A Creature of Light and Darkness: A Rogue Experiment

[BigErkyKid]

Hello forumites,


Let me say in advance that I am a rogue rookie. Yes, I have played some rogues. However, I have never invested much time in trying to craft anything new. This thread is my first try at creating a powerful rogue build. It is for my main (and arguably only) character. With 22 lives on his back, I think he might go for completionist.

So here is the idea (and I will edit the thread as I get feedback). A swashbluckling stalwart stanced rogue build that focuses on sneak attack. The split is 13 rogue, 4 fighter, 3 bard and presumably it would be playing in shadow dancer for ever more sneak attack, with DC as a second best. The split is 3 bard for swashbuckling, 4 fighter for greater stance (to try to go away from a pure glass cannon) and 13 rogue for as much sneak attack damage as possible given the set up.

The expected strengths

- Excellent dodge and reflexes
- Good sneak attack damage
- Good raw damage from swash

The weaknesses

- Lots of commitment to sneak attack, requiring gear and twists to work
- Not great self healing

Key enhancements are:

- Swashbuckling up to +10% dodge from buckler (under 20 APs)
- Stalward defender up to +6COn and +20% HPs (under 30 APs)
- Assassin until killer for double strike (under 30 APs)
- Harper for the rest.

Key feats

This would an INT double strike + sneak attacked build. Hence, it requires shield masteries, single weapon fighting feats and precision. Perfect single weapon fighter to maximize the sneak attack vulnerability on vorpal from shadow dancer.

Gear to max sneak attack

I would like to know if improved deception items stack (apparently they do?). In any case, this build would go with Celestia for blindness procs, epic golden guile, the improved sneak attack drow seal and the drow cape. All of that to try to make sneak attack as powerful as possible.


So, any thoughts?

[Saekee]

What race? Halfling for guile line? Sounds good. Improved deception item and improved deception weapon stack. If you take the tier 5 harper, that should give improved deception on the weapon. I am planning on a stealth build that is a non-assassinating assassin also using tier 5 Harper (see my sig--Twilight Blade).

Your build will have a strong offense, good defense and incorporeal in SD--should be fun. Do you have Rebellion? It has armor piercing and Improved deception as well as its own version of heartseeker. Then you can take the tier 5 harper righteousness.

[BigErkyKid]

What race? Halfling for guile line? Sounds good. Improved deception item and improved deception weapon stack. If you take the tier 5 harper, that should give improved deception on the weapon. I am planning on a stealth build that is a non-assassinating assassin also using tier 5 Harper (see my sig--Twilight Blade).

Your build will have a strong offense, good defense and incorporeal in SD--should be fun. Do you have Rebellion? It has armor piercing and Improved deception as well as its own version of heartseeker. Then you can take the tier 5 harper righteousness.

I was debating between two iconics, the elf (using a LR+1) or the human PDK. I am in the middle of a dwarf TR after having played exclusively iconic for a very long time and I have to say I am hating it. I can mostly solo almost everything, walking through traps like nothing in my high HPs paladin. It feels like a pure time sink, there is literally no challenge in most parts. Besides, I know that it does not matter one bit whether the build works or not, since heroics are just a filler. All in all, a very frustrating experience that makes me wish very strongly I had bought an otto box. I don't have that much time and I don;t want to waste it in tedious questing.

The elf could give the spot on walk for traps and some more intelligence, whereas the human would have more points to spend on harper (perhaps to get that improved deception weapon). So far I am more inclined to get the human version.

I am aware that there are very nice synergies with monk (as in your build), but don't you think it makes it more of a glass cannon?

Oh and by the way, I do have rebellion, but I think that all in all Celestia is probably going to help more with sneak attack with the blidness procs. I am planning on twisting in the monk fort bypass, which together with precision, the shadow dancer fort bypass and the rogue bypass I think should make for a lot of sneak attacks. If the sneak attack vulnerability triggers enough as it is, I would swap to TF weapons.

I don't know though if sneak attack (even after melee power) is going to be awesome enough. Thoughts?

[Saekee]

I was debating between two iconics, the elf (using a LR+1) or the human PDK. I am in the middle of a dwarf TR after having played exclusively iconic for a very long time and I have to say I am hating it. I can mostly solo almost everything, walking through traps like nothing in my high HPs paladin. It feels like a pure time sink, there is literally no challenge in most parts. Besides, I know that it does not matter one bit whether the build works or not, since heroics are just a filler. All in all, a very frustrating experience that makes me wish very strongly I had bought an otto box. I don't have that much time and I don;t want to waste it in tedious questing.

The elf could give the spot on walk for traps and some more intelligence, whereas the human would have more points to spend on harper (perhaps to get that improved deception weapon). So far I am more inclined to get the human version.

I am aware that there are very nice synergies with monk (as in your build), but don't you think it makes it more of a glass cannon?

Oh and by the way, I do have rebellion, but I think that all in all Celestia is probably going to help more with sneak attack with the blidness procs. I am planning on twisting in the monk fort bypass, which together with precision, the shadow dancer fort bypass and the rogue bypass I think should make for a lot of sneak attacks. If the sneak attack vulnerability triggers enough as it is, I would swap to TF weapons.

I don't know though if sneak attack (even after melee power) is going to be awesome enough. Thoughts?

Nokowi's video here shows the extent deception covers things. You won't even need the blindness procs, but they won't hurt. Heck, since you have Rebellion, you can always swap it in if fortification is an issue. (Am jealous, I do not have that blade.)

I am not sure either about sneak attack. I am curious myself, but adding another 70 or 80 damage on sneak attacks (along with the proper gearing to bring them about) should be solid. That is why I thought you might go halfling, since you could adding another 3d6. Do you have an Avithoul Seal? That really covers both sneak attack damage as well as insightful sneak attack and improved deception. You will also get venomed blades from assassin tree which scale 200% with melee power.

The elven spot trap enhancement seems to require both a high active spot as well as search to work (someone had posted this a while ago in a thread, not sure which). So you would need very good gear constantly equipped to make it worthwhile (e.g. like Tharne's Goggles that have both at +15. I do not have those either...)

You will be ap starved so not sure if you will really want the elf tree if it is not giving you anything else. Shadar Kai will give you gloom stalker, which is like deception, and it begins with a rogue level (no bonus feat though). That line will also give more sneak attack die and some other nice buffs. It is just hard to fit all these things in since you will be AP starved.
"While sneaking, your melee weapons gain the ability to envelop their targets in darkness, making them briefly vulnerable to sneak attacks. Your weapons also have a chance to blind their targets for a short time."

Yes, the Twilight Blade will go the old way via avoidance--hi AC, dodge, incorporeality and displacement as well as improved evasion. There is a lot of good gear to cover PRR now and I could always jump into Earth stance or twist some extra, if need be. Stealth is also about avoiding fights, so that is a factor also.

[BigErkyKid]

Nokowi's video here shows the extent deception covers things. You won't even need the blindness procs, but they won't hurt. Heck, since you have Rebellion, you can always swap it in if fortification is an issue. (Am jealous, I do not have that blade.)

I am not sure either about sneak attack. I am curious myself, but adding another 70 or 80 damage on sneak attacks (along with the proper gearing to bring them about) should be solid. That is why I thought you might go halfling, since you could adding another 3d6. Do you have an Avithoul Seal? That really covers both sneak attack damage as well as insightful sneak attack and improved deception. You will also get venomed blades from assassin tree which scale 200% with melee power.

The elven spot trap enhancement seems to require both a high active spot as well as search to work (someone had posted this a while ago in a thread, not sure which). So you would need very good gear constantly equipped to make it worthwhile (e.g. like Tharne's Goggles that have both at +15. I do not have those either...)

You will be ap starved so not sure if you will really want the elf tree if it is not giving you anything else. Shadar Kai will give you gloom stalker, which is like deception, and it begins with a rogue level (no bonus feat though). That line will also give more sneak attack die and some other nice buffs. It is just hard to fit all these things in since you will be AP starved.
"While sneaking, your melee weapons gain the ability to envelop their targets in darkness, making them briefly vulnerable to sneak attacks. Your weapons also have a chance to blind their targets for a short time."

Yes, the Twilight Blade will go the old way via avoidance--hi AC, dodge, incorporeality and displacement as well as improved evasion. There is a lot of good gear to cover PRR now and I could always jump into Earth stance or twist some extra, if need be. Stealth is also about avoiding fights, so that is a factor also.

That's a great guy for rogues, he has plenty of information. I am with you on the sneak attack issue: if I am looking at 60-80 per attack with sneak attack while almost maxed, then it really isn't worth all the effort. Are you sure those are the numbers? Are you aware of any calculations in that regard?

And regarding the topic of avoidance, I actually had a thread on it and Forzah made some code for some testing. Unfortunately it got cluttered with drama. The take away though was that avoidance is really bad if you are to fight several mobs compared to more heavy PRR options. Of course it all comes down to play style.

The whole point of this build I am presenting is to free up AP from knife specialization via bard AND at the same time allowing you to heavily boost your defense the traditional way, with stalward. The only reason why you would want to do that is because sneak attack is great and worth losing bard. If sneak attack is not really good, then the build is trash.

[Mercureal]

Sneak Attack is good, but good is all relative:

- by taking only 13 levels in Rogue you lose 7d6 damage (3 from Rogue levels + 4d6 Assassin capstone)
- Swashbuckler means you lose all of the off-hand sneak attack damage, and I doubt the Doublestrike makes up for that

You can still get 7d6 from Rogue levels + 1-4d6 from Assassin Enhancements + 6d6 from ShadowDancer + 8 dmg from SA gear + 5 dmg from insightful SA gear, so:

- 24.5 avg from levels
- 21 avg from ED
- 13 from gear
- 3.5 -14 avg from enhancements (optional)

Assuming you take all 4 of the Assassin Enhancements to get to Killer, you'll be averaging 72 damage of SA per hit, with lucky rolls of close to 100. Multiplied by 34 Melee Power (SWF line + SD destiny), multiplied by Doublestrike percentage. Not an insta-death machine or anything, but not too bad overall.

[Saekee]

The whole point of this build I am presenting is to free up AP from knife specialization via bard AND at the same time allowing you to heavily boost your defense the traditional way, with stalward. The only reason why you would want to do that is because sneak attack is great and worth losing bard. If sneak attack is not really good, then the build is trash.

My understanding is that swashbuckling will limit you to light armor at best. Sure, you can get some PRR from Stalwart, but it is not the heavy armor machine that you might be thinking of.
The advantage of deception gear is that the mob tends to be facing the other way while you are hitting it, especially if you have haste boosts running. It is true, though, that groups are a problem.

Sneak Attack is good, but good is all relative:

- by taking only 13 levels in Rogue you lose 7d6 damage (3 from Rogue levels + 4d6 Assassin capstone)
- Swashbuckler means you lose all of the off-hand sneak attack damage, and I doubt the Doublestrike makes up for that

You can still get 7d6 from Rogue levels + 1-4d6 from Assassin Enhancements + 6d6 from ShadowDancer + 8 dmg from SA gear + 5 dmg from insightful SA gear, so:

- 24.5 avg from levels
- 21 avg from ED
- 13 from gear
- 3.5 -14 avg from enhancements (optional)

Assuming you take all 4 of the Assassin Enhancements to get to Killer, you'll be averaging 72 damage of SA per hit, with lucky rolls of close to 100. Multiplied by 34 Melee Power (SWF line + SD destiny), multiplied by Doublestrike percentage. Not an insta-death machine or anything, but not too bad overall.

Thanks for the breakdown Mercureal. Lol looks like my rough estimate of 70-80 sneak was good!

[BigErkyKid]

Sneak Attack is good, but good is all relative:

- by taking only 13 levels in Rogue you lose 7d6 damage (3 from Rogue levels + 4d6 Assassin capstone)
- Swashbuckler means you lose all of the off-hand sneak attack damage, and I doubt the Doublestrike makes up for that

You can still get 7d6 from Rogue levels + 1-4d6 from Assassin Enhancements + 6d6 from ShadowDancer + 8 dmg from SA gear + 5 dmg from insightful SA gear, so:

- 24.5 avg from levels
- 21 avg from ED
- 13 from gear
- 3.5 -14 avg from enhancements (optional)

Assuming you take all 4 of the Assassin Enhancements to get to Killer, you'll be averaging 72 damage of SA per hit, with lucky rolls of close to 100. Multiplied by 34 Melee Power (SWF line + SD destiny), multiplied by Doublestrike percentage. Not an insta-death machine or anything, but not too bad overall.

Thanks for the comment. That I wanted to ask, does sneak attack proc on cleaves and / or on DBs? Say I hit 80 SA times 34 melee power is 80*1.34 thats 107 per hit. Its alright, but doesn't seem worth the effort compared to say the abilities a higher investment in bard would bring.

IMHO sneak would have to be able to crit. Then we would be talking.

[ValariusK]

Its true that you lose the offhand in a SWF-swash build. But you're also getting the extra 30% attack speed and +10 melee power from SWF, which makes up for a lot of it. You're also not getting the TWF animations while moving, which are pretty annoying. Anyone run an actual DPS test?
Another option might be to splash enough ranger to get Dance of Death (5 or 6 levels). That and exposing strike is a really nice synergy with rogue.

[BigErkyKid]

My understanding is that swashbuckling will limit you to light armor at best. Sure, you can get some PRR from Stalwart, but it is not the heavy armor machine that you might be thinking of.
The advantage of deception gear is that the mob tends to be facing the other way while you are hitting it, especially if you have haste boosts running. It is true, though, that groups are a problem.

On my bard I would get over 100PRR, light armor and legendary shield can really pump it up

But anyway, I am learning a lot from you guys, so thanks on that! As I said this is my first try on a rogue.

[BigErkyKid]

Its true that you lose the offhand in a SWF-swash build. But you're also getting the extra 30% attack speed and +10 melee power from SWF, which makes up for a lot of it. You're also not getting the TWF animations while moving, which are pretty annoying. Anyone run an actual DPS test?
Another option might be to splash enough ranger to get Dance of Death (5 or 6 levels). That and exposing strike is a really nice synergy with rogue.

Well the way I see it, this build would give up a bit of offense in favor of much stronger defense.

But yes, I d be interested in some DPS simulations. Aware of any, anyone?

[unbongwah]

- Swashbuckler means you lose all of the off-hand sneak attack damage, and I doubt the Doublestrike makes up for that

+30% atk speed and +15% doublestrike from Legendary SM is effectively 1.3 * 1.15 = 1.495 hit rate vs 1.8 from GTWF. But GSWF provides +10 Melee Power and +1.5x dmg mod, so I suspect the overall DPS is still pretty good. EDIT: plus Swashie means you're building for crits as well as SAs.

My understanding is that swashbuckling will limit you to light armor at best. Sure, you can get some PRR from Stalwart, but it is not the heavy armor machine that you might be thinking of.

True, but compared to TWF pure rogs, you have +25 PRR from defensive stance and +23 PRR from LSM. Also going S&B opens the Gtr Defensive bonuses, namely +20% HPs. Those are some pretty significant survivability bonuses on a normally squishy class.

OP: I would consider rog 12 / bard 5 / ftr 3 instead: you give up two feats (one rog & one ftr), but gain T4 & 5 Swashie abilities (Low Blow, Thread the Needle, Coup de Grace, Exploit Weakness). APs are tight but doable: e.g., 35 APs into Swashie (T5s), 26 APs into Assassin (max Killer), 13 APs into SD (+20% HPs), with 6 APs left to round things out

[BigErkyKid]

+30% atk speed and +15% doublestrike from Legendary SM is effectively 1.3 * 1.15 = 1.495 hit rate vs 1.8 from GTWF. But GSWF provides +10 Melee Power and +1.5x dmg mod, so I suspect the overall DPS is still pretty good. EDIT: plus Swashie means you're building for crits as well as SAs.

True, but compared to TWF pure rogs, you have +25 PRR from defensive stance and +23 PRR from LSM. Also going S&B opens the Gtr Defensive bonuses, namely +20% HPs. Those are some pretty significant survivability bonuses on a normally squishy class.

OP: I would consider rog 12 / bard 5 / ftr 3 instead: you give up two feats (one rog & one ftr), but gain T4 & 5 Swashie abilities (Low Blow, Thread the Needle, Coup de Grace, Exploit Weakness). APs are tight but doable: e.g., 35 APs into Swashie (T5s), 26 APs into Assassin (Killer), 13 APs into SD (+20% HPs), with 6 APs left to round things out

I was aiming for harper improved deception in the weapon to free it from equipment.

The issue with what you suggest, which I agree is strong, is that it would play like a bard with a tad too many rogue levels.

I wanted to see if it was possible to use rogue DPS abilities in a defensive platform with this build.

Perhaps that's not that possible after all.

[ValariusK]

Has anyone tested crippling strike in epics lately---the blanket near immunity to stat damage epic mobs get has been substantially reduced in the latest patches/hotfixes. Is it a viable way to getting helplessness in epics now?

I'm asking because I'm contemplating my rogue life now (finishing my druid life up presently).
One of the builds I'm considering is a rogue-13 (opportunist + crippling)/ ranger-6 (dance of death + exposing strike)/fighter-1 (cheap haste, a feat and where else to put that level, plus it lets me be PDK to start at 15th). It'd be an INT based build since I have harper. I ran the numbers and the amount of skill points for an 18 base +5 tome all level ups to int mostly rogue is nuts, even having to make 1st level a fighter doesn't hurt much.

[Bolo_Grubb]

Interesting concept, good luck with it.

Enhancement point spend will likely be the hardest thing to balance out.

[BigErkyKid]

Has anyone tested crippling strike in epics lately---the blanket near immunity to stat damage epic mobs get has been substantially reduced in the latest patches/hotfixes. Is it a viable way to getting helplessness in epics now?

I'm asking because I'm contemplating my rogue life now (finishing my druid life up presently).
One of the builds I'm considering is a rogue-13 (opportunist + crippling)/ ranger-6 (dance of death + exposing strike)/fighter-1 (cheap haste, a feat and where else to put that level, plus it lets me be PDK to start at 15th). It'd be an INT based build since I have harper. I ran the numbers and the amount of skill points for an 18 base +5 tome all level ups to int mostly rogue is nuts, even having to make 1st level a fighter doesn't hurt much.

If you go along those lines I would do a dual warhammer rogue in LD. But then again, is the sneak attack better than simply going ranger and just add the rogue as an afterthought?

Assasinate is nice, but not really an ability that justifies a build in itself, IMHO. If you want to assassinate use a bard. The only plus a rogue has going for it right, the way I see it, is sneak attack. But it does not seem such big of a deal.

[ValariusK]

If you go along those lines I would do a dual warhammer rogue in LD. But then again, is the sneak attack better than simply going ranger and just add the rogue as an afterthought?

Assasinate is nice, but not really an ability that justifies a build in itself, IMHO. If you want to assassinate use a bard. The only plus a rogue has going for it right, the way I see it, is sneak attack. But it does not seem such big of a deal.

Yeah if I did that build, I'd have most of my points in Tempest and Harper. The 13 rogue would be for crippling + opportunist. The rogue is just what needs the past life. Probably would do LD on it.

[Saekee]

Has anyone tested crippling strike in epics lately---the blanket near immunity to stat damage epic mobs get has been substantially reduced in the latest patches/hotfixes. Is it a viable way to getting helplessness in epics now?

I'm asking because I'm contemplating my rogue life now (finishing my druid life up presently).
One of the builds I'm considering is a rogue-13 (opportunist + crippling)/ ranger-6 (dance of death + exposing strike)/fighter-1 (cheap haste, a feat and where else to put that level, plus it lets me be PDK to start at 15th). It'd be an INT based build since I have harper. I ran the numbers and the amount of skill points for an 18 base +5 tome all level ups to int mostly rogue is nuts, even having to make 1st level a fighter doesn't hurt much.

You want CON drain: https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...ain-epic-melee

If you go along those lines I would do a dual warhammer rogue in LD. But then again, is the sneak attack better than simply going ranger and just add the rogue as an afterthought?

Assasinate is nice, but not really an ability that justifies a build in itself, IMHO. If you want to assassinate use a bard. The only plus a rogue has going for it right, the way I see it, is sneak attack. But it does not seem such big of a deal.

On the other hand, the sacrificial dagger is worth considering. You can get neg levels on crits as well as CON damage if you have the CON poison version.

Yes, in the end, assassins are limited to very specific builds with little variation. Basically they are pure with max INT for assassinate (often Drow for this reason) and using Harper's Know the Angles for INT damage boosts. They are trapped in Shadowdancer since it offers INT as well as buffs to all their abilities. That is why I am avoiding them and also designing alternatives. There are too many mobs that one cannot assassinate.
Note, though, that an INT based character with rogue levels can do some CC if he or she takes the improved traps enhancement from the mechanic tree. this lets your disable device skill work as your traps DC, meaning that a web trap can ensnare EE mobs (see nokowi's vids on this too!).

[BigErkyKid]

Yes, in the end, assassins are limited to very specific builds with little variation. Basically they are pure with max INT for assassinate (often Drow for this reason) and using Harper's Know the Angles for INT damage boosts. They are trapped in Shadowdancer since it offers INT as well as buffs to all their abilities. That is why I am avoiding them and also designing alternatives. There are too many mobs that one cannot assassinate.
.

The question is though what does the rogue (in terms of combat and besides assassinate) bring to the table? Acrobat used to be the swashbuckler of rogue. Some flavor but powerful warrior that is rogue but could be something else. But given that acrobat is quite behind right now, I only see sneak attack (yes, I know I say that a lot :P ).

For me, building a real rogue would require maximizing this unique ability. Perhaps you are right that a monk / rogue is the way to go to max sneak attack, but then it does seem to suffer quite a bit from other weaknesses and I don;t know if the DPS is that great anyway.

Quick question, does the sneak attack from ninja (or the other non ki abilities) depend on being centered? Because otherwise one could try a hammer yielding rogue / monk / paladin in heavy armor. It would give you a lot of sneak attack, defense and healing amp from low hanging shintao... I don't know, seems suboptimal compared to the swash version, but with balanced attacks maybe it could be something.

Otherwise another synergy could be druid wolf for attack speed and sneak attack, again with balanced attacks. However we know that animal druids druids are horrible broken.

I am a bit stuck :P

PS - Something a bit odd, a note to myself, but perhaps a dwarf CON based and then rogue / wolf.

[unbongwah]

The main problem with sneak atk DPS is it doesn't scale well in epics because it doesn't benefit from all the lovely crit bonuses in EDs. [Same problem with glancing blows.] So you can build sneak atks as a supplement to your DPS, but you shouldn't plan on supplanting your regular (crit-based) DPS by relying on SAs, IMHO.

The reason I proposed a 12/5/3 split is I think T5 Swashie abilities complement your build concept better than the other T5s. In particular, I consider T5 Harper pretty weaksauce and there are enough options for Imp Deception that I don't consider it a major incentive for Harper.