Rogue - Assassin Changes

[Full_Bleed]

Right... its a T3 twist, because as an ASSASSIN, most will be in Shadow Dancer because it gives INT.

Its a lot to assume that all assassin's can even afford a T3 twist. When that is the prevailing answer to assassin CC, I think its safe to say that assassin's do not have good CC abilities.

Further, it's an "on vorpal" ability that only lasts 2 seconds.

Worst. Crowd. Control. Ever.

[redoubt]

I've seen a couple of comments like this; the quoted ability already does scale into Epic. That's the whole point of the addition of Melee Power; so heroic abilities scale into epic. If you see "scales with X% Melee Power" that essentially means "scales into Epic levels."

Sev~

I understand what you are trying to do here. If an assassin had significant melee power I might agree. But I don't see how "scales with 200% melee power" matters much when I only have 50.

Take venomed blades. Right now it costs 6 AP and gives 1d8 poison damage. 4.5 average. Scale that with 50 melee power and you get 6.75. Again, if I was at 200 melee power and got 13.5 it would be better, but still not worth 6 ap.

I'm one of the people who talked about abilities not scaling, but I didn't specify into epic. Both venomed blades and bleed them out scale poorly even in heroic levels. If you made these two abilities scale up in dice during heroic levels and then scale up with melee power in epic, I think you would have created a couple of desirable enhancements.

I think execute scales fine because of the 3W and chance for 500 damage (though reports are coming in that the 500 is not scaling, so that part needs to be fixed.) I just though it would be cool to make this also an assassinate attempt if below 30%. That would scale very well into epic because at the low levels the 500 damage will be more than 30% of the mob hp and in epic you would get a chance to "finish off a mob" that has more than 500 with the assassinate proc, but still get the 500 if it fails.

[CThruTheEgo]

I've seen a couple of comments like this; the quoted ability already does scale into Epic. That's the whole point of the addition of Melee Power; so heroic abilities scale into epic. If you see "scales with X% Melee Power" that essentially means "scales into Epic levels."

Sev~

Perhaps a better way to phrase it is to say that epics don't scale well, particularly epic elites. When trash mobs have 10k+ hp and boss mobs have 100k+ hp, a mere 500-1500 damage on a 15 second cooldown is pretty useless. Execute is definitely not worth taking, no matter how you try to frame it.

Why not make it a secondary assassinate ability? I mean, it is called execute, and you're certainly not executing anything with 500 damage multiplied by 200 melee power.

Regarding the 2wf discussion that is emphatically not happening in this thread. I notice some posters asserting that 2wf is "the natural" way for an assassin to fight. The natural way for an assassin to fight is not to fight, but to hide in the shadows until the target is within range, place a hand over the targets mouth, slip an icepick between the appropriate vertebrae, drop the body and fade into the shadows. The way of the assassin is to murder the unsuspecting, not to run wildly flailing with a weapon in each hand through brightly lit passages filled with witnesses.

In pure theme, sure I'll agree with you, but not in practical application in DDO. Because when you're beating on a purple/red/orange named that can't be assassinated, you have to resort to raw dps, and in that situation twf is the obvious choice for an assassin. Also, because of the amount of sneak attack damage that assassins do, if you're not dpsing between assassinates, then you're neglecting a great deal of the build's potential.

[Blackheartox]

Further, it's an "on vorpal" ability that only lasts 2 seconds.

Worst. Crowd. Control. Ever.

Lol, do we play the same game?

[Wizza]

I've seen a couple of comments like this; the quoted ability already does scale into Epic. That's the whole point of the addition of Melee Power; so heroic abilities scale into epic. If you see "scales with X% Melee Power" that essentially means "scales into Epic levels."

Sev~

I understand what you are trying to do here. If an assassin had significant melee power I might agree. But I don't see how "scales with 200% melee power" matters much when I only have 50.

Take venomed blades. Right now it costs 6 AP and gives 1d8 poison damage. 4.5 average. Scale that with 50 melee power and you get 6.75. Again, if I was at 200 melee power and got 13.5 it would be better, but still not worth 6 ap.

I'm one of the people who talked about abilities not scaling, but I didn't specify into epic. Both venomed blades and bleed them out scale poorly even in heroic levels. If you made these two abilities scale up in dice during heroic levels and then scale up with melee power in epic, I think you would have created a couple of desirable enhancements.

I think execute scales fine because of the 3W and chance for 500 damage (though reports are coming in that the 500 is not scaling, so that part needs to be fixed.) I just though it would be cool to make this also an assassinate attempt if below 30%. That would scale very well into epic because at the low levels the 500 damage will be more than 30% of the mob hp and in epic you would get a chance to "finish off a mob" that has more than 500 with the assassinate proc, but still get the 500 if it fails.

Severlin, it's probably you who don't understand well. Making it "scale with X% Melee Power" doesn't make an ability suddenly good, it's as easy as that. The same goes for Venomed Blade: it costs 6 APs and it's still trash in epic levels. How to fix both of them:

1) Execute: lower the threshold to 50%. 50% is WAY easier to spot and allows for more than only using this ability once per mob. Second: increase the damage done to 1000 or scale it with 300% Melee Power

Interesting option: after a certain threshold, and I could accept 30% here, it will just insta-kill a mob with no save or even add an Int-based save. It has a 30s cooldown, it needs to be worth to spend points into this ability. Execute gives me the idea that after a certain threshold, this ability finishes off the mob.


2) Venomed Blade: LOWER THE AP COST. It should be 1/1/1. Second: make this into 1d10, 2d10, 3d10 that scales with Melee Power. This would make it a 12 dmg on average with 50 Melee Power, which is the double of the ability that we have now and it is much better for the cost.


The same goes for Bleed them out. This ability should be a passive with a 50% chance to stack on every hit, just like Vulnerable debuff IMHO.

[amsharkwei]

Core abilitie 5 :Lethality: Any sneak attack that also counts as a vorpal strike (attack roll of 20 followed by critical confirmation) that you make will kill most living targets.

this is useless in Epic level

rework it !

Lethality: Any attack have 5% chance make an Assassinate effect on your target(use your Assassinate DC).

[Hafeal]

This has been my experience on my level 28 assassin as well:

So, it's bugged now.I saw only 500 dmg on execute on 54 melee power, lvl 28. Always 500 dmg.When other melees can crit 3000+ or 6000+ on auto attack & 10k+ on smite, it's just useless now even it worked properly.It also breaks attack animation chain, so, it's not the gain on DPS, actually, it's HUGE LOSS of DPS.500 dmg on situational active attack is a joke like 2d6 dmg on shadowdancer EPIC MONENT. That's why no one use 'touch of death' now, either.I rather see execute affected by crits. 500*3(usual assassin crit multiflier)*1.5(melee power)=2250This skill requires a lot of player's attention(a.k.a player skill) to use properly because of hp limitation.But, still inferior than usual AUTO-ATTACK crits for blitzers How about boosting 200% or 300% melee power & affected by crits on execute?So, 500*3(melee power 200%) = 1500 on normal hit. Or 500*4(melee power 300%) = 2000 on normal hit.500*3(usual crit multiflier)*3(melee power 200%) = 4500 on crit hit. Or 500*3(usual crit multiflier)*4.5(melee power 300%) = 6750 on crit hit.

[CThruTheEgo]

2) Venomed Blade: LOWER THE AP COST. It should be 1/1/1. Second: make this into 1d10, 2d10, 3d10 that scales with Melee Power. This would make it a 12 dmg on average with 50 Melee Power, which is the double of the ability that we have now and it is much better for the cost.

I like your suggestions for execute, venomed blades, and bleed them out, and I'll second them, but your math is a bit off here. 3d10 is an average of 16.5 damage per hit, which is still not OP.

[Wizza]

I like your suggestions for execute, venomed blades, and bleed them out, and I'll second them, but your math is a bit off here. 3d10 is an average of 16.5 damage per hit, which is still not OP.

My bad. Never been good at DDO math

[Saekee]

The natural way for an assassin to fight is not to fight, but to hide in the shadows until the target is within range, place a hand over the targets mouth, slip an icepick between the appropriate vertebrae, drop the body and fade into the shadows. The way of the assassin is to murder the unsuspecting, not to run wildly flailing with a weapon in each hand through brightly lit passages filled with witnesses.

Great stuff Chaios!

[Saekee]

I'd like to highlight an earlier suggestion again (was that your's Quezuzu?) to add SAP as a bonus feat in the assassin cores. If it is early, like even the third core, it will aid low-level assassins. And it scales into epics!

This makes sense given some of the more useful bonus feats in other trees like deflect arrows appearing in tempest and swash tree--it is hardly a game breaker and fits with role of assassin

[Xionanx]

I've seen a couple of comments like this; the quoted ability already does scale into Epic. That's the whole point of the addition of Melee Power; so heroic abilities scale into epic. If you see "scales with X% Melee Power" that essentially means "scales into Epic levels."

Sev~

Once again I am left staring and the screen.... Please for the love of god, play your game. Op in what you consider to be an optimal assasin build, and then go do an EE quest.

Several pages back, I posted that even going to 500% melee power with these abilities is pointless, but I'll try to demonstrate with "math" why that is.

Asssasin - VS Epic Elite "Peasant" with 0 DR 0 Fort and 20,000 HP who is blind, deaf, and paralyzed. (20,000 HP is fairly common I think HP wise in EE mobs)

I'm just going to assume the assassin somehow magically always does max damage..

Venomed Blades - 1D8 Poison Damage on hit, equal to 0.0004% total monster health. (need to hit monster 2500 times to kill)

Bleed Them Out - (assuming max stacks AND infinite duration because you are applying it 100% of the time) 5d6 Damage every 2 deconds, equal to 0.0015% total monster health. (will take 1333 seconds to kill monster, or 22 minutes)

Execute - 500 Damage on hit, once every 15 seconds, when monster has less then 4000 HP (20%) or 6000HP (30% proposed change), will take 120/180 Seconds to "finish off" target.

Now, lets add 50 Melee power, which as I understand it works by 100+MP/100 * Damage done. And then the "Scales with melee power" takes that result and then multiplies it?

Venomed Blades - Normal MP scaling to my knowledge so 8 damage becomes 12

Bleed Them Out - 200% MP so 50% x 2 = 100% damage bonus = 60 Damage ever 2 seconds if "Max"

Execute - 200% MP os 50% x 2 = 100 Damage bonus = 1000 Damage every 15 seconds if below 30% health.

Which are all still way too low in proportion to the monster HP. Execute going to maybe 600% melee power might make it better. The "Dots" and venom need something like 800% melee power to be worth the AP IMO. That, or Rogue needs to get a LOT of melee power just passively added to its tree. something like an additional 10 melee power per rogue level for just being a rogue

[Thrudh]

Right... its a T3 twist, because as an ASSASSIN, most will be in Shadow Dancer because it gives INT.

Its a lot to assume that all assassin's can even afford a T3 twist.

If you're running epic elite, you should be able to afford a T3 twist. If you're running epic hard, you don't need a T3 twist.

[Thrudh]

Further, it's an "on vorpal" ability that only lasts 2 seconds.

Worst. Crowd. Control. Ever.

You obviously have never used it...

With TWF, it goes off quite often, and even though it says only 2 seconds, monsters have an animation when they stand back up, so they are really out of the fight for a good 4-5 seconds usually.

But you're right that helpless state doesn't last very long... It would be nice if the helpless state lasted for 4 seconds at least.

[amsharkwei]

Fighter's capstone gives +15%double strike
it's means +15% damage
in Epic level ,it's also +15% damage

Rogue's capstone +4D6 sneak attack
in Epic level ,4D6 damage is nothing

hehe

[Gothdom]

As a pure rogue assassin, I do so little damage that I'm ashamed to join groups for Epic Elite questing.

Most of it is I try to assassinate something (which misses more than not) then try not to die in the melee... or I have enough armor and evade to solo something (obviously not at EE level, maybe EH) but it takes an hour and a half to kill something.

I don't know what pushes you not to add a little more DC to assassinate. As for melee damage, I don't need to become a slasher like the barb is, but do more than what is proposed that's for sure.

[depositbox]

Assassin capstones of 18 and 20 have got to be better. Assassins should have high assassinate DCs. Shouldn't they? It makes the game more diverse. Take the champions with adrenaline, true seeing and fort reduction. You dont really want to stand in front of it and get hit twice. Give that set of buffs to all orange names. Even heavy armored toons wont really sit in front of something like that.

Assassins bring an insta-kill option to those encounters. Because they will never be able to stand in front of it and take even the first hit in most cases. Do the same for monks and QP. If bards with warchanter and swashbuckler (frozen fury and coup de grace) have not showed you how really meh those abilities are in the grand scheme of sitting in front of a red named and dpsing it down. They need to excel at their niche otherwise why bother playing one.

[Severlin]

I understand what you are trying to do here. If an assassin had significant melee power I might agree. But I don't see how "scales with 200% melee power" matters much when I only have 50.

Um, you know that something that scales with 200% Melee Power does *double* damage if you have 50?

Take venomed blades. Right now it costs 6 AP and gives 1d8 poison damage. 4.5 average. Scale that with 50 melee power and you get 6.75. Again, if I was at 200 melee power and got 13.5 it would be better, but still not worth 6 ap.

Well, it scales with 200% Melee Power so it would actually jump to 9 per hit.

I'm one of the people who talked about abilities not scaling, but I didn't specify into epic. Both venomed blades and bleed them out scale poorly even in heroic levels. If you made these two abilities scale up in dice during heroic levels and then scale up with melee power in epic, I think you would have created a couple of desirable enhancements.

I think execute scales fine because of the 3W and chance for 500 damage (though reports are coming in that the 500 is not scaling, so that part needs to be fixed.) I just though it would be cool to make this also an assassinate attempt if below 30%. That would scale very well into epic because at the low levels the 500 damage will be more than 30% of the mob hp and in epic you would get a chance to "finish off a mob" that has more than 500 with the assassinate proc, but still get the 500 if it fails.

Players tend to underestimate the effects of lots of little damage boosts but in total they can be significant. It will also continue to scale as players accumulate Melee Power on new gear.

The damage boost is appropriate for its place in the tree. Venomed Blades is too expensive though, it should be 1/1/1 AP for its effect.

Sev~

[redoubt]

If you're running epic elite, you should be able to afford a T3 twist. If you're running epic hard, you don't need a T3 twist.

The following are all just from heroic enhancements and not from caster trees. (You can add to this bard songs and druid melee attacks that can stun.) Yet, somehow a T3 epic destiny twist is the answer to rogue CC. Even if it is good CC (which people seem to disagree on), look at how much CC is available to other melee (and one for archers) in the heroic levels by comparison. I think it is pretty clear that I am correct when I say that ROGUES do not have CC.

Tantrum - 50% AOE KD

Knockout: Ear Smash puts enemies to sleep for 6/12/18 seconds. On Vorpal, enemies are stunned instead. Bug: Causes no-save helplessness for 6/12/18 seconds. Works on undead and constructs.

Visage of Terror: Terrorize up to six enemies, killing them with fear if they fail a Will save vs 10 + Constitution modifier + half barbarian level. Enemies who make their saving throw are paralyzed with Fear for six seconds instead. Doesn't affect bosses. (Cost 1 Rage. Cooldown: 30 seconds)

Low Blow: While Swashbuckling and wielding a Buckler in your off hand, activate to perform a shield bash with +2 Critical Threat Range and Multiplier. On hit, knock down affected enemy for three seconds (Perform + d20 saves for the Knockdown). Costs 10 Spell Points.

Slap in the Face: While Swashbuckling and wielding nothing in your off hand, activate to deal 1 Bludgeon damage. Damaged enemies can't cast spells for 6 seconds and are stunned for three seconds (Perform + d20 saves for the Stun). 18 second cooldown. Costs 10 Spell Points

The Frozen Fury: Make a melee attack with +(1/2/3)[W] damage. Affected enemies must make a Fortitude save (10 + Charisma modifier + 0/one-quarter/one-half Bard Level + Stunning modifiers) or become frozen solid for number of seconds equal to half of your Bard levels. Cooldown: (12/9/6) seconds. Cost: 1 sp. Bosses cannot be frozen.

Spinning Ice: Attack all enemies around you for +(2/3/4)[W] damage. Each affected enemy is frozen solid if they fail a Fortitude save (14 + Charisma modifier + 1/2 Bard Level + Stunning modifiers) for a number of seconds equal to your half your Bard level. Bosses cannot be frozen. Increased ranks increases how much Bard levels contribute. Activation cost: 6/4/2 SP. Cooldown 45/35/25 seconds.

Shield Champion: While shield is equipped: +2 attack, +2 damage, +5% doublestrike, +1(W), an additional +5% (total 20%) Combat Style bonus to Melee Attack Speed, and shield bash stuns 5% of the time DC (10 + 1/2 Character lvl + strength modifier + stun bonus)

Stunning Shield: While shield equipped, Activate: Melee shield bash with shield for [+1/+2/+3] (W) attack. This attack stuns enemies unless Fortitude save vs DC(10 + highest ability modifier + character level + stunning bonuses). 30 second cooldown.

Shield Charge: While shield equipped, Activate: Rush forward in a line, delivering a shield bash to every creature hit. Each enemy is knocked down for [+2/+4/+6] (W) damage. The knockdown is negated on Fortitude saving throw vs DC(20 + highest ability modifier + class level + bonus to trip attacks).

Flash Bang: Ki Bomb Spell-Like Ability: Throws a fragile eggshell imbued with ninja magic that explodes into light, blinding opponents for 6 seconds on a failed reflex save and momentarily dazing opponents on a failed fortitude save. Both saving throws have DC equal to (10/14/18 + Monk Level + Wisdom Modifier). (Activation Cost: 20 Ki. Cooldown: 30 seconds)

Smite Tainted Creature: Ki Melee Attack: You have the ability to expend Ki to deal devastating blows in melee against tainted creatures. You gain twice your Wisdom modifier to your attack roll and a damage bonus based on your monk level. A tainted target will be locked in a tomb of jade on vorpal attacks (attack roll of 20 followed by critical confirmation) on a failed Will save (DC = 10 + Wisdom modifier + your monk level). Extraplanar Aberrations or Undead must succeed at two consecutive Will saves to avoid their fate. (Activation Cost: 15 Ki. Cooldown: 15 seconds)

Jade Strike: Ki Melee Attack: You perform a melee attack that is anathema to tainted creatures, that increases their physical damage vulnerability by 10% and reduces their fortification by 25%. A successful Will save negates this effect (DC = 10 + Wisdom modifier + your monk level). This ability only functions on aberrations, extraplanar creatures that are not classified as 'Lawful Outsiders', and undead. Creatures that are both extraplanar and either aberrations or undead receive double this effect. On critical hits, a tainted target will be locked in a tomb of jade on a failed Will save (DC = 10 + Wisdom modifier + your monk level). Extraplanar Aberrations or Undead must succeed at two consecutive Will saves to avoid their fate. (Activation Cost: 10 Ki. Cooldown: 15 seconds)

Tomb of Jade: Ki Melee Attack: You perform an attack that encases a tainted target in a tomb of jade on a failed Will save (DC = 10 + Wisdom modifier + your monk level). Extraplanar Aberrations or Undead must succeed at two consecutive Will saves to avoid this fate. (Activation Cost: 25 Ki. Cooldown: 1 minute)

Kukan-Do: Ki Activate: You lock gazes with an enemy, stunning them for a short period of time on a failed Will save (DC 10 + Charisma modifier + Monk level). Any effects that modify your Stunning Blow or Stunning Fist DC's also affect this ability. Sightless creatures are unaffected by this ability. (Activation Cost: 25 Ki. Cooldown: 15 seconds)

Paralyzing Arrows: Arcane Archer Imbue Toggle: You imbue your arrows with paralyzing force. On Hit: Target is paralyzed. (Will DC 18/22/26 negates.) (Activation Cost: 20 SP. Cooldown: 10 seconds)

[redoubt]

Um, you know that something that scales with 200% Melee Power does *double* damage if you have 50?

I did not. I actually had created a new thread on the subject in the general discussion because it was not making sense to me that you continued to hold up "scales with 200% melee power" as a fix. I've since been informed that it is not a cap to useable Melee Power, but rather a multiplier of it.

Well, it scales with 200% Melee Power so it would actually jump to 9 per hit.

I see that now.

Players tend to underestimate the effects of lots of little damage boosts but in total they can be significant. It will also continue to scale as players accumulate Melee Power on new gear.

The damage boost is appropriate for its place in the tree. Venomed Blades is too expensive though, it should be 1/1/1 AP for its effect.

Sev~

Reducing the AP cost will help.

Are there items in game with Melee Power on them?