Rogue - Assassin Changes

[Wizza]

You know Wizza, you're not known as the most positive poster on these boards... but still, you managed to get a dev to answer your direct questions MULTIPLE times in this thread, yet you just keep throwing insults his way.

Do you really think this is the way to get the results you want?

Has this method EVER worked for you, in real life, or on these boards?

I'm quite frank and sincere in all my replies. If I get a replies from a Dev where he states that an ability is good for SOLO play in an MMO, you can bet I'll be snarky. And stating that TWF is off-topic is really..not good, let's put it that way.

And I just want to clarify that I've not insulted Severlin in any way. I'm just direct, sometimes snarky, never insulting anyone. Besides, we are all grown man, I think he can handle some snarkyness He didn't reply to my latest reply, which I was expecting.

In real life I've no problems of game balance and stuff like that

Gotta start somewhere... Need to fix four things... He's fixing one of the four, and has stated he will look at the other 3 things in the future... Is that a positive step or a negative step?

I'd like to see Rogues be master of Dodge... and it looks like we are moving that way...

I stated elsewhere, in the deathwyrm bug fixes thread IIRC, that this approach is wrong. They are fixing only ONE thing at the time which i dislike. I would like to see two of those points fixed in one patch and two in one other. Not one in a month, another the next year, another one in three years.

Edited the OP:

Based on player feedback we moved the sneaking speed into the Assassin tree under Stealthy.

Poisoned Strikes now apply as Assassin's Mark to the target rather than treating them as Poisoned so it will work on all enemies and won't be blocked by enemies immune to poison.

Sev~

Why did you move the sneak speed into the Assassin tree? We need points into TA tree to get Haste boost and that was the best choice. What are we going to get now to get Haste boost? +3 to Quarterstaff to-hit?

It was in no way crippling to assassins to have Sneaking speed there. It was actually good to spend points in something useful instead of dumping them into +3 skills just to get to Haste boost.

We changed the animation. It's now slicing motion that take less than a second instead of the three second point animation. Looks pretty good in combat. We also cut the cooldown to 6 seconds and changed the duration to 15 seconds so an assassin can keep it up on two targets.

Sev~

Can we have a video? No idea what you mean with slicing motion. Good change finally.

[XavierVenSretrojeph]

Okay, so I have played a rogue for as long as I have played DDO, a couple of years maybe. As such I've seen some of the highs and lows of the class and I can say DPS wise, we're definitely on the shabbier side of DPS more so then ever before. I can suggest some things that need to be fixed, but unless asked directly for my input I'm not going to say how they need to be fixed, just why.

Assassinate DC, is a major problem, I've invested a lot of time (and money) into shaping my rogue to get a 74 assassinate DC. Problem, still not high enough of a DC for say, endgame. I won't lie and say that with that DC I don't get a lot of mobs failing and dying to my blades, but I don't see enough of EE higher end mobs failing that save. A big problem with the DC lies in Measure the Foe and the 5 DC that grants you, but too many times you don't get the chance to just stealth and wait 5 seconds before attempting to assassinate a mob. However if you want the best possible chance, you have to wait that 5 seconds, and that just doesn't bode well.

Fortification bypass is something else that is a problem, I run my rogue with at an almost constant 100% fort bypass. Problem? It's not enough. I may run around with an additional 29d6 SA damage, but against anything that I can't break fort on, it's useless, nonexistent dps. This has sadly always been a problem though, as my ability to gain more fortification bypass was covered, mobs gained more and more fortification to the point where unless I'm using assassins trick, and the mob is lucky enough to fail the save, my dps is just lacking in it's own area of expertise. This shouldn't happen.

Stealth has and probably will continue to be a problem for forever. One problem is movement speed while in stealth, too many classes now have the ability to move very fast, so if you're in stealth, you're at the back of any party, far away from the combat that you crave. Another problem is move silently/hide vs the mobs spot/listen. If I try hard enough I can get my hide and move silently skills to 150+, as it is, I run them around 120 each. Yet almost any mob on an epic quest will somehow remember that he dropped something and turn around, and somehow manage to spot the assassin that was just moments away from ending his or her existence. Unless you're running around in a group, stealth is useless as you have a very low probability of actually being able to sneak up on a mob, especially with those archers that will always manage to peg you even out of your render distance, because they saw you from a mile away, almost like you weren't even in stealth. Which of course breaks your stealth and now you have to deal with every mob because you have no chance of getting back into stealth unless you can kill that archer that is shooting you from the clouds, without angering every mob from you to him. Which brings me to my next rant.

UMD is not something to be used for self healing unless in heroics. It's great for utility. But endgame, if you're reverting to scroll healing to heal yourself, you might as well chug CSW pots because your chance of getting off a heal with a scroll when you're just dying for hp, is very minimal, that mob isn't going to say, oh, it looks like you need a heal so I won't interrupt your concentration while you fiddle with that piece of paper there. Scroll healing is not something you do in the middle of combat unless you're actually quite certain you will die. And quite frankly, unless you're using enhancements to increase your scroll healing ability, it's just something you don't do at all, because getting back say, 250 hp with a scroll is nice, but oh, I have to heal 750 hp, so now I have to wait and do that two more times before I'm ready for the next group of mobs.

Either way, I would have a few more points to bring up but I'm sure I'll get ridiculed for what I've already said, and hopefully the things I've said can help someone put some assassins problems more into perspective.

I've put a lot of time and effort into my build, and whatever changes you make to the assassin tree, I am sure I will find a way to make it work, whether for better or worse. I love playing my assassin, though it is a struggle to constantly enjoy game play with all of the problems any assassin will find.

[Rautis]

Assassinate DC, is a major problem, I've invested a lot of time (and money) into shaping my rogue to get a 74 assassinate DC. Problem, still not high enough of a DC for say, endgame. I won't lie and say that with that DC I don't get a lot of mobs failing and dying to my blades, but I don't see enough of EE higher end mobs failing that save. A big problem with the DC lies in Measure the Foe and the 5 DC that grants you, but too many times you don't get the chance to just stealth and wait 5 seconds before attempting to assassinate a mob. However if you want the best possible chance, you have to wait that 5 seconds, and that just doesn't bode well.

Very nice DC. Is it with or without Measure the Foe? The biggest problem for me with it is that it gets removed if you also try to debuff the monster before your attack. For example as a mage the DC can be about equal to assassinate but they can use multiple debuffs to bring mob saves down considerably. As Assassin if you do that you lose 5 DC and get aggro which can make it impossible to stealth for the attack. I usually use Improved Sunder in combination with the -1 fort save poison attack so the rogue doesn't have to wait in stealth before the attack. And as twf that is likely to result in -8 fortitude save which is more than +5 DC from Measure the Foe. I know most rogues don't have improved sunder but up to -20 fortitude save with it and poison combined can really soften those really tough monsters. It does take 30 seconds of fighting to get there though.

Fortification bypass is something else that is a problem, I run my rogue with at an almost constant 100% fort bypass. Problem? It's not enough. I may run around with an additional 29d6 SA damage, but against anything that I can't break fort on, it's useless, nonexistent dps. This has sadly always been a problem though, as my ability to gain more fortification bypass was covered, mobs gained more and more fortification to the point where unless I'm using assassins trick, and the mob is lucky enough to fail the save, my dps is just lacking in it's own area of expertise. This shouldn't happen.

Your fort bypass is also impressive. I haven't experienced similar issues as you have however. I thought monster fortification is 100% at maximum. Are you sure it is not sneak attack immunity you're experiencing? Fortification and sneak attack immunity are two different things. Before you had to be using Shadowdancer or be lucky with Assassin's Trick to be able to remove immunity occasionally. With no DC for assassin's trick it gets alot easier and is also possible in other epic destinies. This is the strongest buff so far in this set of rogue changes.

Stealth has and probably will continue to be a problem for forever. One problem is movement speed while in stealth, too many classes now have the ability to move very fast, so if you're in stealth, you're at the back of any party, far away from the combat that you crave. Another problem is move silently/hide vs the mobs spot/listen. If I try hard enough I can get my hide and move silently skills to 150+, as it is, I run them around 120 each. Yet almost any mob on an epic quest will somehow remember that he dropped something and turn around, and somehow manage to spot the assassin that was just moments away from ending his or her existence. Unless you're running around in a group, stealth is useless as you have a very low probability of actually being able to sneak up on a mob, especially with those archers that will always manage to peg you even out of your render distance, because they saw you from a mile away, almost like you weren't even in stealth. Which of course breaks your stealth and now you have to deal with every mob because you have no chance of getting back into stealth unless you can kill that archer that is shooting you from the clouds, without angering every mob from you to him. Which brings me to my next rant.

Recently I have not even taken these skills on my rogue builds. UMDing an invis scroll is often more reliable for things like disabling traps in places where archers could see me. And I rarely solo with rogues. Only issue besides stealth skill system breaking in epics is that Invisibility, a level 2 spell is so strong in this game. I came to this game from Neverwinter Nights online modules where Priests and Mages remembered to cast their long lasting buffs right after brushing their teeth in the morning. This meant See Invisibility or True Seeing when they reached high enough levels. Afterall, you wouldn't ever become an evil caster of epic level if you were stupid enough to be ambushed by an adventuring party aided by some level 3 or so Wizard. And ofcourse, being the helpful guy you are you carried Invisibility Purge or Faerie Fire with you so those foolish fighter and barbarian minions could have their daily dose of fun crushing adventurer skulls.

[SamaelBael]

Please keep in mind that the uniqueness of SA works within 15 meters.
The focus on melee attacks should be in TA,
ranged focus for mechanic and
assassins should benefit from the SA range the most. Melee and ranged combat should benefit from this tree, within the SA range at least.
Attacks should be possible with ranged and melee weapons.

Since the last enhancement tree overhaul classes became a lot more restricted to specific weapons.
Rogues have all changes to attack/damage modifiers in their core enhancements, which are useless for the other trees. how about changing it similarly to Harper's int mods?

Assassins are not ment to be on a battlefield. Not in the middle of whirling steel and hails of arrows.

They do care about the concealability of their weapons and their intent. Be it poison, a dagger or a pistol.

Give the assassins full access to their abilities and attacks in SA range. SA range is 0-15meters standard, +5 mechanic 1st core, +10 elf cores.

that would not only give them higher survivability (out of cleave range) but would move them closer to the ranger, away from standard fighter/paladin/barbarian.

[Xionanx]

Yes! A bit off topic, but...

I've been asking for an infinite Epic thieves tool, since Update 6 when the old Epic item system still reigned. My suggestion was that the Tools would be Exclusive +6 or +7 enhancement and with a finite number of uses that recharge over time (ala Eternal Wands). That way Thieves tools wouldn't lose their value completely since trappers would need to carry them in quests with a real high number of traps.

But yes, anything to help cut down some of the clutter in inventory for trapping. Whether it's bigger stacks or being able to combine stacks. Or Eternal Tools! Heck, Arcane Archers don't need really to carry arrows anymore nor Arties need to carry bolts and they have Quivers to hold some of their excess ammo.

Also off the subject of the Assassin tree, but still Rogue related, I don't know why there isn't an ability available to Rogues in the Mechanic tree that contains a x% chance of preventing tools from being used (similar to the rod usage via the Past Life: Student of Artifice). This is completely a fluff ability that would cause any true unbalance between Rogues and Artificers.

+2

This is something that comes up time and time again. IMO Thieves Tools should not have usage limits to begin with, that mechanic needed to be dropped about the same time everyone stopped carrying "Healing" kits.

"Enchanted" Thieves tools should start being available at about level 1 with the minimum level needed to use them raised with the total + it gives to DD and Open lock. As the game is now, there I cant think of any reason not to be using +5 tools at level 1 unless you are completely new to the game and cant afford the price of them on the AH. They are super cheap, abundant, and virtually infinite already if you put any thought at all into being a trapper character.

Its about time we got a "New" magic item.. Thieves Tools

[Saekee]

I'm quite frank and sincere in all my replies. If I get a replies from a Dev where he states that an ability is good for SOLO play in an MMO, you can bet I'll be snarky. And stating that TWF is off-topic is really..not good, let's put it that way.

And I just want to clarify that I've not insulted Severlin in any way. I'm just direct, sometimes snarky, never insulting anyone. Besides, we are all grown man, I think he can handle some snarkyness He didn't reply to my latest reply, which I was expecting.

In real life I've no problems of game balance and stuff like that




I stated elsewhere, in the deathwyrm bug fixes thread IIRC, that this approach is wrong. They are fixing only ONE thing at the time which i dislike. I would like to see two of those points fixed in one patch and two in one other. Not one in a month, another the next year, another one in three years.




Why did you move the sneak speed into the Assassin tree? We need points into TA tree to get Haste boost and that was the best choice. What are we going to get now to get Haste boost? +3 to Quarterstaff to-hit?

It was in no way crippling to assassins to have Sneaking speed there. It was actually good to spend points in something useful instead of dumping them into +3 skills just to get to Haste boost.



Can we have a video? No idea what you mean with slicing motion. Good change finally.

Sev mentioned moving haste boost to tier 1 and making it cheaper precisely so that assassins and mechanics can access it more easily. I think he hasn't updated the first post yet to reflect that.
The only other reason for non-staffers to use acrobat tree was for shadow toggle but that is being changed (fixed).

[brzytki]

Sev mentioned moving haste boost to tier 1

Really? It would be awesome but i haven't seen it mentioned anywhere.

Edit: Unless you are talking about his most recent post in acrobat thread, if so it's about new passive movement speed enhancement, not haste boost.

[Wizza]

Sev mentioned moving haste boost to tier 1 and making it cheaper precisely so that assassins and mechanics can access it more easily. I think he hasn't updated the first post yet to reflect that.
The only other reason for non-staffers to use acrobat tree was for shadow toggle but that is being changed (fixed).

I missed it. Can we have a link?

[Saekee]

I missed it. Can we have a link?

It is on page 6 of acro thread in which he states they are adding a speed boost to tier 1 (on iphone so hard to link--sorry). Maybe I misunderstood it though? I had suggested earlier in the thread that haste boost be moved to tier 1 like Kensei since it would make it more accessible to mechs and assassins. And I agree, sans faster sneaking and the corrections to shadow dodge, there is nothing else in that tree of interest to non-staff users.

[Wizza]

It is on page 6 of acro thread in which he states they are adding a speed boost to tier 1 (on iphone so hard to link--sorry). Maybe I misunderstood it though? I had suggested earlier in the thread that haste boost be moved to tier 1 like Kensei since it would make it more accessible to mechs and assassins. And I agree, sans faster sneaking and the corrections to shadow dodge, there is nothing else in that tree of interest to non-staff users.

Speed boost sounds like Speed boost, as in Sprint boost, not haste boost.

[geoffhanna]

We get concerned when players make blanket statements about stealth being "broken" without really outlining what they mean. While we love player feedback and welcome specific suggestions about stealth, I just don't want to set up false expectations about things stealth should allow. We wouldn't want players, as an example, to have the expectation that characters should be opening doors and pulling levers while remaining in stealth. This type of behavior would threaten too many types of content. Without specifics we can do nothing to address people's concerns.

Sev~

This is a fair question. Being one who has played forever, I sometimes forget that information I consider to be universally known really isn't.

Apologies for the delay as well. I wanted to reply right away but was dumbfounded. Not because I couldn't think of anything to say, but because I had too many things to say and no time to work them into coherent thoughts. Now I have the time. On the plus side, this has already given me Monday's blog article

There are style problems with sneak that have always been present:

• Many encounters contain unsneakable monsters. Sometimes it seems like most of them do
• No one will wait for the sneaky guy to catch up
• No one will wait for the sneaky guy to power up anything that requires being in sneak
• So many places where a quest will not advance until you have killed all the monsters
• The fear of “threatening too many types of content” hobbles stealth play. The pendulum is swung too far. Swing it back a little.

There are style problems with sneak that are the result of game changes:

• More stop points added to previously sneakable quests prevent most sneak-only completions
• Dungeon alert

The worst part of these style issues is that they are due to tabletop sneaking rules and precedents. Which normally I am all about. But tabletop stealth is different; it can be applied to specific circumstances. It is not a play style. But in MMO it is.

There are issues with the implementation of Assassinate

• A successful Assassinate should not break one out of sneaking
• Assassination requires sneak but you cannot sneak while already in melee

And there are some specific technical issues with sneak

• The bad guys inerrantly hit you with ranged at the first sign of finding you
• It is supposed to be possible to shake off pursuit if one is able to retain sneak but that does not work *
• Monsters that hear you inerrantly follow your path when sneaking
• Monsters that do not show indicators of being able to see you are still able to hit you with single-target spells. Which breaks sneak and now everyone sees you.

* This does not work for me, ever. I assume it is bugged. But maybe I am just inadequately skilled.

Here is a paragraph from the Shadowfell Conspiracy release notes that describes how the stealth rework is supposed to determine when you are detected:

1. You are invisible but the monster has True Seeing, See Invisibility, tremor-sense, or is within 2 meters and facing you.
2. You are hiding, but the monster’s spot plus all modifiers is sufficient to beat your hiding skill plus all modifiers, or you are within 2 meters and it is facing you.
3. You are hiding AND invisible, but some combination of both 1 and 2 are true.
4. If they are swinging and hitting you but don’t have the icon over their head, they are making blind attacks where they hear you making noise, and you’re making so much running around and getting hit that they can figure out where you are.

Except they do not swing and hit blindly. They go to precisely where you were and always hit you.

Summary

It has never been possible to use sneak effectively in a group
It has rarely been possible to use sneak effectively when soloing

And that is why stealth is broken.

[Chi_Ryu]

Why did you move the sneak speed into the Assassin tree?

I don't know... perhaps because it actually fits thematically (even if it is inconvenient for getting haste boost)?

• A successful Assassinate should not break one out of sneaking
• Assassination requires sneak but you cannot sneak while already in melee

Whilst I broadly agree with most of your points, I have some issue with these.

For #1, a successful assassinate already does not break you out of stealth; although unfortunately the newly aggro'd monsters will spot you in a nanosecond since stealth and searching is still not working very well.

For #2, it is difficult to sneak in combat, but by no means impossible - in fact with some practice I find it reasonably easy to sneak long enough to assassinate something. You need to make sure you do not have the aggro or line of sight of ranged and spellcasting monsters, and you need to ensure you are not surrounded by melee monsters. Choose your target, and then bluff, immediately sneak and hit assassinate (all very quickly in succession) and it will work just fine.

This will fail if you get hit by another monster midway through (so consider your placement in the dungeon and possible cover - e.g. doorways and pillars. Also, aside from the usual incorporeality, blur/displacement, dodge you can hit your uncanny dodge if off timer). Having a summon to get aggro can help too (scrolls are cheap).

I have used this frequently in melee combat, even whilst soloing. It is tricky to get to grips with, and to be fair it is not feasible in all situations (Devil Assault style encounters are just too overwhelming - at least for me), but certainly possible in a lot of situations. In group situations, it's quite simple with reduced threat enhancements/ED/weapons to happily assassinate anything that moves every 15s, including undead when using Assassin's Trick (NOTE: unlikely to work all the time due to the low DC of AT, and the fact that I don't generally have 100% armor piercing).

My Rogue life was the most enjoyable of all I played on my main, FWIW. I would love to play another with some of these proposed changes, even if it won't be "king of DPS."

[Saekee]

Speed boost sounds like Speed boost, as in Sprint boost, not haste boost.

my mistake--I thought he had followed my suggestion . He was referring to the new speed boost as in faster movement for acrobats (he has updated the first post to reflect changes). So at least that will be good for assassins as well and something to take on the way to haste boost--not sure of the AP cost yet.

[redoubt]

Have you run an assassin that's giving up 6 INT and 25% incorporeal to have better melee DPS? If you're going to be in LD you might as well make him a Staff build and add 6 monk (or just reduce your rogue levels to a 5) like everyone else does.

I am disappointed they wont improve Shadowdancer, they said the same thing about Fatesinger when they did the Bard pass and of course it's still not been touched. This is one of those things, if you can't get a Rogue Enhancement/Destiny ability improved RIGHT NOW, a bug or broken feature looked at, or bad mechanic tweaked right now, it's not going to get attention later.

Actually, I was that assassin. Sort of anyway.

Back when Divine Crusader came out I was an INT spec'd assassin with DEX to damage. Makes perfect sense right? I was in Shadow Dancer with all my destinies capped out. I moved into DC to get it filled out as well. What I found when I got there was:
1. My DPS was way better.
2. My healing was way better.
3. My survival was way better.
4. I kept up with the group because I never tried to sneak.
5. I didn't miss assassinate...

I was disappointed to find that a destiny different from the "assassin" destiny was actually better for my character and made grouping more fun. I actually did another iconic reincarnation and did another 20 rogue life in DC on a knife spec.

[redoubt]

I would rather not have threat reduction attached to this because 1)I often use it to help shed aggro 2)I often use intimidate+cleave to obtain aggro. For me aggro management is a balancing act and I don't always want to minimize threat. In fact, as much as I like the idea of Shiv being changed to allow a pure-rogue access to a Bluff attack, I'd almost be willing to trade it for a rogue Intimidate-attack.

I will politely disagree. Here is why:

I'm currently on a Paladin life before going back to rogue. I've found that intimidate is useful on this life. I've also had to purposely leave certain items and weapons in the TR cache because they have threat reduction on them. I think this is appropriate. I think it is good for the game to have to make those sorts of choices.

I've tried to play games where every character can do anything and I rank them behind DDO. I like that some classes/PREs/Destinies are set up in +POS threat, some are -NEG threat and some are neutral. I like the challenge of figuring out how to piece together parts of all those things to create a build that handles agro the way I want it to.

I think that if you want a build that can go back and forth between + and - threat, it should be possible, but also be a challenge.

Lastly, I am of the opinion that assassin should be a -NEG threat PRE. I could see adding the options for +POS threat in the other trees, but I have less experience in those and will let others comment on things like stick builds.

[patang01]

We changed the animation. It's now slicing motion that take less than a second instead of the three second point animation. Looks pretty good in combat. We also cut the cooldown to 6 seconds and changed the duration to 15 seconds so an assassin can keep it up on two targets.

Sev~

That's great and great news about sneaking speed moved to assassin. I might want to use mine when this goes live. Great work.

[redoubt]

Why did you move the sneak speed into the Assassin tree? We need points into TA tree to get Haste boost and that was the best choice. What are we going to get now to get Haste boost? +3 to Quarterstaff to-hit?

It was in no way crippling to assassins to have Sneaking speed there. It was actually good to spend points in something useful instead of dumping them into +3 skills just to get to Haste boost.

Now they need to move sublety into assassin (and replace it in the TA tree with threat gen.)

I would be very happy to keep my assassin completely out of the TA tree.

[Qezuzu]

Have you run an assassin that's giving up 6 INT and 25% incorporeal to have better melee DPS? If you're going to be in LD you might as well make him a Staff build and add 6 monk (or just reduce your rogue levels to a 5) like everyone else does.

I am disappointed they wont improve Shadowdancer, they said the same thing about Fatesinger when they did the Bard pass and of course it's still not been touched. This is one of those things, if you can't get a Rogue Enhancement/Destiny ability improved RIGHT NOW, a bug or broken feature looked at, or bad mechanic tweaked right now, it's not going to get attention later.

I personally only give up +4 INT (you can't take the last two and also have Shadow Manipulation+Shadow Form) which is the difference between still only having eMG or having Dark Diversion/Mythic Muffled Veneer. Even when counting all 3 points in DC, well, it's not something that's going to prevent Assassinate from being effective. It's rather rude to say I'd be better off taking a heavy multi-class than remaining pure just because I want to use a better destiny.

Also you don't give up 25% incorp, you can still get 10% from an item. And Dreadnought/Crusader don't just give better damage, but also better survivability (MiD can be twisted).

I won't say that Shadowdancer doesn't need an overhaul, but it's not something I think needed to be addressed in order to make Assassins better.

Summary

It has never been possible to use sneak effectively in a group
It has rarely been possible to use sneak effectively when soloing

First one is true, but what exactly can be done to make stealth-play (which is inherently slow and calculated) compatible with how most PUGs are going to run (zerg and smash)? Even if you give 100% movement speed during sneak, I'd still only be using sneak as a way to get MtF stacks, not as something that would actually resemble what I would consider stealth-play (minimal kills and never taking aggro).

As for "rarely been possible to use sneak effectively when soloing"; well, I don't want to explicitly say you might be doing it wrong, but...

[Xionanx]

This is a fair question. Being one who has played forever,... SNIP

And that is why stealth is broken.

Exactly what I said, but in a better more coherent thought out fashion. Well done sir!!

I often stare at the screen with incredulity when I see dev's state their lack of knowledge about things that are pretty much universally accepted by "veteran" gamers and people who aren't deluding themselves.

[slarden]

Devs/Players: Take a step back and consider the following:

- Why impede sneaking speed at all?

This is a great point. It would be great if rogues can sneak at full speed. Maybe make it part of all 3 capstones.