Uncentered thrower options

[giftie]

Most of my questions are about the Tinkerhell build. That build sadly hasn't been updated for U23 and Jakeelala hasn't posted in forever. So rather than necroing that thread, I'll ask here.

I've looked at quite a few thrower options, among other Dark Stars (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...Wiz)-Halfling), Critzilla (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...ress-Critzilla) and Tinkerhell (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...ed-Artichucker). Shuricannon and Meteor Shower are great builds, but I'd like to do something less Monk-heavy.

Jakeelala and Tilomere both hints that Critzilla (or any Bard-based thrower) far surpasses the other thrower builds, but I don't understand how this can be the case. Assuming 2.5 shurikens/throw versus one non-shuriken/throw at, say 11-20 x3, you'd need a standing Doubleshot of 100% to break even on base damage, and that's not taking the multiple procs on shurikens into account. While Critzilla is certainly ahead on trash killing thanks to CDG, it seems to do less DPS against bosses and suffers more from high fort.

Could someone explain the math here?

Back to Tinkerhell. IIUC, all Artificer spells are considered infusions, and thus not subject to spell failure. Given the change in OC pre-requisites, Tinkerhell has a few extra feats to play with - such as Heavy Armor (Tinkerhell is already uncentered). Is it accurate that an Artificer casting Tenser's in heavy armor would not be subject to spell failure? And scrolled Displacement would have no spell failure since it lacks somatic component? (Yes, I realize scrolled Displacement would only have a 54 second duration - 60 seconds if Arti 13, but if cast before fights makes GS clickies last a bit longer between shrines.)

Tinkerhell essentially spends 30 AP for 10% Doubleshot (sure Leg Shot and core I are nice enough, but rest are filler points). While I don't really expect anyone but Jakeelala to answer this, I wonder if this wise. For instance, those points could go into Killer and KtA, while picking up more SA. Dropping Rogue T5 means I could just as well go 13 Arti/4 Rogue/3 Monk, pick up level 13 Arti masteries and Align Weapon or Radiant Forcefield and still be ahead on SA dice. Thoughts?

[Saekee]

have you PM'ed Tilomere? He is really knowledgeable on throwers

[giftie]

So you are either unparalleled (level averaged 1-28) because you are instakilling trash, or you are unparalleled because you are using many-unbridled wrath sniper shot on bosses. You don't look at a raw character, and assume it can do only one thing, you look at ED synergy with that character.

I get the instakill part. Personally, I never really managed to apply it with much success before epic levels with Pin/Whistler, and even after that I had trouble getting more than a single kill/CDG despite IPS (don't know if it's still broken with fascinate, but at the time it was). It's a skill issue, and I don't have enough it to warrant a ranged CDG build so I'm just interested in boss DPS at the moment.

Two questions about Fury. Given the much lower ROF outside of MS, do you have problems regenerating enough Adrenaline during prolonged boss fights? And is the extra burst from MS really enough to make up for the lower DPS between them?

At 28, MF rate of fire > all.

Agreed. I'm considering picking Manyshot as one of the "free" feats for my Tinkerhell derivative (albeit with the much lower INT-to-damage from Strategic Combat II), but the doubleshot penalty might be a deal breaker depending on how much doubleshot I end up with. Oh, and arrow logistics without Conjure Arrows. :/

Without any oomph ability like Sniper Shot I'm unlikely to stay in Fury, but could be fun for other EDs.

[elcagador]

Paladin 14/monk 3 for holysword should be now a good option, also with Harper tree, less kiting with Csw, Cmw, loh and cocoon. If not centered could use heavy armor for defenses and arti splash for rune arm, so something like Paladin 15/monk 3/arti 2 should be ok with harper tree, rune arm, a little less doubleshot but better defenses/self heal for not too much kiting.

[giftie]

Paladin 14/monk 3 for holysword should be now a good option, also with Harper tree, less kiting with Csw, Cmw, loh and cocoon. If not centered could use heavy armor for defenses and arti splash for rune arm, so something like Paladin 15/monk 3/arti 2 should be ok with harper tree, rune arm, a little less doubleshot but better defenses/self heal for not too much kiting.

AFAIK, no crit multiplier enhancements on thrown weapons actually work right now (see Critzilla for a list of bugs), so since Halfling already grants +1 range, Holy Sword spell doesn't really add anything. If and when it does, I'll jump on the Warcannon 40k bandwagon.

While Paladin has more than just Holy Sword to offer (Sacred Defence, access to Empower Heal and Divine Grace), I'd rather take what Rogue has to offer, most notably 9-10 DEX and Killer and/or No Mercy. Less than 12 Arti would also mean I'd have to scroll Tenser's, which is doable but sub-optimal.

[elcagador]

AFAIK, no crit multiplier enhancements on thrown weapons actually work right now (see Critzilla for a list of bugs), so since Halfling already grants +1 range, Holy Sword spell doesn't really add anything. If and when it does, I'll jump on the Warcannon 40k bandwagon.

While Paladin has more than just Holy Sword to offer (Sacred Defence, access to Empower Heal and Divine Grace), I'd rather take what Rogue has to offer, most notably 9-10 DEX and Killer and/or No Mercy. Less than 12 Arti would also mean I'd have to scroll Tenser's, which is doable but sub-optimal.

Ah, good to know that. I was thinking on trying a Paladin 15/monk 3/Arti 2 split for some Etrs, using shuriken variant one etr while using swf with rune arm another etr, and s&b another Etr. The thing with the current throwers is that the aoe dps is not even competitive with meele pallys for example, and physical defenses are very lacking (low hitpoints and Prr, just cocoon/heal scrolls for self heals if fleshie (I do not count pots)), while a Paladin can easily get +1,3 k hp, near 200 prr/150 mrr, 400 quickened-empowered heal csw, 300 cmw, 250 cocoon ticks, + lay of hands and possibly consencration)

[giftie]

Ah, good to know that. I was thinking on trying a Paladin 15/monk 3/Arti 2 split for some Etrs, using shuriken variant one etr while using swf with rune arm another etr, and s&b another Etr. The thing with the current throwers is that the aoe dps is not even competitive with meele pallys for example, and physical defenses are very lacking (low hitpoints and Prr, just cocoon/heal scrolls for self heals if fleshie (I do not count pots)), while a Paladin can easily get +1,3 k hp, near 200 prr/150 mrr, 400 quickened-empowered heal csw, 300 cmw, 250 cocoon ticks, + lay of hands and possibly consencration)

I absolutely agree about defenses, which is why I intended to do this in heavy armor despite losing 10k. Following Jakeelala's reasoning, I'm not convinced 10k/doubleshot is even that important (which is why I don't understand why he spent so much AP just for Mechanic T5). It'll break 100 PRR without PLs, but not much more. Self-healing is an issue, but much less so on a ranged build than a melee.

AoE DPS with IPS is as always situational, but I wouldn't say it isn't competitive. Full DPS against lined up targets vs 2 cleaves and glancing blows can be much better damage. (Not counting the Pal 15/Rgr 5 Dance of Death monstrosities.)

If it's for ETRs, 15 Pal/3 Monk/2 Arti sounds like a solid base, but you're probably better off with a repeater than shurikens. Shuriken Expertise and Advanced Ninja Training forces you into a max DEX build, and if you're doing it uncentered you need Halfling. For an ETR build with different weapon setups I'd prefer Human.

[elcagador]

I absolutely agree about defenses, which is why I intended to do this in heavy armor despite losing 10k. Following Jakeelala's reasoning, I'm not convinced 10k/doubleshot is even that important (which is why I don't understand why he spent so much AP just for Mechanic T5). It'll break 100 PRR without PLs, but not much more. Self-healing is an issue, but much less so on a ranged build than a melee.

AoE DPS with IPS is as always situational, but I wouldn't say it isn't competitive. Full DPS against lined up targets vs 2 cleaves and glancing blows can be much better damage. (Not counting the Pal 15/Rgr 5 Dance of Death monstrosities.)

If it's for ETRs, 15 Pal/3 Monk/2 Arti sounds like a solid base, but you're probably better off with a repeater than shurikens. Shuriken Expertise and Advanced Ninja Training forces you into a max DEX build, and if you're doing it uncentered you need Halfling. For an ETR build with different weapon setups I'd prefer Human.

The thing with Aoe Dps is that the Paladin can run forward and hold much more enemies aggro almost without moving, while the thrower have to keep distance running back, jumping and kiting much more, this make a difference on Aoe damage. With mortal fear only available at level 28, the thrower gets a bit more competitive against trash and if hitting multiple enemies with Ips and skills can become competitive but only on some situations (but with more risks due to aggro and defenses ), while the meele Paladin can keep close hitting multiple enemies much easier and in most situations. The only current advantage about throwers is the perma ranged dps for some few situations when ranged dps is more helpful, and the diferent playstyle which can be fun depending on the player.

Yeah, I was thinking to play a Human or Half elf if holysword was working but now seems better to play that race with a repeater if ranged damage, but for now ill probably keep my current main build which is a centered shuriken (I already have an alt capped meele Paladin and dont want to Tr my main into another pally if I don't see a worth diferent style to play).

[Firewall]

The builds you mention were made before the changes to armor, OC, Melee/Ranged Power, Harper Agent and Blitz so they would most likely be built entirely different now.

Most thrower builds run in LD now or in Fury of the wild (if they have elf/ranger Arcane Archer and make use of Furyshot with Arrow of Slaying). So either you go with high number of attacks or you go with massive raw damage and less attacks. In both cases try to max crit range and multiplier. If you want high endgame trash DPS go with max number of attacks for Mortal Fear procs.
Bards also have the nice CDG enhancement for trash killing.
Unfortunately for uncentered builds the crit multiplier from Holy Sword and Swashbuckling is still bugged for throwing weapons. But even uncentered i would go for the highest number of attacks possible if it doesn't affect crits.

Considering the importance of 10k stars i would say it is better than ever, because now it is easier to reach a high WIS since the introduction of Epic Litany and the easy to acquire Ability potions (through Champion drops or daily dice or shop) which they also extended to last 1 hour and stopping in public areas. The crit multiplier from Mountain Stance also works well with throwers.

I have to disagree with elcagador considering AOE DPS. As a thrower you usually start to attack monsters from far away so they approach to attack you in a convenient line which is easy to exploit for IPS AOE damage. If you don't kite in a circle but run straight backwards only, you can easily keep the monsters lined up. For ease of use hard-target a far away spellcaster or archer which does not move and keep the melees between you and the target. With a good build and enough space you can kill most trash mobs before they can even reach you.

[elcagador]

I have to disagree with elcagador considering AOE DPS. As a thrower you usually start to attack monsters from far away so they approach to attack you in a convenient line which is easy to exploit for IPS AOE damage. If you don't kite in a circle but run straight backwards only, you can easily keep the monsters lined up. For ease of use hard-target a far away spellcaster or archer which does not move and keep the melees between you and the target. With a good build and enough space you can kill most trash mobs before they can even reach you.

I respect Firewall opinion, he knows a lot about shurikens, My first shuriken build was based on his shuricannon. I guess in the hands of a very skilled player with very good gear, stats and past lives, can do higher aoe damage overall. But in my experience, I have seen Thf and swf Paladins running ahead, grabbing yellow and even red dungeon alert on EE and destroying waves of enemies while the rest of the group (non Fotm builds) is killing the other half of enemies. Also it depends a lot on the type of quest and the enemies you are fighting, for example my shuriken gets a good number of kills in quests like Line of supplies or breaking the ranks where is easier to line waves of enemies that spawn at one point (although is risky to play very agressive on EE), and even on those quests where Ips have an advantage, I have seen good Paladins doing almost the same number of kills or even more than my shuriken. On other quests like Temple of vol, for example last month I was with a decent tred monkcher shortmanning an EE run, and a Paladin joined when starting and went to the otherside grabbing green and yellow alert (nor even red), he did alone the other side almost in the same time the monkcher and I took our side and he was near the same kill count as we combined. On more general quests with less waves of enemies I think the meeles dps have an advantage, I'm talking more about grouping because I pug more for EE questing, I know that soloing you can take a bit more time to line the enemies for Ips far away, but in grouping the paladin can run ahead without thinking and grab most of the aggro. I know i could play more aggresive In EE but I prefer to not grab too much aggro because of my defenses (I just have 3x colors Epl and my prr while blitzing is only 54-80 with around 970-1050 hp on dreadnought, just cocoon + heal scrolls and few elixir pots for self healing) also I dont like to kite much while grouping because can be a little annoying for others) I also made a little test on EE Tor comparing my Main (shuriken) with my first life paladin ( I just did one EE solo run), my shuriken has mortal fear, while my pally only has tier 2 TF (the rest of the gear is similar but a bit better for my shuriken that has all the items he wants), the time was more or less close (my shuriken won by little but had more risks to die with champs and knock downs) but considering the resources that have my shuriken (displascement clickies, mortal fear, some pots for example) I know the paladin could do it much better.

Also to consider that I havent been at level 28 with mortal fear much time because then I started a few Etrs to get Colors, but from playing at lvls 20-27 I can say that without mortal fear the Pally have an advantage too. I am currently at level 25 on my shuriken and playing little because of connection problems so I can't test much atm, but just giving my experience. (I still like my shuriken, even with the meele power and buff other builds had, also I have spent many time and effort to get my mortal fear shuriken (all my deathwyrm runs were pugged and I had a lot of patience with connection issues while playing that raid on N/H when posted on LFM), so not changing that playstyle in a while. Also not much time to play and TR into other builds atm, thats why I did the pally on an alt.