damage it would be far better to replace complete fort bypass with PRR/MRR debuff that reduces PRR/MRR. I don't think this would kill a tank if fortification is working and it would reduce the huge damage spikes on lower PRR characters.

Sev is talking about making EE Temple really hard which is great. But what does "really hard" mean? Hitting twice as hard as now?

Aside from the new champion buffs, a rogue with good fortification mitigates 50-75% of the damage from crits with fortification and maybe 35% or so from PRR. A higher PRR character mitigates 50-75% of the damage from crits with fortification and maybe 65% or so from PRR. This is why I think a PRR/MRR debuff makes more sense than a fortification bypass if the goal is to challenge all builds.

I read the devs say they don't think fort bypass is causing the damage spikes, but I am not understanding how they can say that unless fort bypass is working differently than I think. The last time I had a big damage spike and died it specifically said I was critically hit in the combat log and my fortification is over 150%. I didn't see the monster buff but if I am taking a crit I assume fort bypass has to be one of those.

A PRR debuff hurts low PRR characters more.