Stealth needs to be fixed

[Dazednconfused]

I've played a lot of games, I always play rogues, in this game, stealth does not work. I'm not asking for the standard easy Mode on stealth. The standard is you dump a few points there, and you can stealth past anything. This system is broken. I'm at 28th level, I put on my ring of shadow I have over 80 hide in shadows and move silent, and an invis on top of that. That will get me thru an open zone, if I walk to close to something, I still get detected, and in a dungeon, even if I do make it past all the mobs, I have to kill them anyways to open some random gate. That makes stealth functionally useless. The whole point of stealth is to sneak your way thru the dungeon and kill the boss. Its not like I can't mow everything down, I don't want to. That's messy, I'm a rogue, I don't want to leave evidence behind, you know, like a hundred dead bodies. I guess the easiest solution would be a smoke bomb, a trap we can make to drop aggro, and move into stealth, and on a fast timer. That way we can open said gate, and then drop back into stealth without having to kill everything, shadowdancer has something like that on a 1 minute timer, that's not fast enough, and it takes a twist or a weak epic class. I have way better things to spend my fate points on. Lets be real, I have to kill everything cause stealth doesn't work, no way I'm giving up my cocoon for a t-2 twist on a one minute timer to drop into stealth and shed agro, only to be discovered seconds later. That would be suicide.

[Qhualor]

I actually agree. stealth just doesn't work properly. I see no reason why a rogue cant still be stealthy and quiet opening doors while still trying to be careful not to be detected. I remember on my ranger when I could go into sneak mode and stand behind mobs without being detected. now, with so many barriers required to progress, mobs strategically placed in front of doors and changes to mobs listen skill to slow zergers and invis zergers down it has created a negative impact on players trying to play sneaky characters.

[Annyee]

Yes Yes Yes. Stealth is borked so bad it's un-usable. Sneak detection is borked. Door/lever pulling is borked. Deception is Borked. Assassinate is borked. Improved Feint is Borked. There is so much broken/poor game mechanics that I will not even play a rouge until its fixed.

[Saekee]

Not sure I agree. See guide in my sig.

Yes some things should be possible like opening levers etc but there are sometimes ways around it

[Dazednconfused]

Glad to see some consensus. I was afraid I would get the feedback of how great the shadowdancer class was, I don't know cause that hasn't been a goal of mine yet. The class epic gives no hp or mana or ac, does anything else matter? When it comes to my epic class, that is the primary concern, survivability. As far as I can tell, divine crusader and unyielding sentinel blow every epic away. I don't want them gimped, I want other epics to compete. I don't like that whole shroud attack thing on shadowdancer, I don't like those special attack counters, cause they are clumsy, I have to hit something for them to work, and mobs are always running around, and if its a boss, its gonna take a bit of time to kill. Add in those long timers, its not that great a class. Give me some hp, and some mana, run the specials on mana, make the lvl ability stances, instead of 3 minute timers. I should have full movement on stealth all the time. Give me the smoke bomb I asked for at lvl 6 with my trap skill, the rogue becomes much more viable. (should also put spot on int/wis, the better of the two skill category, same with listen.) Could also consider opening doors not breaking stealth/invis. Also get rid of those doors that require killing all the mobs to open.

[Dazednconfused]

Not sure I agree. See guide in my sig.

Yes some things should be possible like opening levers etc but there are sometimes ways around it

Great promo for your website, but why? Its so much less work to kill everything. That's the problem, its just not worth the effort to stealth everything, and its a lot more risky.

[HastyPudding]

I think a 'move silently' check would be nice when opening chests, pulling levers, and opening doors while in sneak mode. That way, you can still do such things and remain in hiding, but only if you pass the check.

My main problem with stealth is with assassinating. I understand that killing something will most likely alert everything around them, but it shouldn't automatically aggro everything in sight, which it seems to do. You assassinate one or two mobs and then your sneak attack bonuses go out the window unless you're in a party. Even while in a party, assassins can't scout ahead anymore, either, because they'll just aggro everything when they attempt to assassinate.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

The only problem I have it with is since the change awhile back (lets pretend we have a current game build that stealth is no tbugged in....)

that things "see" you way easier than they did before. In fact, it is now difficult to "hide" from most monsters even with maxed Hide score. (at level.)

Invisibility does work however.
And if you have buffs like +15 Hide item, and/or Camoflage then you can usually Hide ok.

But even with a high level character doing Stelthy Repo, and going afk in a corner... I get seen...
I used to be able to hide in that same corner on a lvl 3 toon and never get seen.

[Saekee]

Great promo for your website, but why? Its so much less work to kill everything. That's the problem, its just not worth the effort to stealth everything, and its a lot more risky.

Hi Dazed, it is not my site, just helping a little with it. Sometimes it is not less work to kill things--and it is ALWAYS an issue of what is fun for you. If you are like me, the idea of slipping past mobs is inherently fun. Stealth is the surgeon's scalpel, not the bull in the China shop.

I think a 'move silently' check would be nice when opening chests, pulling levers, and opening doors while in sneak mode. That way, you can still do such things and remain in hiding, but only if you pass the check.

My main problem with stealth is with assassinating. I understand that killing something will most likely alert everything around them, but it shouldn't automatically aggro everything in sight, which it seems to do. You assassinate one or two mobs and then your sneak attack bonuses go out the window unless you're in a party. Even while in a party, assassins can't scout ahead anymore, either, because they'll just aggro everything when they attempt to assassinate.

Great suggestion Hasty!

When people discuss stealth, they are often discussing assassins, assassinate and shadowdancer. The stealth build in my sig uses none of those because I agree on their limitations.

I plan to epic reincarnate in a month or so into it and then play it to cap. I hope to report back on it then.

[TeacherSyn]

I disagree; stealth is working as designed. Since the recent updates that modified matters, it's working much better, in fact. It used to be that monsters moved stupidly if you were detected, you couldn't jump at all, and escape by stealth was impossible.

But even a high Hide/Move Silently does not guarantee complete non-detection. It never, ever did. What Hide does do is effectively increase the time it takes for an enemy's Spot bonus to lock on to you. Move Silently does the same but for the enemy's Listen check.

So, as long as you aren't within a body's length for longer than their Spot check can lock on, you're fine. But eventually, the enemy will spot you if you loiter in their line-of-sight for too long.

Of the stealth-enabled classes, the Ranger has the best avoidance with Hide in Plain Sight, which reduces the Spot check bonus more than any other. But they aren't the fastest sneaking class (that goes to the Ninja Spy) so they still have to do what all other classes have to do: time your movements, avoid l-o-s for too long.

Invisibility gives Spot immunity--but only if you stay outside of a body's length from the enemy (and doesn't have See Invisibility/True Seeing). It becomes worthless if closer. And "body length" means the enemy's body. Epic Gianthold giants have incredible Spot and See Invisibility, so strong Hide/Move Silently does quite a lot out there as long as you aren't too close.

Some changes to enemy behavior have changed recently that annoy me: I can't use breakables to lure enemies since around Update 22. In fact, it's almost as if enemies have gone deaf to anything you do except walking.

DDO isn't "Splinter Cell" or "Thief." You have to keep your distance, keep moving, stay out of the line-of-sight, and move faster for best stealth work. As I said, the Ninja Spy, having Monk speed, invisibility at will, several stealth escape options, and Faster Sneaking, is the best overall stealth master, while Rangers can get stupidly high H/MS (I can reach 110 in some instances) and be a great scout. Bards do OK, and Rogues can really do well with their usual tinkering of skills and UMD tricks with gear. Movement speed is probably the one thing I would improve for some classes who sneak. I would add 5% faster movement speed while in stealth for every 10 points of Move Silently.

If stealth were really as borked as proposed, the stealth guide below would be a bunch of hooey. And I've made many videos that show that technique is most important. Stealth is not a "Points-to-Win" thing and never has been.

[TeacherSyn]

I think a 'move silently' check would be nice when opening chests, pulling levers, and opening doors while in sneak mode. That way, you can still do such things and remain in hiding, but only if you pass the check.

My main problem with stealth is with assassinating. I understand that killing something will most likely alert everything around them, but it shouldn't automatically aggro everything in sight, which it seems to do. You assassinate one or two mobs and then your sneak attack bonuses go out the window unless you're in a party. Even while in a party, assassins can't scout ahead anymore, either, because they'll just aggro everything when they attempt to assassinate.

The way I've seen it in quests, Assassinate simply amplifies enemy Spot/Listen checks for a moment but doesn't automatically cause aggro unless they see you outright because of that temp amplification. So if you nail something while relatively close to others, enemies will kinda see you. It's more realistic. But if you can kill an enemy while at a modest distance from others, you won't get that attention.

Nice idea on that MS check; it would be really nice to have to open doors and levers.

[HastyPudding]

The way I've seen it in quests, Assassinate simply amplifies enemy Spot/Listen checks for a moment but doesn't automatically cause aggro unless they see you outright because of that temp amplification. So if you nail something while relatively close to others, enemies will kinda see you. It's more realistic. But if you can kill an enemy while at a modest distance from others, you won't get that attention.

Nice idea on that MS check; it would be really nice to have to open doors and levers.

My issue with not being able to open levers or chests and such is that, as an assassin, exiting stealth mode can be harmful (since you lose your assassinate DC bonus stacks). It's pretty annoying when playing with other party members that don't open doors for monks (the annoying thing of losing a ki combo via doing anything) and/or rogues.

Thus, I like the idea of a move silently check for interacting with objects. Levers and doors should need a higher check than opening chests and such, since a door opening or some other key point is hard to miss.

[Knightsubzero]

i agree with the original poster, the biggest issue is levers and doors etc breaking your stealth, otherwise i think its mostly alright, it would be nice if the piwafi put you back into full stealth mode when it activated as well (perhaps with a slight penalty for 10 seconds or something)...but basically...the piwafi should have a hide in plain sight effect..

also...what happened to hide in plain sight!

[Saekee]

My issue with not being able to open levers or chests and such is that, as an assassin, exiting stealth mode can be harmful (since you lose your assassinate DC bonus stacks). It's pretty annoying when playing with other party members that don't open doors for monks (the annoying thing of losing a ki combo via doing anything) and/or rogues.

Thus, I like the idea of a move silently check for interacting with objects. Levers and doors should need a higher check than opening chests and such, since a door opening or some other key point is hard to miss.

i agree with the original poster, the biggest issue is levers and doors etc breaking your stealth, otherwise i think its mostly alright, it would be nice if the piwafi put you back into full stealth mode when it activated as well (perhaps with a slight penalty for 10 seconds or something)...but basically...the piwafi should have a hide in plain sight effect..

also...what happened to hide in plain sight!

The shadar-kai invisi core enhancement allows you to briefly interact with objects without breaking invisibility. A similar effect is available on shadowscale armor (min level 26). It think it was quezuzu who mentioned this in my Flaming Sphere scroll thread.

[dunklezhan]

Am I the only person for whom shooting the wall/floor nearby mobs to pull them out has stopped working? Cos that's the most basic "stealth" tactic there is - it worked reliably for all classes without gear or skills or even weapon proficiency. I saw the tip appear on a loading screen the other day which really annoyed me because it hasn't worked for months on any character for me. And yes, I've filed bug reports.

[Dazednconfused]

I disagree; stealth is working as designed. Since the recent updates that modified matters, it's working much better, in fact. It used to be that monsters moved stupidly if you were detected, you couldn't jump at all, and escape by stealth was impossible.

But even a high Hide/Move Silently does not guarantee complete non-detection. It never, ever did. What Hide does do is effectively increase the time it takes for an enemy's Spot bonus to lock on to you. Move Silently does the same but for the enemy's Listen check.

So, as long as you aren't within a body's length for longer than their Spot check can lock on, you're fine. But eventually, the enemy will spot you if you loiter in their line-of-sight for too long.

Of the stealth-enabled classes, the Ranger has the best avoidance with Hide in Plain Sight, which reduces the Spot check bonus more than any other. But they aren't the fastest sneaking class (that goes to the Ninja Spy) so they still have to do what all other classes have to do: time your movements, avoid l-o-s for too long.

Invisibility gives Spot immunity--but only if you stay outside of a body's length from the enemy (and doesn't have See Invisibility/True Seeing). It becomes worthless if closer. And "body length" means the enemy's body. Epic Gianthold giants have incredible Spot and See Invisibility, so strong Hide/Move Silently does quite a lot out there as long as you aren't too close.

Some changes to enemy behavior have changed recently that annoy me: I can't use breakables to lure enemies since around Update 22. In fact, it's almost as if enemies have gone deaf to anything you do except walking.

DDO isn't "Splinter Cell" or "Thief." You have to keep your distance, keep moving, stay out of the line-of-sight, and move faster for best stealth work. As I said, the Ninja Spy, having Monk speed, invisibility at will, several stealth escape options, and Faster Sneaking, is the best overall stealth master, while Rangers can get stupidly high H/MS (I can reach 110 in some instances) and be a great scout. Bards do OK, and Rogues can really do well with their usual tinkering of skills and UMD tricks with gear. Movement speed is probably the one thing I would improve for some classes who sneak. I would add 5% faster movement speed while in stealth for every 10 points of Move Silently.

If stealth were really as borked as proposed, the stealth guide below would be a bunch of hooey. And I've made many videos that show that technique is most important. Stealth is not a "Points-to-Win" thing and never has been.

I agree with you, stealth works exactly as designed, that is the problem. Stealth is not worth the time or investment in character design. If its easier to kill everything, then why stealth? For the challenge? Yeah, except, I have a job, and a life, I want to come home from work, run a few missions, and go to bed. Trying to stealth thru dungeons doesn't further that goal, it takes more time, which is counter-intuitive. Any other game, skip past a bunch of fights, its faster, not here. I'm not asking for stealth to be the "win" button for epic elite, I want it to be a viable strategy for a solo adventurer. If I have 46 skill points into move silent/hide, good gear, and invis, that's a huge investment. Stealth at this moment should be automatic, it should be equal to a wizard casting a nuke at yard trash.

To really gauge the problems with stealth, look at the shadow dancer class. At 5th level we get evasion. Why? If I'm using the epic, either I'm trying to get it out of the way for fate points, or I have evasion. What is the point of making my t-5 ability something I can't use since I'm not in light armor, or something I already have, with the exception of a few wizards, who won't use the class because it doesn't give any mana? Of course, lots of epics are flawed, most of them, however this is really obvious. You want to make shadowdancer a viable epic, then make evasion a t-4 skill we can buy with fate points. At level 5, make a linking ability for improved evasion. As a multiclass, I have 6 enhancement points in tempest for improved evasion, a shadow dancer should have the same option. Our t-5 ability should be a stance with full movement sneak and the ability to open doors without breaking stealth. As i say, i have invis, I don't stealth thru open zones, its to slow. I get detected, thats with a 91 hide, a plus 80 move silent and an invis. And of course, there is no epic level in open zones. Thats why movement rate is so important, and shadow dancer has no skill points devoted to stealth speed. That should be at least a t-2 ability linked to the t-1 ability. Lets go to regular enhancement tree, I have to buy thief acrobat tree for speed, the other trees don't have it.

The point is, there are some very organic solutions to stealth problems in game mechanics. Mostly speed and doors, and ways to drop agro, and these are not gamebreaking, they don't upset the balance. We still have to kill the boss. If we can't do that, then stealth is pointless. The point of stealth is to get to the boss without having to fight everything/anything in between.