Rogue - Assassin Changes

[Saekee]

There is a bug in tremor sense.
If a rogue is in sneak & the other members aren't in sneak and walking in front of that rogue, spiders will ALWAYS be aggroed on that rogue, not on the other members of group.

Why spiders always be aggroed by the sneak guy even there are many other party members who aren't in sneak & are moving(making big noise & tremor) and nearer than the sneak guy.
It's really strange, because it seems non-sneaky running makes lessor tremor than sneaky walk.

I can understand this situation if the sneaky guy was at the front.
But, there were many party members at the front and they made lots of noise & tremor.
How can spiders just always ignore that huge near tremor, but how can spiders always sense very little tremor on far sneaky one?

You are confusing attack vs. attraction. It is attempting to mate, thinking that someone creeping along is cute spider.

Ok bad joke. That is an interesting point you make draven; sounds like some unusual coding. At some point there may be another thread on stealth again; please mention it again there.

[CThruTheEgo]

If players are uncomfortable seeing enhancement passes during the raw inception phase and would rather us present to them a more polished version much later in the design cycle then we can also do that.

Sev~

It is greatly appreciated that we are made part of the design process.

[slarden]

I really like the changes. It gives my rogue a very small boost while not providing too much power.

I am currently spending 42 action points in the Assassin tree. My AP costs are being reduced by 6 (Shiv + Critical Mastery) which allows me to take the new improved Stealthy from tier 1 and Damage boost from tier 2.

From the core I gain:
+2 Dexterity (useful only for skills)
+10 Melee Power
+4 Reflex Saves
Improvement to Nimbleness and Assassin's Trick

From tier 1 I gain
+3 hide and move silently
20% movement speed (from changes to both trees combined) from Thief/Acrobat Tree

From tier 2 I gain
Venomed Blade melee power scaling
30 Melee power damage boost

From tier 5 I gain
The boost to melee power and dodge from measure the foe is very helpful

Overall I am happy with these changes.

Does the passive threat reduction ability from shiv stack with the passive threat reduction ability from Sly Flourish?

[ghtzxc]

Does anyone else think that perhaps that Assassin's Trick could use a little more work? With a 6 second CD, it's rather difficult to utilize sneak attack and double-assassinate on, say, hordes of undead. And perhaps the rogue would only be able to get a couple hits on the debuffed enemy in this case before it is killed, giving Assassin's Trick very little up-time when facing multiple enemies.

I do see it's powerful use however on high hp targets with sneak attack immunity/fortification.

What do you guys think? Is this a concern that other players or developers share?

Thanks!

[slarden]

If players are uncomfortable seeing enhancement passes during the raw inception phase and would rather us present to them a more polished version much later in the design cycle then we can also do that.

Sev~

I would think your approach is saving alot of re-work by getting feedback before the development is done. I hope it continues.

[nibel]

Good stuff. Thanks for listening Sev. Now can we get rid of the +2 dex and change it to +4 int. No pure assassin goes dex based. The only reason to stay pure is to use assassinate, which is an int based ability, so dex is useless for a pure assassin.

I would actually prefer if Assassinate was either Dex or Int, whatever you have higher (or a multiselector, if that is not possible). That would give an extra incentive for rogues to go dex-based.

[ToastyFred]

Good stuff. Thanks for listening Sev. Now can we get rid of the +2 dex and change it to +4 int. No pure assassin goes dex based. The only reason to stay pure is to use assassinate, which is an int based ability, so dex is useless for a pure assassin.



How about increasing the PRR to 5/10/15 to improve damage mitigation by a small amount? This is still one of the central problems that needs fixing.

Assassins get +2 to Int (not Dex) and +4 Sneak attack Dice for their Deadly Shadow capstone. It SHOULD be +4 Int + the Sneak Dice though. The Barbs and Pallies +4 to their capstone stats I believe and so should the Rogues.

I agree with the additional +PRR suggestion.

[brzytki]

If players are uncomfortable seeing enhancement passes during the raw inception phase and would rather us present to them a more polished version much later in the design cycle then we can also do that.

Sev~

Ok, i get it. Don't do that.

[CThruTheEgo]

I also want to suggest (again) making measure the foe stacks fade 1 at a time every 6 seconds. As it currently is (all stacks dropping after 10 seconds), the only thing preventing me from simply dropping into sneak every 8 seconds to keep this at full stacks is the tedious nature of doing so. I assume this would be possible, but micromanaging extremely short duration buffs certainly is not fun.

Having them fade 1 stack every 6 seconds means I'll still drop into sneak mode every so often to keep stacks up, but won't feel the need to micromanage in order to avoid losing all benefit completely. This option provides a more continuous benefit without requiring any micromanagement, which means a more fun playing experience imo.

Anyone else, pros/cons, for/against this?

[depositbox]

Rogues have UMD and don't have Rage preventing them from casting if they need a healing source.

Sev~

good luck trying to scroll yourself with casters and archers breaking your concentration check. it isnt as easy as it sounds. it requires kiting around in circles like you're in a nascar race, running for cover, and jumping in bizzare patterns. doable? sure. quickened heal/ccw/loh/recon it is not. not that every class should lay on hands and cast ccw or heal spell. ever consider why cocoon, devotion item/lore, empower heal feat, and hamp are must have for fleshies?


And please at the very least, rogues should have more loot luck than other classes to make up for not being able to steal(it's what they do). small meaningless thing that adds flavor.

[CThruTheEgo]

I would actually prefer if Assassinate was either Dex or Int, whatever you have higher (or a multiselector, if that is not possible). That would give an extra incentive for rogues to go dex-based.

I'd be fine with this also. But if it's going to remain int based, then there's no need for the dex in the capstone.

[bbqzor]

From tier 1 I gain
+3 hide and move silently -- Its not clear if this was replaced by sneak speed, or if sneak speed was in addition to the skills

From tier 2 I gain
Venomed Blade melee power scaling -- This is already on live, but the cost is reduced saving you 3 more AP
30 Melee power damage boost -- This is a nerf relative to damage boost (regular damage boost multiplies your melee power) but its to bring it in line with everything else so nbd

Comments above. Youd be wise to spend those 3 new AP on the Assassin's Mark line, or find room for them otherwise. What amounts to basically -10% to mob damage is pretty good.

Honestly I expect itll play out as the base dps to come up a bit, the burst dps to stay about the same, a more consistent access to dodge for hitting dodge cap by level cap, and some slight mitigation gains in effective prr. Assuming you have points for cross tree use, move speed will help sneaking be less of a drawback, which is good. Itll make rogues a little more dps when theyre not running boosts which helps with consistency and help make spike-outs less common as long as the rogue strikes first, so those are both good things.

Dumping the assassinate DC problem off on items is likely a mistake, but will see how it plays out. Bucklers and Light Shields got dumped the same way and theyre left crippled itemization wise. And without retroactive changes to scale existing items, it will be very difficult for the DC to really change much... they could add a +1 item from 1-15, or a +5-6 item from 29-30, but thats not going to really do much. Adding a +6 item or something in the 20-28 range without changing the time consuming to get DW Neck, or the practically impossible (as in, theres no practical way to approach it) to obtain Mythic Veneer would essentially be punitive by proxy to existing player efforts, and actual item revamps have been extremely rare, but what else can you do. Itll probably just remain the same status quo as it is now, with it being "difficult" to use in EE lets say.

I hope they examine the agro/functionality of assassinate. Wont be able to see until Lama. Right now it is *extremely* fickle on hitting more than one target, though the agro issues seem a bit reduced than they were previously. Somewhere recently some changes happened, but its still not "working right" like it did before the big stealth overhaul. I dunno what of that was intentional and not in patch notes, or just side effects of other changes (see str based fireball). But anything less than remaining stealthed, while hitting 2-3 mobs with assassinate, is a loss compared to the functionality it had previously. So hopefully that can get checked out. Im going to just keep assuming it wasnt an intentional change until I see in patch notes "yes, we made assassinate worse on purpose" so thats where Im coming from.

If they get assassinate working right again, and the items actually get revamped or something to address the DC practicality, things will be pretty good. But without that ability kind of firing on all cylinders, itll be tough for this tree to compete with other T5 choices. Just some thoughts, cheers.

[CThruTheEgo]

30 Melee power damage boost -- This is a nerf relative to damage boost (regular damage boost multiplies your melee power) but its to bring it in line with everything else so nbd

One benefit of this change is you can now use it with human damage boost, so this will save some AP by negating the need for a human assassin to go for haste boost from acrobat. Although damage boost + melee power boost is still less than damage boost + haste boost, but the saved AP should be a good tradeoff.

[redoubt]

If players are uncomfortable seeing enhancement passes during the raw inception phase and would rather us present to them a more polished version much later in the design cycle then we can also do that.

Sev~

Thank you for continuing to stay active and to let us see the early ideas and for actually incorporating some of our ideas.

For those complaining...
1. Sev is letting us see early stuff (didn't use to happen)
2. Sev is listening (hasn't happened in a long time)
3. Sev is incorporating some of our ideas. (Stuff we were shown used to be more of a preview than a discussion.)

If stuff looks raw, deal with it. He is letting us in on it early. Quit being insulting or we will lose this opportunity.

Thank you.

[brzytki]

I also want to suggest (again) making measure the foe stacks fade 1 at a time every 6 seconds. As it currently is (all stacks dropping after 10 seconds), the only thing preventing me from simply dropping into sneak every 8 seconds to keep this at full stacks is the tedious nature of doing so. I assume this would be possible, but micromanaging extremely short duration buffs certainly is not fun.

Having them fade 1 stack every 6 seconds means I'll still drop into sneak mode every so often to keep stacks up, but won't feel the need to micromanage in order to avoid losing all benefit completely. This option provides a more continuous benefit without requiring any micromanagement, which means a more fun playing experience imo.

Anyone else, pros/cons, for/against this?

I'm all for it. Assassins seem to be the only prestige with buffs that disappear all at once, not one stack at a time. Even if they are not the only ones (i haven't searched through wiki but i seriously doubt any has such abilities), they'll definitely be ones with 3 (!) of them - Nimbleness, Killer and Measure the Foe. Say "Hello" to your own microcosmos.

Shortening the time from 10 to 6 seconds seems reasonable since it'd be too powerful the other way.

[dualscissors]

This comes across as a threat, "agree with us or we won't give you a chance to comment". Can't be helpful. Your other post said that Acrobat was done except for spinning wall comments, so does that mean the assassin is at a earlier stage still?

It comes across as, "I'm not putting myself out here to be insulted for not putting out a perfect first draft, despite the fact I am going to great lengths to listen and make changes that you guys want."

I happen to think that's a pretty reasonable outlook. Disagreement is fine but frame it constructively.

[Nyata]

Good stuff. Thanks for listening Sev. Now can we get rid of the +2 dex and change it to +4 int. No pure assassin goes dex based. The only reason to stay pure is to use assassinate, which is an int based ability, so dex is useless for a pure assassin.
[...]

I disagree. assuming that any character can go fully INT based would be assuming that any haracter has access to the harper tree... which I think is not the case by a long shot. also it reminded me painfully of how long it took me to farm out the shard for the epic midnight greeting. pretty sure there is still a lot of finesse based assassins in the game. also asking to replace 2 dex with 4 INT is kind of brazen.

I agree, rogues need some big boni to be able to catch up with other classes again, but that's not it, that's a very individual and rather minor adjustment.

[Qezuzu]

I disagree. assuming that any character can go fully INT based would be assuming that any haracter has access to the harper tree... which I think is not the case by a long shot. also it reminded me painfully of how long it took me to farm out the shard for the epic midnight greeting. pretty sure there is still a lot of finesse based assassins in the game. also asking to replace 2 dex with 4 INT is kind of brazen.

I agree, rogues need some big boni to be able to catch up with other classes again, but that's not it, that's a very individual and rather minor adjustment.

Then have the capstone give +4 INT and +2 DEX.

[Nyata]

This comes across as a threat, "agree with us or we won't give you a chance to comment". Can't be helpful. Your other post said that Acrobat was done except for spinning wall comments, so does that mean the assassin is at a earlier stage still?

It's fairly obvious that a very rough, very vague, and very open for discussion first draft has been put out there, giving people a chance to put their opinion, concerns, and complaints in at an early stage. Sev is really active in this thread and taking the time to read and find the red thread in all of the quite diverse player opinions. he made a LOT of adjustments so far on the first draft, but of course he cannot go with everyone, and he has to keep some general direction (or directive?) in mind.

personally I think people are a lot more passionate about the assassin tree, because it is a UNIQUE playstyle. a playstyle that takes unique personalities to enjoy. so it makes it a lot harder to finish so much as a rough draft based on player input than acrobat.

[Phoenix-daBard]

People have a right to complain and to compliment, trying to muzzle them would only produce worthless input that wouldn't help designers.

Complaining is not the same thing as being insulting. It is perfectly fine to complain when something does not seem right. But if your post is just an insult it is best not to hit Submit Reply. That is what redoubt was addressing.