Rogue - Assassin Changes

[bbqzor]

Venomed Blades is too expensive though, it should be 1/1/1 AP for its effect.

Finally. Been saying this (or that the dmg needs to go up to match 2 ap) since it came out. Thanks. Even with melee power it was way behind, this will make it actually pretty good, most people will be trying to find points for it. Good change.

[HatsuharuZ]

If possible, could you please add the ability to use daggers and/or kukris as ki weapons to this tree? Currently, a monk/rogue build can only be unarmed, use shortswords and and q-staves and remain centered. This change would only affect multi-class builds, but I feel that it doesn't make sense for monks to be able to use shortswords and not daggers, which are smaller and lighter.

[Saekee]

If possible, could you please add the ability to use daggers and/or kukris as ki weapons to this tree? Currently, a monk/rogue build can only be unarmed, use shortswords and and q-staves and remain centered. This change would only affect multi-class builds, but I feel that it doesn't make sense for monks to be able to use shortswords and not daggers, which are smaller and lighter.

Though I am splashing these two in my current build and a future one, I think that would be OP. Lots of things like handaxes could be centering for a monk but the limiting factor is there for game balance.
The epic midnight greetings is centering, anyway (as its crummy heroic version).

Speaking of which, any chance of updating the midnight greetings? I would add keen to the epic version since rogues go IC: piercing so often for the better named daggers like Agony and Guardian of Liturgy for heroics.

The heroic is a complete joke. i would make it like the Tiefling's Assassin blade.

[Mryal]

If possible, could you please add the ability to use daggers and/or kukris as ki weapons to this tree? Currently, a monk/rogue build can only be unarmed, use shortswords and and q-staves and remain centered. This change would only affect multi-class builds, but I feel that it doesn't make sense for monks to be able to use shortswords and not daggers, which are smaller and lighter.

No.Just no.Monk/rogue should be using shortsword or unarmed.Thats what they did for ages before enhancement changes.What needs to be done is fixing the actual subpar unarmed/handwrap combat.TRing my monk tank to SNB pally was necessary, granted it was fun for the first month.But iwant my monk back, i dont wanna be playing unbalanced classes.If anyone needs a melee buff, if any tree neds revision, its ALL monk trees , and its monk.Much more than rogue that turbine is doing, and even more so than ranger wich people are asking for.

Why not make it a secondary assassinate ability? I mean, it is called execute, and you're certainly not executing anything with 500 damage multiplied by 200 melee power.

This.And the ability sucks, this whole low % mechanic sucks tbh.Theres no pratical way to tell if the mob is in 30% hp or less other than approximate guessing.Some other form of assassinate or some form of burst damage would fit the tree more.
I also think that people are underestimating venomed blades.

[HatsuharuZ]

Though I am splashing these two in my current build and a future one, I think that would be OP. Lots of things like handaxes could be centering for a monk but the limiting factor is there for game balance.
The epic midnight greetings is centering, anyway (as its crummy heroic version).

How so? shortswords are 1d6 weapons while daggers are 1d4 weapons, and both have the same crit profile.

[Fedora1]

How so? shortswords are 1d6 weapons while daggers are 1d4 weapons, and both have the same crit profile.

Assassins get a higher crit profile with daggers. Knife Specialization.

[slarden]

I can see your point, but nothing about assassin really has anything to do with ranged. The tree is melee based so I'm not sure that ranged power really has a place. Plus, harper is currently the only source of enhancement based ranged power. I would expect it to be added to various trees with the ranged pass. I don't think they should be adding in ranged power piecemeal with the individual tree revamps. It should be done all at once for proper balance (not that balance has ever been achieved in DDO, but no reason not to keep trying, I guess). I would expect to find ranged power in the mechanic tree, whenever that one gets updated.

I agree with not making rogue trees something that helps ranged builds outside of the mechanic tree. There are a few really solid ranged builds that splash 4 rogue for sneak attack + no mercy to stack with sense weakness.

If the idea is to help builds with a high # of rogue levels rather than splashes, ranged power shouldn't be a priority.

[slarden]

Assassin capstones of 18 and 20 have got to be better.

Agreed - some doublestrike + fortification bypass in the assassin capstone would be nice. Perhaps +2% doublestrike and +5% fortification bypass?

[Zengar]

This.And the ability sucks, this whole low % mechanic sucks tbh.Theres no pratical way to tell if the mob is in 30% hp or less other than approximate guessing.Some other form of assassinate or some form of burst damage would fit the tree more.
I also think that people are underestimating venomed blades.

If you're dealling with a monster whose type is in the manual, the ability to see their HP is one of the account level rewards. Not a perfect answer since there's a lot of stuff out there that isn't in the manuals yet, but it is there. As for practicality, I reached that point with one monster type before I reached epic levels with a character that was level 12 when the manuals first came out. By the time I TRd, I had added a couple more of the common types. Yes I wasn't playing this character exclusively, but it does give some idea on the time frame.

[redoubt]

Severlin,

What is your overall vision for rogues and in specific for assassins?

Where do you want them to rank in offense?

Where do you want them to rank in defense?

I ask because I see posts discussing paladins and bards as having both the best defense and best offense at the same time. Similarly, I've read discussions about the huge gap in mitigation on a rogue without having top tier offense. Most seem to think that it would be okay for a rogue to have a weakness in mitigation (as it currently does), IF it was the highest melee DPS (but most do not feel it is even close to bard, barb or paladins). Where do you want the rogues to fall in these sorts of discussions? If we better understand the goal you have in mind, we may be able to provide better feedback on how well the changes are or are not achieving the stated goals.

[Severlin]

Severlin,

What is your overall vision for rogues and in specific for assassins?

Assassins should be fun for players who enjoy that type of play style.
The do good damage in a group because they can deliver lots of sneak attack damage when monsters are focused on others.
The are fun solo because they have good burst out of stealth and lots of tricks, but they are harder to play than, say, barbarian.

(Rogues also have a lot of non-combat advantages.)

Where do you want them to rank in offense?

Where do you want them to rank in defense?

I ask because I see posts discussing paladins and bards as having both the best defense and best offense at the same time. Similarly, I've read discussions about the huge gap in mitigation on a rogue without having top tier offense. Most seem to think that it would be okay for a rogue to have a weakness in mitigation (as it currently does), IF it was the highest melee DPS (but most do not feel it is even close to bard, barb or paladins). Where do you want the rogues to fall in these sorts of discussions? If we better understand the goal you have in mind, we may be able to provide better feedback on how well the changes are or are not achieving the stated goals.

We are more interested in "is this class fun for people who like that playstyle" than ranks. I suspect any discussion about ranks will involve a lot of "how do we define the ranks?" and "by what criteria are we ranking the class?" Some people will rank classes by speed in which they can complete content solo but that's not really a criteria we'd use. Some might use face to face survival times. How do we add the ability to disarm traps to rankings? That question will, I suspect, vary from player to player and be totally arbitrary. Discussions of ranking will like devolve quickly into areas that are not productive.

Sev~

[CThruTheEgo]

Sev, I see you added spinning staff wall to acrobat. That solves the damage mitigation problem for acrobats, but what about assassins? They still need some way to handle spike damage. I offered some suggestions in this post.

[Monkey-Boy]

interested in "is this class fun for people who like that playstyle" than ranks. I suspect any discussion about ranks will involve a lot of "how do we define the ranks?" and "by what criteria are we ranking the class?" Some people will rank classes by speed in which they can complete content solo but that's not really a criteria we'd use. Some might use face to face survival times. How do we add the ability to disarm traps to rankings? That question will, I suspect, vary from player to player and be totally arbitrary. Discussions of ranking will like devolve quickly into areas that are not productive.

Sev~

Nonsense, just rank them on a 1-10 scale. If you guys mapped that stuff out BEFORE making bards/pallies/barbs godmode you wouldn't have put us in the mess was are in now.

Traps are irrelevant, nobody will care about traps unless they are actually dangerous enough to kill people.

[CThruTheEgo]

Assassins should be fun for players who enjoy that type of play style.

...snip...

We are more interested in "is this class fun for people who like that playstyle" than ranks.

I am glad that this is how you are looking at it. Assassins specifically have a unique playstyle, and I personally don't want to see that changed. But the game has changed such that spike damage is a problem that needs addressing. I don't think assassins should have tank like PRR, but they need some sort of damage mitigation to manage the spike damage that they will inevitably get. No amount of damage avoidance will help with that problem.

[draven1]

Assassins should be fun for players who enjoy that type of play style.
The do good damage in a group because they can deliver lots of sneak attack damage when monsters are focused on others.
The are fun solo because they have good burst out of stealth and lots of tricks, but they are harder to play than, say, barbarian.

(Rogues also have a lot of non-combat advantages.)

Think why most advanced assassin players left their favorite class. Because it's not fun anymore even if you like that type of play style.
It seems DDO does not support that type of play anymore.
Good damage? When other melees can rofl-faceroll the hardest content solo, what's the point of good damage of assassin?

Assassin doesn't have good damage even in group now.
My assassin have almost every source of damage & sneak attack for 95% situation & assassinate 1 or 2 mob every 15 sec, but, he can't literally catch other melees now. I myself can kill faster & easier with other classes even I was an assassin for 6+ years.

Yup, rogues have lots of non-combat advantages. But, WHO CARES IT when everyone can self-heal, rez, bypass traps, better survivalability?

We are more interested in "is this class fun for people who like that playstyle" than ranks. I suspect any discussion about ranks will involve a lot of "how do we define the ranks?" and "by what criteria are we ranking the class?" Some people will rank classes by speed in which they can complete content solo but that's not really a criteria we'd use. Some might use face to face survival times. How do we add the ability to disarm traps to rankings? That question will, I suspect, vary from player to player and be totally arbitrary. Discussions of ranking will like devolve quickly into areas that are not productive.

Sev~

Was this assassin fun? YES. But, it's not now. You can see many good assassin players left their favorite class, including me.
Don't gimp assassins because they can disable traps.
Actually, traps just slow assassin who is the slowest in DDO. Almost no one cares about traps except xp bonus.

[Fedora1]

Yup, rogues have lots of non-combat advantages. But, WHO CARES IT when everyone can self-heal, rez, bypass traps, better survivalability?



Was this assassin fun? YES. But, it's not now. You can see many good assassin players left their favorite class, including me.
Don't gimp assassins because they can disable traps.
Actually, traps just slow assassin who is the slowest in DDO. Almost no one cares about traps except xp bonus.

So what made assassins fun before?

And if the only "fun" class now is the max dps, self heal, and zerg through content without slowing down, then why should you play an assassin rather than a pally, bard, or barb?

Everyone is asking for is the same thing for every class. So why have different classes if they all play the same way?

1. Fast movement.
2. Max dps.
3. Max damage avoidance or mitigation.
4. All classes do everything equally well (or rather my favorite class must not be behind any other class in any area).

So the style is enter quest, run max speed w/o slowing down as you kill all mobs, end quest, get xp. Check the stop watch to make sure it was faster than the other class (which I don't play). If it was slower, it is gimp and not worth playing this class anymore.

-draven this is not aimed at you, I just used your post since it was the latest in echoing what many have stated.

In a PvE game, such as DDO, it is less important that all classes be equally good at all things or even 100% perfectly balanced IMO.

[draven1]

So what made assassins fun before?

And if the only "fun" class now is the max dps, self heal, and zerg through content without slowing down, then why should you play an assassin rather than a pally, bard, or barb?

Everyone is asking for is the same thing for every class. So why have different classes if they all play the same way?

1. Fast movement.
2. Max dps.
3. Max damage avoidance or mitigation.
4. All classes do everything equally well (or rather my favorite class must not be behind any other class in any area).

If you saw my previous posts, I didn't request 3, 4.
Actually, I posted nerf requests for other over-powered aspects of the game.

I requested an assassin should be squishy, but deadly & nimble. That fits 1,2, but not 3,4.

An assassin will not be FOTM builds by any means, because their DPS is tied with sneak attack, not just raw auto-attack DPS & they are not good at facerolling contents with insanely high hp, saves, PRR/MRR, with insane DPS.

Assassin game play need tactical thinking, not fitting mindless zerg FOTM at all.

[Thrudh]

We are more interested in "is this class fun for people who like that playstyle" than ranks. I suspect any discussion about ranks will involve a lot of "how do we define the ranks?" and "by what criteria are we ranking the class?" Some people will rank classes by speed in which they can complete content solo but that's not really a criteria we'd use. Some might use face to face survival times. How do we add the ability to disarm traps to rankings? That question will, I suspect, vary from player to player and be totally arbitrary. Discussions of ranking will like devolve quickly into areas that are not productive.

I am SO glad you are in charge...

This is exactly the right type of thinking...

[Thrudh]

Everyone is asking for is the same thing for every class. So why have different classes if they all play the same way?

1. Fast movement.
2. Max dps.
3. Max damage avoidance or mitigation.
4. All classes do everything equally well (or rather my favorite class must not be behind any other class in any area).

So the style is enter quest, run max speed w/o slowing down as you kill all mobs, end quest, get xp. Check the stop watch to make sure it was faster than the other class (which I don't play). If it was slower, it is gimp and not worth playing this class anymore.

This. Exactly this. I am so glad Sev isn't listening to the people who play like that. Because those are the people who are bored out of their minds... And it's their own fault.

Instead of trying to play differently as a rogue, they want the devs to change rogues so they can play the exact same way they play a barbarian... Don't do it devs!

[oradafu]

This. Exactly this. I am so glad Sev isn't listening to the people who play like that. Because those are the people who are bored out of their minds... And it's their own fault.

Instead of trying to play differently as a rogue, they want the devs to change rogues so they can play the exact same way they play a barbarian... Don't do it devs!

If the Devs actually supported Rogues with quest design that allow non-brute force in the game, such as sneaking, then maybe players would be playing that way more. You can't fault players complaining about such things when mobs are HP meatbags, spawn in clustered groups, all of them must be killed before advancing the quest while the endgame leans heavily Undead and Construct. Add in there that Champions have thrown a heavy wrench on top of everything.

Examples of poor quest design: The whole Druid's Deep chain consists of killing all mobs, instead of a few key mobs, to advance. Epic Necro4 consists of almost exclusively anti-sneak attack mobs.

Quests either need to be designed smarter or more diverse. As I said before, this was a similar problem Paladins had before their pass. And here's a hint, if Undead and Epic Animals were to switch places, we'd be talking about almost exclusively the same mobs: Constructs, Elementals, Plants.