Rogue - Assassin Changes

[Wizza]

If we build a toon specifically focused on dodge, the best we can hit is about 30%, and that's in lv 20+.

Meanwhile, a level 1 fighter that puts on pants has more than 30% damage mitigation from free PRR.

I wish this was balanced better...

Exactly what I was thinking. The buff to Measure the foe is too short and too temporary to be any meaningful. Rogues need a full-time 40% dodge to even come close to where the other melees are.

[IronClan]

If we build a toon specifically focused on dodge, the best we can hit is about 30%, and that's in lv 20+.

Meanwhile, a level 1 fighter that puts on pants has more than 30% damage mitigation from free PRR.

I wish this was balanced better...

Your rogue that puts on pants has 20% mitigation from free PRR... but also a higher chance to be missed than the guy with higher PRR. and is also probably saving against nearly all elemental damage.

[Severlin]

If we build a toon specifically focused on dodge, the best we can hit is about 30%, and that's in lv 20+.

Meanwhile, a level 1 fighter that puts on pants has more than 30% damage mitigation from free PRR.

I wish this was balanced better...

Rogue's light armor has 10% damage mitigation, and they get Evasion. That fighter just killed their maximum dodge ~5% when wearing those pants. So the fighter loses tons of dodge and Evasion and gains 20% mitigation through PRR.

Sev~

[redoubt]

I'll be sneaking most of the times. It doesn't work while sneaking > my assassin does not care about Faster Movement.

8(

I've not had a rogue with fast movement at the same time, so I've never tested that. Why does it not apply when in sneak?

The wiki page on sneak doesn't even talk about the speed penalty and neither the haste nor fast movement pages say they don't apply when sneaking.

[Severlin]

8(

I've not had a rogue with fast movement at the same time, so I've never tested that. Why does it not apply when in sneak?

The wiki page on sneak doesn't even talk about the speed penalty and neither the haste nor fast movement pages say they don't apply when sneaking.

Fast movement should apply while sneaking.

Sev~

[Wizza]

Rogue's light armor has 10% damage mitigation, and they get Evasion. That fighter just killed their maximum dodge ~5% when wearing those pants. So the fighter loses tons of dodge and Evasion and gains 20% mitigation through PRR.

Sev~

lol please. Evasion. Last time I died from a Spell that could be evaded on my SORCERER it was the 2008.

8(

I've not had a rogue with fast movement at the same time, so I've never tested that. Why does it not apply when in sneak?

The wiki page on sneak doesn't even talk about the speed penalty and neither the haste nor fast movement pages say they don't apply when sneaking.

When I tested some years ago (yes, a long time ago), it was not working while sneaking. No idea if that changed or not.

[redoubt]

Fast movement should apply while sneaking.

Sev~

Thank you for the clarification.

[Wizza]

Fast movement should apply while sneaking.

Sev~

Cool, I'll be sure to check it when Lama hits.

[IronClan]

The buff to Measure the foe is too short and too temporary to be any meaningful. Rogues need a full-time 40% dodge to even come close to where the other melees are.

The buff to measure the foe is indeed too short to care about, 10 seconds? who cares, however 40% dodge on a toon that also gets 25% incorporeal from best ED, and within about 15% of the mitigation from PRR, while also having Evasion, would be straight out OP. I could see making it a little easier to get low 30's.

[Wizza]

The buff to measure the foe is indeed too short to care about, 10 seconds? who cares, however 40% dodge on a toon that also gets 25% incorporeal from best ED, and within about 15% of the mitigation from PRR, while also having Evasion, would be straight out OP. I could see making it a little easier to get low 30's.

I'll settle for ~35% FULL-TIME, with some super short buff to bring it over 40%. Not some 10s buff that requires you to sneak for 5 seconds to even enter the 30s.

[Ovrad]

Rogue's light armor has 10% damage mitigation, and they get Evasion. That fighter just killed their maximum dodge ~5% when wearing those pants. So the fighter loses tons of dodge and Evasion and gains 20% mitigation through PRR.

Sev~

Oh sure light armor/no armor wearer get evasion. But heavy armor wearer get free MRR at the same time as PRR, and there's no roll on MRR.

[IronClan]

lol please. Evasion. Last time I died from a Spell that could be evaded on my SORCERER it was the 2008.

So you don't raid or do anything in Epic I take it?

[IronClan]

Oh sure light armor/no armor wearer get evasion. But heavy armor wearer get free MRR at the same time as PRR, and there's no roll on MRR.

A well made Assassin has a 95% chance to take zero elemental damage. Are you really bringing up MRR?

[Wizza]

So you don't raid or do anything in Epic I take it?

Name me some deadly spell that can be evaded that is actually a thread when we have 50+ Resist and tons of Elemental absorption items. There are many ways to deal with them, they are not a threat.

A well made Assassin has a 95% chance to take zero elemental damage. Are you really bringing up MRR?

In a game where most of the threats come from Melee damage, yes. He should. PRR is king in DDO, noone cares about Evasion.

[bbqzor]

Purposeful.

(in regards to stacks of Killer fading)

I want to, again, point out that this is the wrong intention. Old blitz was a less restrictive mechanic (you had to get kills, but missing a window didnt lose everything), and that was still difficult for many people to use. This is like a punitive version of that, and that was corrected to be less punitive itself. Why cant this be corrected? Maybe lower the DS to 3% per stack (stacks parallel martial past lives, and so it caps at 12% not 20%) but allow it to fade one stack at a time so it can actually be kept up well. As it stands, its hardly worth buying up unless you extensively solo or are lower level. In the upper levels its extremely difficult to maintain given that all players generally have a good supply of "finisher" type damage sources, and the rogue tends to move slower (if/when sneaking) or have to engage smarter (has to attack flanks instead of wading in) limiting access to kill shots. Its just not very playable as you level up to 20 and beyond. Any comments on how this is a good thing, or if you can please reconsider it in light of these concerns? It looks good on paper now, but its pretty rough in practice when measured alongside equally built and capable characters of other classes... its just not a "team friendly" ability. I wish it was, because its great flavor and a good effect. But losing everything at once just isnt practical or fun, and a smaller bonus that was maintainable would be better.

[Wizza]

(in regards to stacks of Killer fading)

I want to, again, point out that this is the wrong intention. Old blitz was a less restrictive mechanic (you had to get kills, but missing a window didnt lose everything), and that was still difficult for many people to use. This is like a punitive version of that, and that was corrected to be less punitive itself. Why cant this be corrected? Maybe lower the DS to 3% per stack (stacks parallel martial past lives, and so it caps at 12% not 20%) but allow it to fade one stack at a time so it can actually be kept up well. As it stands, its hardly worth buying up unless you extensively solo or are lower level. In the upper levels its extremely difficult to maintain given that all players generally have a good supply of "finisher" type damage sources, and the rogue tends to move slower (if/when sneaking) or have to engage smarter (has to attack flanks instead of wading in) limiting access to kill shots. Its just not very playable as you level up to 20 and beyond. Any comments on how this is a good thing, or if you can please reconsider it in light of these concerns? It looks good on paper now, but its pretty rough in practice when measured alongside equally built and capable characters of other classes... its just not a "team friendly" ability. I wish it was, because its great flavor and a good effect. But losing everything at once just isnt practical or fun, and a smaller bonus that was maintainable would be better.

Because reasons. Melee whined way too much for their blitz and 250% damage and how they couldn't live without it but when it comes to Rogues and some Doublestrike bonus on-kill, noone cares and it becomes OP. I think we should nerf Rogues to be honest.

[Thar]

Rogue's light armor has 10% damage mitigation, and they get Evasion. That fighter just killed their maximum dodge ~5% when wearing those pants. So the fighter loses tons of dodge and Evasion and gains 20% mitigation through PRR.

Sev~

AC increase probably negates the dodge change. The prr if they add a shield negates the evasion. I take maybe 50s from spell damage and have close to 200 prr on pally/monk vs using light armor evasion and taking 2x the damage in melee and 90% missing spell damage with evasion.

heavy armor is a win vs light armor and evasion. it's make evasion useless if you can slap on other armor as those amounts are easily healable.

[IronClan]

Name me some deadly spell that can be evaded that is actually a thread when we have 50+ Resist and tons of Elemental absorption items. There are many ways to deal with them, they are not a threat.



In a game where most of the threats come from Melee damage, yes. He should. PRR is king in DDO, noone cares about Evasion.

It's hilarious the amount of Forum DDO going on in this thread. A rogue can get to within 15%-20% of the PRR mitigation of a DPS oriented heavy armored non-S&B toon... while being missed a hell of a lot more often, and having Evasion.

Have you really not been breathed on by Lady Vol or Elemental bursted by the Abbot, breathed on by disciples or T1, given the boom, fought Miior? I've seen plenty of people die to Deathlords in EE Deathwyrms, and Dragon breath in Fire peaks. The Lich Lords in EE GOP didn't get your attention? Hell doesn't even have to be EE GOP lol. No idea what content you play or what difficulty but for 8 or 9 years up to a few months ago Evasion was the single most powerful splash in the game if you weren't a CHA build... Now of course it's useless because we're in Forum DDO land, where anything that isn't the shiniest and newest is rubbish LOL.

The truth is Assassin by virtue of almost being forced to use SD (and thus getting 25% incorp) probably should have less dodge by a considerable amount than T/A and Mechanic. If you want to make a argument that a 16+ level Rogue T/A should be able to get 40% dodge because the only way they can get 25% incorporeal is to be in lousy SD or drop 2 rogue levels and take 6 monk levels for shadow veil; then I will whole heartedly agree with you on that. But that belongs in the T/A thread and not this one. Assassins and 14 or lower Rogue Staff builds are almost guaranteed to have 25% incorp.

[Blackheartox]

It's hilarious the amount of Forum DDO going on in this thread. A rogue can get to within 15%-20% of the PRR mitigation of a DPS oriented heavy armored non-S&B toon... while being missed a hell of a lot more often, and having Evasion.

Have you really not been breathed on by Lady Vol or Elemental bursted by the Abbot, breathed on by disciples or T1, given the boom, fought Miior? I've seen plenty of people die to Deathlords in EE Deathwyrms, and Dragon breath in Fire peaks. The Lich Lords in EE GOP didn't get your attention? Hell doesn't even have to be EE GOP lol. No idea what content you play or what difficulty but for 8 or 9 years up to a few months ago Evasion was the single most powerful splash in the game if you weren't a CHA build... Now of course it's useless because we're in Forum DDO land, where anything that isn't the shiniest and newest is rubbish LOL.

The truth is Assassin by virtue of almost being forced to use SD (and thus getting 25% incorp) probably should have less dodge by a considerable amount than T/A and Mechanic. If you want to make a argument that a 16+ level Rogue T/A should be able to get 40% dodge because the only way they can get 25% incorporeal is to be in lousy SD or drop 2 rogue levels and take 6 monk levels for shadow veil; then I will whole heartedly agree with you on that. But that belongs in the T/A thread and not this one. Assassins and 14 or lower Rogue Staff builds are almost guaranteed to have 25% incorp.

Let me ask you a question to answer for wizza, have you ever played a sorc?

[Blackheartox]

Sev i have a question, can you try to tell me why are you kinda.. Not being genereous to lv 20 capstone for rogue?
Let us compare


This one is from paladin kotc

Champion of Good: You gain +4 Charisma and 10 Melee Power. The bonuses granted by Courage of Heaven are increased by an additional +2. Your attacks now deal 7d6 additional Light damage. Any weapon you wield is considered Good aligned for purposes of bypassing damage reduction.

This one is from barbarian frenz berserker
Storm's Eye: Activation Cost: 100 Hit Points. Cooldown: 3 minutes.Activate: You gain +1 melee damage. This damage bonus gains one stack every six seconds, up to 25 stacks. This ends when you are below 50% health.
Passive:

• +4 Constitution
• +10 Melee Power
• When raging your melee attacks have a 5% chance to deal 400 bludgeoning damage. This damage scales with 100% Melee Power.

Moving on to bard:
Evasive Maneuvers: Evasive Maneuvers: +2 CHA, +2 DEX. While Swashbuckling, you gain the Evasion feat, +1% Doublestrike, 1% Doubleshot, +1 Attack Damage, and the weapon in your main hand gains an additional +1 to its Enhancement bonus.



And this is what you proposed




Deadly Shadow: You gain +2 Dexterity and +2 Intelligence. You gain +4 Sneak Attack dice. You gain +4 to Reflex saving throws.

I kinda dont see a reason to do a pure rogue that is focused on dps and will prolly just do a ranger rogue fighter to maximize my sneak and actually get some survival.
I dont know, just trying to understand why you arent making pure rogues interesting.
Assasinate is not as effective as brute dps is nowadays so going pure is not as effective as a lets say 13 rogue 6 ranger 1 fighter or similiar





Also reflex?
A pure 20 rogue rly needs 4 reflex? What for?




At least either give some on vorpal thing, or some kind speial poison dot or poison burst that is untyped or no fail on reflex 1s.
Whatever, since picking 20 levels of rogue is alrdy a huge hit to selfsufficiency