Rogue - Assassin Changes

[Fedora1]

The value of trapping has diminished considerably. Others have already covered why so no need to repeat it.

I think it was stated that trapping is still relevant in heroics. I agree with that. And 1 level of rogue is not enough for many heroic elites unless maybe the multiclass is a ranger. Rangers are rare these days due to a somewhat weak enhancement line (not the worst, but quite a ways down the list) and the inferior fighting style of TWF.

Effective UMD is now easy to reach on a non-UMD, non-cha based class, so it's value has also diminished.

What has changed in the game to make a non-UMD/non-CHA class easier to reach effective UMD now than a couple years ago? What number do you consider effective, and why?

Damage mitigation is really only needed for upper level EEs. Anything below that, either level or difficulty, and it's really not needed. But damage mitigation is definitely needed in endgame, or upper level EEs, or whatever you want to call it.

So (not being snarky, just asking) in your opinion a first life pure assassin should be able to compete in EE content? Many argue that EE is for multi-life, very well geared, skilled players only, and I agree that is how it should be as well. So if we take that as a base for competing in EE, your epic destinies and gear should play a large role in being competitive. Otherwise don't we risk making EE completions standard and diminish their value? I have no issue running my 1st/2nd life toons through epics and never touching an EE, sticking with EN or EH. By third life and with good gear I feel ready to join groups in EE sometimes, depending on the quest.

I guess what I am saying is that I don't think a class needs to have everything available in its heroic enhancement tree (L1-20) to be able to compete 100% lock stock and barrel in end game EE content. That's where Turbine might need to tweak some destinies.

Barbarians have never been the top dps. When level cap was 20, assassins were top dps among pure classes.

But don't you think they should be?

[Saekee]

What has changed in the game to make a non-UMD/non-CHA class easier to reach effective UMD now than a couple years ago? What number do you consider effective, and why?

I think I can try to answer this one Fedora. The big change is the free across-the-board skill points for each epic level. That ends up being 7 or 8 by level 28 (and will only get higher with the cap move to 30). At level 20 one can easily equip good luck +2; high charisma can be slotted or swapped easily to start a quest with a scrolled Greater Heroism (which then adds the other +4); etc.; epic gear like Big Top, even if just at start of quest and other charisma-based skill boosting items; etc. etc. I still think max-UMD characters are relevant, though, since there will always be that higher-tier scroll (like the artificer ones) as well as their use in heroics.
I still struggle to have non-max-UMD characters scroll stuff in early epics.

[CThruTheEgo]

I think it was stated that trapping is still relevant in heroics. I agree with that. And 1 level of rogue is not enough for many heroic elites unless maybe the multiclass is a ranger. Rangers are rare these days due to a somewhat weak enhancement line (not the worst, but quite a ways down the list) and the inferior fighting style of TWF.

Traps in heroic for under-geared, inexperienced players are more of a problem than they are in epics, but they still are not a significant enough problem to say that a rogue's ability to disable them makes up for the worst damage mitigation in the game while still having behind the curve dps. Even in heroics most pugs I'm in just blaze right through them. Sometimes someone dies.

And yes, 1 level of rogue or arti is all you need for traps throughout the whole game. People have been doing it for years. Trapping is all about gear and knowing how to maximize your skills, not rogue/arti levels.

What has changed in the game to make a non-UMD/non-CHA class easier to reach effective UMD now than a couple years ago? What number do you consider effective, and why?

Saekee pretty much summed it up. A free 8 points of UMD handed out to everyone is huge. Gearing for cha/UMD is also easier, as Saekee pointed out. The value of those higher UMD scrolls, like artificer scrolls, is not enough to call this a significant non-combat advantage. I'll say this again, it's certainly not significant enough to say that it makes up for the worst damage mitigation in the game while still having behind the curve dps.

So (not being snarky, just asking) in your opinion a first life pure assassin should be able to compete in EE content? Many argue that EE is for multi-life, very well geared, skilled players only, and I agree that is how it should be as well. So if we take that as a base for competing in EE, your epic destinies and gear should play a large role in being competitive. Otherwise don't we risk making EE completions standard and diminish their value? I have no issue running my 1st/2nd life toons through epics and never touching an EE, sticking with EN or EH. By third life and with good gear I feel ready to join groups in EE sometimes, depending on the quest.

I'm not entirely sure what you're asking here. I do not think past lives should be required for anything. A well made build, which includes gear, and a skilled player should be required however. Of course, simply having extra build points from past lives will make it much easier to have a solid build, but I still wouldn't consider that a requirement. If a first life assassin with a solid build wants to put the time in to work their way up to acquiring an ideal gear set, I see no reason why they shouldn't be able to do EEs. I think that should be true for any class/build. No one should be able to just walk into any EE and pwn it without putting any effort into their character first. But if you put some effort in, whether that is through refining your build, acquiring gear, past lives, or some combination of those three, you should be able to contribute effectively imo.

I guess what I am saying is that I don't think a class needs to have everything available in its heroic enhancement tree (L1-20) to be able to compete 100% lock stock and barrel in end game EE content. That's where Turbine might need to tweak some destinies.

As far as this, I might tend to agree with you, but we have already been told that there will be no tweaks outside of the enhancement trees. And I personally don't want to wait an indefinite amount of time for them to get around to fixing EDs just so that one of the glaring problems with assassins gets fixed. Damage mitigation is a problem for assassins in high end content. They are updating the assassin tree. It should have some damage mitigation to fix that glaring problem. We've all been around long enough to know that there may never be an ED revamp. So now is the time to ask for what is needed.

The fact that the proposed PRR is in a tier 5 might mean it is more accessible to a splash, but very, very few builds are going to be taking assassin's tier 5s, so I don't think this is a problem and it is therefore in an appropriate place. It should not be in one of the cores because I think it should have the 3 ranks. And let's face it, no one is suggesting that assassins get tank levels of PRR. 5/10/15 in a tier 5 is not asking for much, but it is just enough to give assassins the boost they need. They will still be squishier than other classes, but won't have as much of a problem as they currently do. And I don't think 15 PRR available at level 12 will be game-breaking for heroics. I probably wouldn't even waste the AP on it until I had all my AP to spend (i.e. in epics).

The last thing I'll say is this - they gave barbarians self healing!!! Talk about anti-thematic to the class. So why deny rogues a tiny bit of damage mitigation?

But don't you think they should be?

No.

[redoubt]

You know that True Seeing gives absolutely no help to detect a stealthed character, right? You are thinking about invisibility, that is not the same as stealth.

You are correct, but I do mean True Seeing.

As rogues we rely heavily on concealment as part of our defense. My suggestion was to make it so we didn't lose that half of our defense to every mob with TS. (And its usually champions that have fort bypass and extra damage.)

On the sneaky side, that was the suggestion to add a % of bypassing tremor sense and ooze invisible seeing (or whatever that one is called) to the cores.

[Fedora1]

I think I can try to answer this one Fedora. The big change is the free across-the-board skill points for each epic level. That ends up being 7 or 8 by level 28 (and will only get higher with the cap move to 30). At level 20 one can easily equip good luck +2; high charisma can be slotted or swapped easily to start a quest with a scrolled Greater Heroism (which then adds the other +4); etc.; epic gear like Big Top, even if just at start of quest and other charisma-based skill boosting items; etc. etc. I still think max-UMD characters are relevant, though, since there will always be that higher-tier scroll (like the artificer ones) as well as their use in heroics.
I still struggle to have non-max-UMD characters scroll stuff in early epics.

Saekee pretty much summed it up. A free 8 points of UMD handed out to everyone is huge. Gearing for cha/UMD is also easier, as Saekee pointed out. The value of those higher UMD scrolls, like artificer scrolls, is not enough to call this a significant non-combat advantage. I'll say this again, it's certainly not significant enough to say that it makes up for the worst damage mitigation in the game while still having behind the curve dps.

I thought the quint-essential heroic level UMD scrolling was heal, which has a UMD40. I think waiting until L28 to get useful UMD for a non-UMD/non-CHA class does not negate a good UMD skill that rogues have available all along (or much sooner). In epics I agree UMD is easier to come by, but at the same time is not as needed due to destinies that make the UMD skill less needed (Cocoon et al).

Still I accept both your points on UMD, but we do seem to be jumping between what is useful on the way up vs what is needed in EE content (i.e. end game). It seems like on the one hand we are talking about end-game only and how these enhancements aren't good enough, vs the fact that at end game most of your power comes from destinies, not enhancements. It is indeed a balancing act for the devs (and players).

Traps in heroic for under-geared, inexperienced players are more of a problem than they are in epics, but they still are not a significant enough problem to say that a rogue's ability to disable them makes up for the worst damage mitigation in the game while still having behind the curve dps. Even in heroics most pugs I'm in just blaze right through them. Sometimes someone dies.

I have seen a lot of deaths in heroic elites due to traps (less since the MRR pass). So for zergers no problem maybe, but for maxing xp in a quest (whihc many people still do) you lose out on trap xp bonus and maybe on the zero death bonus. That alone does not make up for sub par dps or damage mitigation, I agree. But I think to say it is irrelevant is incorrect.

And yes, 1 level of rogue or arti is all you need for traps throughout the whole game. People have been doing it for years. Trapping is all about gear and knowing how to maximize your skills, not rogue/arti levels.

I have seen good gear and 2 rogue levels, combined with a high skill point class, do all traps, but I can't say I have seen it on a single rogue level at all levels of the game. Normally when I see a single rogue level they get locks not traps, but I will take your word for it though.

I'm not entirely sure what you're asking here. I do not think past lives should be required for anything. A well made build, which includes gear, and a skilled player should be required however. Of course, simply having extra build points from past lives will make it much easier to have a solid build, but I still wouldn't consider that a requirement. If a first life assassin with a solid build wants to put the time in to work their way up to acquiring an ideal gear set, I see no reason why they shouldn't be able to do EEs. I think that should be true for any class/build. No one should be able to just walk into any EE and pwn it without putting any effort into their character first. But if you put some effort in, whether that is through refining your build, acquiring gear, past lives, or some combination of those three, you should be able to contribute effectively imo.

Well from all the forum rants I have read on "the game is too easy" or "hate champions" or "I want my favorite class to be more powerful" threads I think you are in the minority (not in a bad way) because up until your reply all I saw was that EE should be reserved for the elite of the elite, the uberest players, etc., which means several past lives and best gear according to others. I am somewhere in the middle of your reply above and the so-called uber-elitest crowd.

As far as this, I might tend to agree with you, but we have already been told that there will be no tweaks outside of the enhancement trees. And I personally don't want to wait an indefinite amount of time for them to get around to fixing EDs just so that one of the glaring problems with assassins gets fixed. Damage mitigation is a problem for assassins in high end content. They are updating the assassin tree. It should have some damage mitigation to fix that glaring problem. We've all been around long enough to know that there may never be an ED revamp. So now is the time to ask for what is needed.

The fact that the proposed PRR is in a tier 5 might mean it is more accessible to a splash, but very, very few builds are going to be taking assassin's tier 5s, so I don't think this is a problem and it is therefore in an appropriate place. It should not be in one of the cores because I think it should have the 3 ranks. And let's face it, no one is suggesting that assassins get tank levels of PRR. 5/10/15 in a tier 5 is not asking for much, but it is just enough to give assassins the boost they need. They will still be squishier than other classes, but won't have as much of a problem as they currently do. And I don't think 15 PRR available at level 12 will be game-breaking for heroics. I probably wouldn't even waste the AP on it until I had all my AP to spend (i.e. in epics).

I can see your point.

The last thing I'll say is this - they gave barbarians self healing!!! Talk about anti-thematic to the class. So why deny rogues a tiny bit of damage mitigation?

We need to be careful with this kind of thinking. It's all fun and games until someone loses an eye... Or until every class has to one-up the last class that got a pass. Rangers got a pass way back, and now they are already behind again.

No.

Haha! Agree to disagree.

[Nuclear_Elvis]

Although slightly off-topic, having seen the UMD discussion here -- a consideration at the macro level when it comes to Skills is the way that Harper's Tree has changed the game for melees and their Skill progression. A player can choose to max INT which also results in high point values for each level toward your Skills, which results in some classes spending lots of points in otherwise unobtainable amounts. This could apply to UMD or any other *asterisk labeled, non-core skill (that only raises .5 at a time).

[redoubt]

I have seen a lot of deaths in heroic elites due to traps (less since the MRR pass). So for zergers no problem maybe, but for maxing xp in a quest (whihc many people still do) you lose out on trap xp bonus and maybe on the zero death bonus. That alone does not make up for sub par dps or damage mitigation, I agree. But I think to say it is irrelevant is incorrect.

What if traps bypassed MRR?

PRR would still help with physical traps like blades and spikes, but MRR no longer protected against things like fire? Maybe phrase it the opposite of the great poison nerf. MRR protects against magical things, its not magical fire so MRR doesn't apply???

I have seen good gear and 2 rogue levels, combined with a high skill point class, do all traps, but I can't say I have seen it on a single rogue level at all levels of the game. Normally when I see a single rogue level they get locks not traps, but I will take your word for it though.

1 rogue/1 monk/18 ranger. I was able to do every trap. I don't run the build any more though, but not because of a lack of trap skills.

[brzytki]

By the way, i noticed today that it's been 20 pages of this thread and no one asked the Devs yet to finally fix assassinate to go through Deathward/Deathblock. I mean, we've been talking about it on and off for 6 years and still assassinate is considered a "magical death effect"...

[CThruTheEgo]

I thought the quint-essential heroic level UMD scrolling was heal, which has a UMD40. I think waiting until L28 to get useful UMD for a non-UMD/non-CHA class does not negate a good UMD skill that rogues have available all along (or much sooner).

Any class with a blue bar has built in self healing already (and if you build a blue bar class without taking advantage of its inherent self healing options, that's on you and is no fault of any class, a fleshy sorc may be the only exception to this but they won't have a problem scroll healing so it's a non-issue), so really only fighters, barbs, monks, and rogues need to even consider scroll healing. Barbs now have self healing options, so they don't need it. Monks also have some self healing that is sufficient for heroics. Fighters wear heavy armor which has significantly improved their defenses and diminished the need for a solid source of healing. They still need self healing of some sort, but not as much as they once did thanks to the armor up changes. Depending on the gear one has, a rogue will reach heal scroll levels of UMD in the early to late teens. Because rogues did not get a defense boost with the armor up changes, they do need a better source of healing in heroics than others. So I really wouldn't consider UMD healing in heroics an advantage for rogues so much as well balanced (it was, however, an advantage before the armor up changes and before barbs got self healing). Epics, however, is where that balance tends to fall apart, just like every other mechanic.

In epics I agree UMD is easier to come by, but at the same time is not as needed due to destinies that make the UMD skill less needed (Cocoon et al).

This also diminishes the value of UMD for rogues though, because they can get better healing elsewhere. I think it could be argued that because of the inflated damage from mobs and the time it takes to "cast," as well as the possibility of being interrupted, scroll healing in epics is the worst form of self healing currently. I twist cocoon on my assassin and rarely have to use scrolls, just like every other melee without built in self healing. So the value of a rogue's self healing option goes down in epics while their damage mitigation stays the same, and every other class except for monks recently got a boost to damage mitigation. Do you see now why I'm pushing for just a little PRR in the assassin pass?

UMD is certainly still worth taking on any class/build, but it's definitely not worth what it used to be. In fact, I'd argue it's now worth more for self buffs and raising than for self healing.

Still I accept both your points on UMD, but we do seem to be jumping between what is useful on the way up vs what is needed in EE content (i.e. end game). It seems like on the one hand we are talking about end-game only and how these enhancements aren't good enough, vs the fact that at end game most of your power comes from destinies, not enhancements. It is indeed a balancing act for the devs (and players).

Balancing for content from level 1-28 is a problem, I'm certainly not going to argue against that. A wide variety of complete trash builds will succeed quite nicely in heroics, but epics require more refinement and synergy. I think it's good that way tbh, because people who want to experiment with odd builds can do so. But this is exactly the reason why revamps need to be balanced around harder difficulty. If basically anything already works in the easier content, what is the point of doing a revamp if a class/build is not going to be viable/fun in harder content? The whole point of a revamp is to bring them up to speed with the current state of the game, isn't it?

Ideally these revamps should be done all at once. With the assassin revamp should also come a TWF and shadowdancer revamp, but that's not going to happen, as we've already been told. So if these changes are not going to be made elsewhere, then the enhancement revamps have to be balanced for EE, otherwise there's no point in doing them. But as I said before, no one is seriously proposing anything that will be game-breaking for heroics, 15 PRR at level 12 certainly won't be.

I have seen a lot of deaths in heroic elites due to traps (less since the MRR pass). So for zergers no problem maybe, but for maxing xp in a quest (whihc many people still do) you lose out on trap xp bonus and maybe on the zero death bonus. That alone does not make up for sub par dps or damage mitigation, I agree. But I think to say it is irrelevant is incorrect.

I never said it was irrelevant, and I don't think it is. The value of it has certainly diminished but it is not completely irrelevant. But it is definitely not enough of an advantage to justify significantly lower damage mitigation than every other melee and behind the curve dps than every other revamped class. The same goes for UMD. And since you mentioned it, all the extra xp available now (bravery bonus, streak, first time difficulty completion, daily bonus, pots are more common, etc.), as well as the xp curve rebalancing they did, has diminished the value of trap xp also.

We need to be careful with this kind of thinking. It's all fun and games until someone loses an eye... Or until every class has to one-up the last class that got a pass. Rangers got a pass way back, and now they are already behind again.

Agreed, which is why all I'm asking for is a little help to plug up the holes in the build without turning it into the next uberclass. Sev already added the 10 melee power to the capstone, which is good. Now we just need measure the foe to expire 1 stack every 6 seconds and boost the PRR from light armor mastery up to 5/10/15 and those holes should be filled in nicely.

Earlier in the thread someone suggested allowing assassins to pop out, like bugbears do, to heal up. I kind of liked that idea, but I do think it would be too much and I don't want to see the class become an easy button, so I didn't advocate for it. Rogues definitely could use a boost to self healing, but their self healing is "good enough" already. An assassin can get by with cocoon and heal scrolls. But their PRR is not "good enough" and needs more than the 6 from light armor mastery currently proposed. Too much wouldn't be a good thing either though, they just need a little boost is all.

[Bobby88888]

By the way, i noticed today that it's been 20 pages of this thread and no one asked the Devs yet to finally fix assassinate to go through Deathward/Deathblock. I mean, we've been talking about it on and off for 6 years and still assassinate is considered a "magical death effect"...

I was so sure I had mentioned this but it seems I forgot

But I totally agree. They can stop a magical compulsion to die but a dagger across the throat should be another matter entirely.

[HatsuharuZ]

By the way, i noticed today that it's been 20 pages of this thread and no one asked the Devs yet to finally fix assassinate to go through Deathward/Deathblock. I mean, we've been talking about it on and off for 6 years and still assassinate is considered a "magical death effect"...

So.... Freedom of Movement was once changed (nerfed) to only stop magical effects, perhaps the same argument could be applied here?

Now that I think about it, banishing effects and turn undead are considered death effects by Deathward effects as well.

[Ayseifn]

So.... Freedom of Movement was once changed (nerfed) to only stop magical effects, perhaps the same argument could be applied here?

Now that I think about it, banishing effects and turn undead are considered death effects by Deathward effects as well.

I'd be cool with assassinate working on deathwarded mobs, just put a 10 second or so immunity to it like neutralize poison does when cast. So get in before DW is cast or wait 10 secs or so to get the kill.

[Monkey-Boy]

Assassinate working on Orange mobs might actually make it worth something.

[CThruTheEgo]

Assassinate working on Orange mobs might actually make it worth something.

/signed. It used to work on them, not sure why it was changed.

[amsharkwei]

why not give assassin spell cast ability or some spell-like ability in assassin tree

LV1??disguise self???detect poison???feather fall???ghost sound???jump???obscuring mist???sleep??? true strike??

LV2??alter self???cat’s grace???darkness???fox’s cunning???illusory script???invisibility??? pass without trace???spider climb???undetectable alignment??

LV3??deep slumber???deeper darkness???false life???magic circle against good???misdirection???nondetection??

LV4??clairaudience/clairvoyance???dimension door???freedom of movement???glibness???greater invisibility???locate creature???modify memory???poison??

Assassin gain additional spell points by having high intelligence

[Torvaldsberg]

Another thought that applies more to early play than the end-game that most of this discussion revolves around...

It would be nice(since assassinate comes so late) for low level assassins to have some sort of 'from stealth' attack that would give them some sort of advantage in a fight. Whether it did significant damage, made the target vulnerable to sneak attack, caused some sort of debuff, etc. Anything to give a low level assassin a reason to sneak up to a mob and attack. It would be a nice way to get new-to-assassin players in the mind set and add something to the early levels. As is is now, an assassin doesn't really 'feel' like an assassin until level 12, which is fairly discouraging for a newer player.

It wouldn't need to be an instant death or anything unbalancing. Just something to keep the interest up. Maybe something like 'any opening attack from stealth has the chance(equal to intelligence or intelligence modifier) to do double the sneak attack damage or render the target susceptible to sneak attacks for 'X' seconds'. Something to give back the feeling we all had the first time we saw a kobold's death spin from the first arrow. At the lower levels, the percent of success granted by intelligence would be low, so it wouldn't be crazily over-powered. It could be limited to creatures with less than a specific number of hit die if there were concerns about it affecting later game play.

Just a though for giving the lower levels some excitement.

[Blackheartox]

Assassinate working on Orange mobs might actually make it worth something.

That would be cool, but ONLY if casters dont get necro to work as well.
Im considering my messing around with exalted necro sorc to be a real blast in fun when it comes to trash clear (and still way ahead of pm when it comes to boss dps)

[Monkey-Boy]

That would be cool, but ONLY if casters dont get necro to work as well.

Agreed.

Im considering my messing around with exalted necro sorc to be a real blast in fun when it comes to trash clear (and still way ahead of pm when it comes to boss dps)

Post details of your experience once you're broken it in.

[Severlin]

Some comments:

~ The randomized traps in ToEE will probably make a trapper with a good Spot skill valuable. Especially on Epic Elite.

~ We are considering making Weakening Strikes reduce Melee Power of enemies with an Assassin's Mark by 10 + 1/2 Rogue level. That means a level 20 Rogue will be getting an extra 20% mitigation.

Yeah, I know I said we were going to hold off on further changes until Lamannia but we've been talking about the discussions on Rogue mitigation.

Sev~

[CThruTheEgo]

~ The randomized traps in ToEE will probably make a trapper with a good Spot skill valuable. Especially on Epic Elite.

I'm glad to hear this. We have needed random traps for a long time now. As long as this is implemented well (i.e. enough randomness so they are not predictable after a few runs), this will really add to the fun factor of traps.

~ We are considering making Weakening Strikes reduce Melee Power of enemies with an Assassin's Mark by 10 + 1/2 Rogue level. That means a level 20 Rogue will be getting an extra 20% mitigation.

This is fantastic. I love this idea. This kind of mitigation better thematically than PRR. Thanks for listening and keeping us informed.

Yeah, I know I said we were going to hold off on further changes until Lamannia but we've been talking about the discussions on Rogue mitigation.

I must have missed where the assassin changes were done until Lam. Are you all considering changing measure the foe to fade 1 stack every 6 seconds instead of all at once after 10 seconds? Inquiring minds want to know.