Rogue - Assassin Changes

[davmuzl]

Assassins should be fun for players who enjoy that type of play style.
The do good damage in a group because they can deliver lots of sneak attack damage when monsters are focused on others.
The are fun solo because they have good burst out of stealth and lots of tricks, but they are harder to play than, say, barbarian.

(Rogues also have a lot of non-combat advantages.)



We are more interested in "is this class fun for people who like that playstyle" than ranks. I suspect any discussion about ranks will involve a lot of "how do we define the ranks?" and "by what criteria are we ranking the class?" Some people will rank classes by speed in which they can complete content solo but that's not really a criteria we'd use. Some might use face to face survival times. How do we add the ability to disarm traps to rankings? That question will, I suspect, vary from player to player and be totally arbitrary. Discussions of ranking will like devolve quickly into areas that are not productive.

Sev~

I think the idea of a ranking would be good to define a role in a group and to make sure every class has their moment to shine.
Let's say we have a "tankyness" rating like this (and you obviously don't have to agree with my ranking at all - it is just how I see the classes we currently having matching up):

1. Fighters and Paladins are the classes you want to have when it comes to tanking an endgame raid boss on the highest difficulty.
2. Barbarians, Monks and Druids can also build tanky and will be able to survive pretty well but not enough to take on the strongestt endgame bosses.
3. Rangers,Clerics and Favored Souls are able to stand against most enemies without worrying too much about being killed imediatly but will have to split in other classes if they want to survive an extended fight or more than one enemy.
4. Rogues , Wizards and Sorcerers generally have to be very careful and want to make sure that they either stay away from the enemy or that the enemy isn't attacking them.
Not really sure where I would rank Bards and Artificers but I would put them in the lowest tier, just from my personal experience.

Of course this doesn't mean, if you are playing an arcane spellcaster as an example, that you end up with no options for defense at all but it means that they generally have to invest more to make it work. Also I am thinking here about what options the classes have available and just playing a Fighter or Paladin wouldn't mean you are automatically a good tank but it means they end up on top if they want to invest.

The same kind of ranking we can make for DPS(sustained and burst?), healing, CC and "utility" or "group related"(stuff like trap disabling, monk finishing moves, buffs,...) and I think it could be very productive, because then we can compare the ranking to how classes actually perform in the game and find out what classes are too weak and what classes are to strong in a category.

That being said I like your "vision" of the assassin but it would be great to have it as an intro to thread and I would actually love to know what your vision if for all the other classes and enhancent trees.

[CThruTheEgo]

So what made assassins fun before?

And if the only "fun" class now is the max dps, self heal, and zerg through content without slowing down, then why should you play an assassin rather than a pally, bard, or barb?

Everyone is asking for is the same thing for every class. So why have different classes if they all play the same way?

1. Fast movement.
2. Max dps.
3. Max damage avoidance or mitigation.
4. All classes do everything equally well (or rather my favorite class must not be behind any other class in any area).

So the style is enter quest, run max speed w/o slowing down as you kill all mobs, end quest, get xp. Check the stop watch to make sure it was faster than the other class (which I don't play). If it was slower, it is gimp and not worth playing this class anymore.

-draven this is not aimed at you, I just used your post since it was the latest in echoing what many have stated.

In a PvE game, such as DDO, it is less important that all classes be equally good at all things or even 100% perfectly balanced IMO.

The basic playstyle of an assassin has not changed, but the game certainly has, and an assassin has to adapt to those conditions. If a first life paladin with hand me down gear can zerg at full speed through EE Stormhorns with no regard to how much agro he is drawing, kill everything without even trying, and survive being surrounded by a dozen mobs, the assassin in that group is going to have to adapt or will get bored. So will every other class/build btw, but this thread is specifically about assassins. It's not about keeping up with the Joneses, it's about keeping the class fun to play while playing with the Joneses, because you're going to encounter them.

As I've said numerous times, I don't want rogues to become invincible from damage mitigation like a paladin is. And yes, assassins are not supposed to get agro, but it does happen, and when it does, mob damage is so inflated now that this is a problem that can't be ignored. Increasing the PRR from light armor mastery to 5/10/15 and incorporating more debuff options, like the melee power debuff from poisons, would not turn assassins into another easy button, but it would be just enough of a boost to their survivability to allow them to function better in the current endgame.

If the Devs actually supported Rogues with quest design that allow non-brute force in the game, such as sneaking, then maybe players would be playing that way more. You can't fault players complaining about such things when mobs are HP meatbags, spawn in clustered groups, all of them must be killed before advancing the quest while the endgame leans heavily Undead and Construct. Add in there that Champions have thrown a heavy wrench on top of everything.

Examples of poor quest design: The whole Druid's Deep chain consists of killing all mobs, instead of a few key mobs, to advance. Necro4 consists of almost exclusively anti-sneak attack mobs.

Quests either need to be designed smarter or more diverse. As I said before, this was a similar problem Paladins had before their pass. And here's a hint, if Undead and Epic Animals were to switch places, we'd be talking about almost exclusively the same mobs: Constructs, Elementals, Plants.

Well said. Don't build content that requires certain characteristics of any build and then completely ignore those characteristics when you're revamping a class.

[davmuzl]

Think why most advanced assassin players left their favorite class. Because it's not fun anymore even if you like that type of play style.
It seems DDO does not support that type of play anymore.
Good damage? When other melees can rofl-faceroll the hardest content solo, what's the point of good damage of assassin?

Assassin doesn't have good damage even in group now.
My assassin have almost every source of damage & sneak attack for 95% situation & assassinate 1 or 2 mob every 15 sec, but, he can't literally catch other melees now. I myself can kill faster & easier with other classes even I was an assassin for 6+ years.

Yup, rogues have lots of non-combat advantages. But, WHO CARES IT when everyone can self-heal, rez, bypass traps, better survivalability?



Was this assassin fun? YES. But, it's not now. You can see many good assassin players left their favorite class, including me.
Don't gimp assassins because they can disable traps.
Actually, traps just slow assassin who is the slowest in DDO. Almost no one cares about traps except xp bonus.

I am leveling a shadar kai assassin at the moment and it has been a lot of fun so far. He is only level 17 at the moment so I don't know how things will go in epic levels and it also means that the time I've been playing him so far is quite short but I can't complain about the DPS and I'm not slower than everyone else.

[CThruTheEgo]

I am leveling a shadar kai assassin at the moment and it has been a lot of fun so far. He is only level 17 at the moment so I don't know how things will go in epic levels and it also means that the time I've been playing him so far is quite short but I can't complain about the DPS and I'm not slower than everyone else.

It's epic elites, specifically upper level epic elites, where any notion of game balance tends to fall apart completely. That's just the result of the conditions of epic elite though.

[Fedora1]

An assassin will not be FOTM builds by any means, because their DPS is tied with sneak attack, not just raw auto-attack DPS & they are not good at facerolling contents with insanely high hp, saves, PRR/MRR, with insane DPS.

Assassin game play need tactical thinking, not fitting mindless zerg FOTM at all.

Agreed.

If the Devs actually supported Rogues with quest design that allow non-brute force in the game, such as sneaking, then maybe players would be playing that way more. You can't fault players complaining about such things when mobs are HP meatbags, spawn in clustered groups, all of them must be killed before advancing the quest while the endgame leans heavily Undead and Construct. Add in there that Champions have thrown a heavy wrench on top of everything.

///snip///

Quests either need to be designed smarter or more diverse.

Very good points.

Don't build content that requires certain characteristics of any build and then completely ignore those characteristics when you're revamping a class.

Agreed.

[Qezuzu]

Assassins should be fun for players who enjoy that type of play style.
The do good damage in a group because they can deliver lots of sneak attack damage when monsters are focused on others.
The are fun solo because they have good burst out of stealth and lots of tricks, but they are harder to play than, say, barbarian.

(Rogues also have a lot of non-combat advantages.)



We are more interested in "is this class fun for people who like that playstyle" than ranks. I suspect any discussion about ranks will involve a lot of "how do we define the ranks?" and "by what criteria are we ranking the class?" Some people will rank classes by speed in which they can complete content solo but that's not really a criteria we'd use. Some might use face to face survival times. How do we add the ability to disarm traps to rankings? That question will, I suspect, vary from player to player and be totally arbitrary. Discussions of ranking will like devolve quickly into areas that are not productive.

Sev~

No one cares about traps beyond the XP bonus, and it's something that can be achieved with only one level of Rogue. Until you make traps that can actually kill players, let alone if you somehow make it required to have a heavy investment of Rogue/Artificer levels to disarm them, this is not much of a factor. Even then people will just die and rez past them.

So what made assassins fun before?

And if the only "fun" class now is the max dps, self heal, and zerg through content without slowing down, then why should you play an assassin rather than a pally, bard, or barb?

Everyone is asking for is the same thing for every class. So why have different classes if they all play the same way?

1. Fast movement.
2. Max dps.
3. Max damage avoidance or mitigation.
4. All classes do everything equally well (or rather my favorite class must not be behind any other class in any area).

Dealing damage, avoiding damage and healing from damage are basics of the game. Rogues are average in damage and sub-par in the damage avoiding/healing, which is a problem, but no one wants them to be on-par in every area. It makes sense that they can't take a hit well, but to compensate they should have the best damage or close to it. In other games there's an actual distinction between Tank and DPS classes, this isn't the case in DDO which is a problem because why play the class that does damage and can't take a hit when you could play a class that can do both?

This. Exactly this. I am so glad Sev isn't listening to the people who play like that. Because those are the people who are bored out of their minds... And it's their own fault.

Instead of trying to play differently as a rogue, they want the devs to change rogues so they can play the exact same way they play a barbarian... Don't do it devs!

lol

If you're grouping with a barbarian or Paladin or basically any good "thug" build there's not much room for playing like an Assassin. If you pause to disable a trap you end up a quarter mile behind. Stealth is useless when every mob is gonna get killed anyway.

Here's how I play an Assassin in a group: I zerg as hard as I can to keep up with the rest of the group. The time I spend in sneak is just enough to use Assassinate and approach groups of enemies if I come to them earlier than the rest of the group. With the current pass this will also include maintaining Measure the Foe.

At least this is my experience. As far as I'm concerned, currently, there's no fundamental differences between how a Rogue in a party plays and any other melee, except the Rogue does less damage and needs to leave combat more often to heal. The only real differences are Assassinate and, uh, that's it, and there's a lot of content where Assassinate doesn't work. That and aggro management, but that sort of comes naturally when you're the only one without cleaves also there's improved deception and threat reduction, aggro management is hardly an afterthought.

Now in solo and organized shortman you can do a lot of cool things, people may know I'm a fan of minimum kill runs, and an increase to how much damage Rogues can do doesn't threaten that. What does threaten that is poorly designed quests where every other mob is a required kill. That and spiders.

I want to second CThruTheEgo that I don't want Rogue to become an overpowered win button. Not just because it would be boring, but because it would be unhealthy for the game in the long run. But the devs shouldn't be restricting themselves so much that 6 PRR is considered adequate for a T5 ability, or that taking unmanageable spike damage is just an "intended weakness" of the class.

[Xionanx]

If we are not talking about making the Rogue "Statistacly comparable" to other melee DPS and are instead talking about making it fun...

Then you will have to do what I have been saying needed done for YEARS now.. pretty much the whole game needs a complete rework from the ground up. You need to pull a SWG "Combat Overhual" and spend a good year reworking every single mechanic in the game, in secret.. and then just drop it on everyone.

Seriously:

Attack animation speeds for ALL classess have always been an issue.
MOB AC, HP's, TO hit bonus's, etc.. have ALWAYS been an issue
Player HP's AC, etc.. have ALWAYS been an issue.
so on and so forth..

Basically, when the game LAUNCHED it was BALANCED for level 8 content.. and it worked fine for level 8 content.. but power creep.. power creep.. power creep.

The game as it is now is an unbalanced abomination of "house rules" shoe horned into a "D20" system corpse..

I would be perfectly OK with just outright scrapping the D20 system entirely, and completely reworking everything to be relevant to "todays" DDO. I mean.. who still takes HAGGLE?

TOO Ambitious a task? How about "The Great Nerfing" where you stick with the current mechanics but you nerf the **** out of EVERYTHING.

NO Skill bonus's on gear
NO +HIT bonus's on gear
NO +Damage from "Damage" gear
AP benefits scaled back significantly (I wouldn't mind seeing the AP system dropped entirely, and just let people play a class using just what the class gives.. THEN ROGUES MIGHT BE MORE USEFULL)

Could you picture it.. a game where you level to 20 and you only have like 120HP a 40AC and can only hit a 45AC on a natural 20... rather then having a +60 TO hit bonus

[FuryFlash]

Was this assassin fun? YES. But, it's not now. You can see many good assassin players left their favorite class, including me.
Don't gimp assassins because they can disable traps.
Actually, traps just slow assassin who is the slowest in DDO. Almost no one cares about traps except xp bonus.

Hi draven. This isn't meant to be rude or mean or anything, just want to make sure that you are well informed. When you say, "Almost no one cares about traps", I would most certainly not agree. The people who do not care about traps are the people running builds with great PRR and MRR or (yes, it still exists ) evasion + reflex. And while browsing the forums may lead one to think that everyone is running elites with the best builds in the game and not having any difficulty, this is not true for the majority of the game's population.

Since we are talking about changes to assassin that will affect everyone, it would be best not to group everyone into the same category. As I believe has been stated before in this thread, balancing classes isn't only about DPS and survivability, it's about having fun and being able to use your class skills, like trapping. Taking trapping for example, I personally find that I need a trapper to survive many traps in elite quests if I'm not playing my paladin, or another class that has been recently "balanced". So, do not throw away this skill as simply slowing oneself down.

Thanks for reading, again, not meant to insult, just give my opinion and remind everyone that all players should be considered, not just the people on the forums.

~FuryFlash

[Pehtis]

Fee fie foe fum. Is this the smell of a powercreep thread.

No, no, no, no! Definitely not!








Assassin tree should be redesigned like Chuck Norris FoTW.

[draven1]

Fee fie foe fum. Is this the smell of a powercreep thread.

No, no, no, no! Definitely not!








Assassin tree should be redesigned like Chuck Norris FoTW.

But, Chuck Norris is already in DDO. The barb/pally/bards

Didn't you realize Chuck Norris use 'Coup de Grace'?

[HatsuharuZ]

But, Chuck Norris is the barb/pally/bard in DDO

Didn't you realize Chuck Norris use 'Coup de Grace'?

That's not Coup de Grace, that's his auto-attack.

[draven1]

That's not Coup de Grace, that's his auto-attack.

Yup, I missed that point.
With his 1-20/x99 crit

[Bobby88888]

Firstly I want to add my voice to the ‘make traps deadly again’ group, for too long have we lived free from the shadow of the dreaded trap!
And on that note...Having had nothing better to do and wanting to try help you help Rogue for us I figured I would have a go at redoing the tree myself. It is far from perfect and I havn’t looked at balance anywhere near as much as I should but I only have so much spare time . At the very least it shows my ideas well and helps with some improvements. Most of the buffs happen slowly over time or are in the T5/core 18/capstone to lock out multi-treeing and to put the buffs mostly for epics. Many of the values probably need adjusting but that is what this whole phase is for. Some values I wasn't sure about, such as ammount of MP per core and % bonus of MP to SA etc but feel free to suggest better values for any of them.

I hope this helps.

Core Abilities:
Knife in the Darkness: AP cost: 1, Rog lvl 1. You gain proficiency with Kukris. You may now use your dex mod to hit with Daggers and Kukris. Additionally you gain 3 Melee Power, 1% dodge bypass and 5% fort bypass per core in assassin tree.

Dagger in the Back: AP cost:1, Progression:5, Rog lvl 3. You can now use your dex mod for damage with kukris and daggers. If you have Weapon Finesse feat this also applies to weapons you can use your dex mod to hit with. (doesn’t work with handwraps/unarmed).

Assassin’s Trick: AP cost: 1, Progression: 10, Rog lvl 6. Target looses 25% fort and their Sneak Attack immunity (with all other proposed changes) You gain 1d6 SA die.

Nimbleness: AP cost: 1, Progression: 20, Rog lvl 12. +3 dodge and 5 PRR. On Sneak Attack, up to once every 2 seconds, you gain 1% dodge for 6 seconds. Stacks up to 10 times, fades 2 stack at a time.

Lethality: AP cost: 1, Progression: 30, Rog lvl 18. When you vorpal your Sneak Attack damage is now effected by your weapon Critical Multiplier. +1 SA die.

Deadly Shadow: AP cost: 1, Progression: 40, Rog lvl 20. +2 dex, +2 int, +4 SA dice. Your SA damage is now effected by 200% melee power.

**If applying Melee Power to every core is too much the lvl 1 and 3 cores are particularly unattractive since harper was released. Feel free to chuck Int to hit/dmg there if you want but otherwise give some larger Melee Power boosts there and smaller or no boost on other cores.

Tier One:
Poison Strikes I: AP cost: 1, Progression: 1. Opponents Struck by these attacks are effected by “Assassin’s Mark” for 10 seconds. A poison applies all effects of the ‘level’ achieved and all ‘levels’ below it (ie. On a crit target suffers 1d8 poison damage and 1d6 con damage). CD 6 seconds.

Hearseeker Poison: Melee Poison Attack: On damage: 1d8 pierce damage, On Crit: 1d6 Con damage, On vorpal: Heartseeker (-5% max HP)

Ice Chill Poison: Melee Poison Attack: On damage: 1d8 cold damage, On Crit: 1d6 Dex damage, On vorpal: Paralysis (for 5 seconds)

Soulshatter Poison: Melee Poison Attack: On damage: 1d8 force damage, On crit 1d6 Wis damage, On vorpal: Shattermantle (-100 SR for 10 seconds)
** My ideas for the poisons here arn’t that great but as it stands their only use would be for applying Assassin’s Mark, I’ve tried to give more incentive to them.

Dodge: AP cost 1, Ranks 3, Progression 1. +1/2/3 % dodge.

Shiv: AP cost: 1, Ranks: 3, Progression: 1. Melee Attack: +1/+2/+3 [W] damage and triggers a free (read no animation) aoe bluff check using your bluff skill. Passive: Threat generated by your attacks is reduced by 5/10/15 %

Sneak Attack Training I: AP cost 1, Ranks: 1, Progression: 1. You gain +1 SA die. (Or leave as is, I never felt +1 to hit was worth 1 AP though. (Halfling SA line is 1 SA die for 1 AP))

Stealthy: AP cost: 1, Ranks: 3, Progression: 1. +1/2/3 Hide/Move Silently and +25/50/75% movement speed while sneaking. (no fun being left behind while sneaking, if you think too much just make the old bonus numbers but I think combining these is a good idea)

Tier Two:
Poison Strikes II: AP cost: 1, Ranks: 1, Progression: 5. As Poison Strikes I.

Venomed Blades: AP cost 1, Ranks 3, Progression: 5. Poison Stance: On hit do 1d4/1d6/1d8 poison damage with weapon attacks. (Note scales with 200% Melee Power) Vorpal hits made while under the effects of Venomed Blades apply Assassin’s Mark to the target.
If target is currently effected by Assassin’s Mark damage is increased by 1 die step (ie. 1d6/1d8/1d10) or scales with 250% melee power? (I just think it would be cool to tie this into the Poison/Assassin’s mark line)

Bleed Them Out: AP cost 1, Ranks 3, Progression 5. Melee Attack: Deal +1/2/3 [W] damage and inflict 1 stack of Bleed on target, or 2 on crit and 3 on vorpal. Stacks 5 times. (CD 6 seconds). Bleed does 1d6 damage per 5 Rogue and Epic levels every 2 seconds for 14 seconds (scales 200% with Melee Power).

Sneak Attack Training II: AP cost 1, Ranks 1, Progression 5, Requires Sneak Attack Training I. As Above.

Action Boost Multiselector: AP cost 1, Ranks 3, Progression 5. Melee Power Boost: gain +10/20/30 Melee Power for 20 seconds. (CD 30 seconds)
Ranged Power Boost: As above but ranged power.
NOTE: If putting in Mechanic or too OP just drop Ranged Power option.

Tier Three:
Poison Strikes III: AP cost: 1, Ranks: 1, Progression: 10. As Poison Strikes I.

Critical Mastery: AP cost 1, Ranks 3, Progression 10. +1/2/3 bonus to critical damage and to confirm critical hits.

Shadow Dagger: AP cost 1, Ranks 3, Progression 10. Throw a dagger made of shadows at your enemy. Deals 4/6/8 d8 unholy damage and Blinds target on failed Fort save. DC 10/12/14 + Rog lvl + Int mod negates blindness. (CD 30/20/10 seconds). Scales with 100% Melee Power.

Sneak Attack Training II: AP cost 1, Ranks 1, Progression 10, Requires Sneak Attack Training II. As Above.

Dexterity or Intelligence: AP cost 2, Ranks 1, Progression 10. +1 Dex or Int.

Tier Four:
Weakness Poison: AP cost 1, Ranks 1, Progression 20. Your attacks against enemies under the effects of Assassin’s Mark reduce the Melee and Ranged power of opponent by 10 for 10 seconds.

Execute: AP cost 2, Ranks 1, Progression 20, Requires: Critical Mastery. Melee Assassinate Attack: Deals +3 [W] damage. On Sneak Attack: If target is below 50% HP, deal 500 bane damage, 600 on crit or 700 if vorpal. This scales 200% with Melee Power. CD 15 seconds. (50% is an easy to see marker compared to 30% etc. A good example is in FoT different ppl will often call out dragon or giant HP to be different at the same time. Alternatively do away with the health % to trigger).

Killer: AP cost 1, Ranks 3, Progression 20, Requirements: Critical Mastery (If both Killer and Execute can’t hinge off Critical Mastery drop Requirement here). When a target under the effects of your Assassin’s Mark dies you gain a +5% morale bonus to Doublestrike and Doubleshot for 15 seconds. Weak enemies will not always produce this effect. This stacks up to 2/3/4 times and fades 1 stack at a time (or stacks 2/3/5 or 2/4/6 times and all stacks go on expiration.)

Sneak Attack Training IV: AP cost 1, Ranks 1, Progression 20, Requires Sneak Attack Training III. As Above.

Dexterity or Intelligence II: AP cost 2, Ranks 1, Progression 20, Requires: Dexterity or Intelligence I. +1 dex or Int.

Tier 5:
Deadly Poison: AP cost 1, Ranks 1, Progression 30. Your attacks against enemies effected by Assassin’s Mark are treated as having 5 more melee power.

Assassinate: AP cost 1, Ranks 1, Progression 30. Stealth Melee Assassinate Attack: On Sneak Attack: Kills target instantly if the target fails a Fortitude save (DC 10+ Rogue level + Int Mod) Even on successful save target takes 10d6 additional Sneak Attack damage. Some enemies may have resistance or immunity to Sneak Attacks. This attack gives enemies within 5 ft of target a bonus to spot for a short time (bonus added after 2nd/3rd assassinate attempts).

Measure the Foe: AP cost 1, Ranks 3, Progression 30. For every 4/2/1 seconds that you remain stealthed you gain +1 to hit, your Assassinate DC, 2 melee power, 2 dodge, 2 maximum dodge and 2 maximum dexterity bonus. This effect stacks up to 5 times and lasts 10 seconds after you come out of stealth (the 1st stack lasts 10 seconds and each subsequent stack lasts 3 seconds. I dunno if that is possible to get in but I recon it is better. Otherwise the 10 seconds and all gone.)
Did Sev say the Melee Power was going to be boosted to 4/stack? If so apply that change here too.

Light Armour Mastery: AP cost 1, Ranks 3, Progression 30. While wearing light armour you gain +2/4/6 maximum dexterity bonus to your armour and to dodge cap. You also gain +5/10/15 PRR

Knife Specialisation: AP cost 2, Ranks 1, Progression 30. You gain a +1 competence bonus to the Critical Damage Multiplier with Daggers and Kukris. Daggers also gain a +1 competence bonus to Critical Threat Range. Your reach with Daggers and Kukris is also increased by 5 feet.


So for anyone thinking that is too powerful, maybe it is, but I am going to do a little math down here and maybe some recommended changes but ultimately this was to lay out my ideas more than to give the devs a tree to cut and paste (feel free to but). BUT if it is too powerful to start with the devs will probably fix it quickly whilst if it remains on the weak side it could be years before another pass, they simply don’t have time to revamp it twice.
PRR: You can get +20 PRR now for 77 PRR as a pure Rogue Assassin or 43.5% reduction. IMO 77 PRR is probably about right or perhaps a little low but I think that it will probably be alright. (though if the PRR from armour type changes go through more might be needed in here?). Rogues are traditionally more squishy and I agree with this, though for this tradition to hold true they need to do good damage...

DODGE CAP: There is +6 permanent boost to dodge cap in the tree with the 10 temporary possible from measure for a permanent dodge cap of 33 with ship buffs and 43 temporary. The temporary may be getting a bit high but it doesn’t last long so I think it might be alright.

DODGE: The tree lets you add +6% dodge all up, which by lvl 28 lets you get 23 from Rogue/Assassin and items alone which I think is good, maybe a few % low but passable.
Melee Power: There is 18 permanent Melee Power added over the cores with a further 45 (or 55, depending on the 2 or 4 per stack of Measure the Foe) temporary melee power in the tree. Assuming the Assassin is using max Melee Power at lvl 28 and in Shadowdancer; they will go from 51 to 69 permanent with 45 or 55 more temp. Barbarian can get 30 Permanent, 40/50 temp, so let’s say they get 70 so I think the 73 from Assassin is alright when you consider 55 of it is temporary. If too high can either drop the measure the foe bonus to 2 per stack or cores to 2 per core.

DAMAGE (SA): Lets assume I have 35d6 SA damage with the above 69 and 124 Melee Powers. Base SA dmg then = 122.5. With permanent MP= 207 + capstone= 414. As a standard SA it sounds good. Now we scored a vorpal, we can get a significant boost to ~1200 damage with a 3x multiplier but given mob HP in EE I think as a vorpal only this is OK.
Temporary: assuming full temp MP active: 274.4 ~ 70 increase, + capstone: 548.8 ~140 increase. Assuming we vorpal we get ~1650. This feels on the high side to me but we are running an action boost and 2 other temporary bonuses that had to be set up and chained together, so up to you. I think reducing the temporary Melee Power rather than to the vorpal or 200% effect is better if you take that route. (although a 175% or something might work?)

HEALING: Well I got no ideas on how to implement this for Rogue/Assassin. In fact I would be opposed to it if Rogue wasn’t the only one without it, even then I hesitate, since while even one class remains that way I can cling to the (vain?) hope we might go back and stop this madness.

OTHER: I would also like to specifically point you to the Killer, Execute, Deadly Poison and Nimbleness changes. As well as the Sneak Attack Training changes. These are some of my key points to apply to Assassin.

Thanks for bearing with me there through the wall of text but Assassin is my favourite build option and I’ve been thinking about ideas for it for a long time I may overdone it here but as I said better to overdo it and have it reigned back on Lam or in a patch then underdo it and not have the time to go back over it again for years.
Go ahead forumites, tear it to pieces lol.

[redoubt]

Sev, thank you again for remaining active in the thread.

Based some of the recent posts, I want to reiterate a few things:

1. I proposed some mitigation to tremor sense be put in.

2. Some percentage of immunity to True Seeing and See Invis (I suggested 25% in the captstone.)

3. I suggested (and others have also) that Nimbleness add to max dodge while it is active.

4. Many of us have suggested a mild bump in PRR from Light Armor Mastery.

5. The biggest change would be to bring assassin total dps (including SA and other add on damages) up equal or slightly ahead of the bard/barb/pali group.
--- one way to help with this is to increase damage on helpless targets. I proposed 4 options for this previously.

The vision would be somewhere just a little more survivable than a glass canon. Very good DPS when you do NOT have agro and the ability to take 2 to 3 hits without dying. (Compare that to my pali who does top rate dps and can take dozens of hits without dying.) If I was to rank them, I'd put assassins at #1 or #2 for non-magical dps and just above sorcs and wizards for survivability (not saying that is where they are now, but rather where I would put them.)

Under survivability you have damage avoidance, mitigation and healing. Rogue healing is poor (I've done it with scroll before, yes, its poor.) Avoidance via dodge is decent, but avoidance via AC is poor. Mitigation is poor. The things I think would be easiest to fix are:
1. avoidance: Stick with dodge. Get a well geared assassin floating between 35 and 50%. AC will continue to be poor.
2. Mitigation: Get rogues into the 40%+ mitigation range in epics. That's approx. 70PRR (not counting past lives)
3. Healing will continue to rely on out of class abilities and be poor.

Again, be an very good killer, but when things get pear shaped you only have a couple hits before you need to get out and heal up (but you can live through those couple hits).

I hope that the difference in bringing assassin up to its potential and making it an easy button are clear.
1. Yes, we are asking for top tier DPS, but the back side of it is being fragile.
2. Yes, we are asking for more mitigation, but really only 1/3 to 1/2 the PRR of the "tanky" builds. Just enough to stay alive long enough to exit combat and heal with our very poor healing abilities.
3. On the helpless damage, rogues would depend on others to make them helpless. Not only does this encourage team play and actually paying attention to what the others in your group are doing, but it also fits well thematically.

[General_Gronker]

Firstly I want to add my voice to the ‘make traps deadly again’ group,

Every time I see this, I can only think two things:
1. Quit running min-maxed characters with countless past lives and the best farmed gear and then expect the Devs to cater to your needs.
or
2. Start running content on settings that matter.

Why? Because for those of us who run elite, but aren't maxed to the max, the traps are still pretty **** deadly, and frankly, we're a more important part of the player base.

[Bobby88888]

Every time I see this, I can only think two things:
1. Quit running min-maxed characters with countless past lives and the best farmed gear and then expect the Devs to cater to your needs.
or
2. Start running content on settings that matter.

Why? Because for those of us who run elite, but aren't maxed to the max, the traps are still pretty **** deadly, and frankly, we're a more important part of the player base.

Just an FYI most of my toons are 1st life with sub optimal gear and builds. My toon with most PLs has 2. (Life 3)

That isn't to say they are gimps they just aren't as good as I could make them with more investment.

Based on this I STRONGLY disagree with you. Unless we are talking heroic, most heroic traps are alright.

[Bobby88888]

1. avoidance: Stick with dodge. Get a well geared assassin floating between 35 and 50%. AC will continue to be poor.
.

The only issue with a really high dodge is if we hit say 50% dodge then we have uncanny dodge for 100% dodge, ie unhittable. And you can use it over and over again.
On that note we need a higher dodge than currently but it cannot go too high.

[redoubt]

The only issue with a really high dodge is if we hit say 50% dodge then we have uncanny dodge for 100% dodge, ie unhittable. And you can use it over and over again.
On that note we need a higher dodge than currently but it cannot go too high.

The dodge above ~35 would be temp sources of dodge. I.e. Nimbleness and Measure the Foe.

I had explained once before how I thought this would look. I.e. Start at 33%, sneak and boost up to 43%. Start the fight and MtF starts to fade and Nimbleness builds up. Might briefly climb above 43 while nimbleness grows faster than MtF fades, but then you drop back down to 43 (33 base + 10 temp from nimbleness.)

Too high or about right?

[Bobby88888]

The dodge above ~35 would be temp sources of dodge. I.e. Nimbleness and Measure the Foe.

I had explained once before how I thought this would look. I.e. Start at 33%, sneak and boost up to 43%. Start the fight and MtF starts to fade and Nimbleness builds up. Might briefly climb above 43 while nimbleness grows faster than MtF fades, but then you drop back down to 43 (33 base + 10 temp from nimbleness.)

Too high or about right?

Honestly I'm not sure but 43% is where my proposed tree idea hit at max. It shouldn't be going any higher but. Sorry, I misunderstood before as a permanent dodge that high for some reason

[Ayseifn]

The only issue with a really high dodge is if we hit say 50% dodge then we have uncanny dodge for 100% dodge, ie unhittable. And you can use it over and over again.
On that note we need a higher dodge than currently but it cannot go too high.

Meld Into Darkness already does that for 15 secs/2 mins, not seeing the huge issue.