Rogue tactics

[Halfgiant]

Hi everyone!

Rogues are rare in ddo. Rogues (like me) need to be tactical, as we lack the strength to implement a brute force attack on enemies. The bad thing about most quests is that brute force normally gets the job done (and very quickly), so there is no time for rogues to assess a situation, plan an attack, place a trap, sneak in a room and steal my precious, pull a lever to open a door without waking those nasty constructs up..

So, my question is: what type of rogue (and rogue tactics!!) do you play? How do you read a situation quickly? Do you also prefer to play with other rogues or in a zerg-free environment?

[Saekee]

Hi, consider checking the guide by Spencerian in my signature.

My current rogue is a splash--ERed from a stealthy type to a stun vamp and miss the other incarnation badly.

[Halfgiant]

And good rogues are even more difficult to find!

Is there any rogue guild or alliance? If not, is anyone interested to create a rogue league of shadows? I am def up for it!

[Intensifly]

So, my question is: what type of rogue (and rogue tactics!!) do you play? How do you read a situation quickly? Do you also prefer to play with other rogues or in a zerg-free environment?

I love rogues and have tried probably every combination with assassin possible and I love when assassinate works out. To enjoy that, you need to be in a very patient group or solo (including hirelings commanded to stand back). Never really tried to do it in a group with other assassins, but now that you ask that question, it could be fun to take out several mobs at once with timed assassination from multiple rogues.

[Halfgiant]

Hi, consider checking the guide by Spencerian in my signature.

My current rogue is a splash--ERed from a stealthy type to a stun vamp and miss the other incarnation badly.

Sweet! I'll have a look at it.

[Halfgiant]

I love rogues and have tried probably every combination with assassin possible and I love when assassinate works out. To enjoy that, you need to be in a very patient group or solo (including hirelings commanded to stand back). Never really tried to do it in a group with other assassins, but now that you ask that question, it could be fun to take out several mobs at once with timed assassination from multiple rogues.

Yeah, I think it could be a very good idea if someone is able to find more rogues to play with. I have played both the assassin and the mechanic and both have interesting feats. The 1st problem is that rogues are not very common, and the 2nd one is that groups are normally not very patient.

[TeacherSyn]

Hi everyone!

Rogues are rare in ddo. Rogues (like me) need to be tactical, as we lack the strength to implement a brute force attack on enemies. The bad thing about most quests is that brute force normally gets the job done (and very quickly), so there is no time for rogues to assess a situation, plan an attack, place a trap, sneak in a room and steal my precious, pull a lever to open a door without waking those nasty constructs up..

So, my question is: what type of rogue (and rogue tactics!!) do you play? How do you read a situation quickly? Do you also prefer to play with other rogues or in a zerg-free environment?

I'm loving my Assassin. Here's a blog post on how I killed only the Droaam commander to complete "Diplomatic Impunity," avoiding all other fighting. Stealth plays a significant role, and UMD-based skills to divert attention made it a fun challenge.

Rogues need something to draw attention away from them to make their damage work spectacularly through Sneak Attack or Assassinate if that is your build. A live party helps, but it can be done with hirelings, too.

Here's an earlier post on my Rogue and what I expected to meet. It's all panned out well, so far.

For an Assassin, I love the Harper tree's ability to allow INT for to-hit and for damage, allowing you to pour points only into INT, which also helps your Assassinate DCs.

[Halfgiant]

I love the Harper tree's ability to allow INT for to-hit and for damage, allowing you to pour points only into INT, which also helps your Assassinate DCs.

I have not tried the Harper Agent yet, but I think that if you use a drow and take the nothing is hidden feat, search becomes irrelevant and you can still use your dexterity to increase your AC and hit/damage.

[CThruTheEgo]

my question is: what type of rogue (and rogue tactics!!) do you play? How do you read a situation quickly? Do you also prefer to play with other rogues or in a zerg-free environment?

Here is a quote (slightly modified to be more appropriate for the current thread) from a post I made in another thread describing the playstyle I use with the assassin in my sig while in groups:

In a group you should be assassinating whenever it is off cooldown and dps-ing in between. This requires knowledge and awareness of a number of factors to be able to do effectively and is exactly what makes the playstyle unique and challenging.

Fighting happens in clusters. If you have knowledge of the quest, then you know when and where those fights will happen. The vast majority of groups are going to zerg, so anticipate this and move ahead of them. Leave while the group is finishing off the last mob or two and start heading to the next fight in sneak mode, building up measure the foe as you go. Get to the next encounter, wait for the group while selecting a high fort target to take advantage of the bonus DCs from measure the foe. More than likely the group will have caught up with you right about the time you get there, so choose your target quickly. Move into position, assassinate, then drop out of sneak mode and go attack whatever mob the group is currently beating on. Select your next target while dpsing, a lower fort target since you won't have measure the foe, drop into sneak mode as assassinate goes off timer, get into position, assassinate, then go back to dpsing with the group.

If you fall behind the group, don't stay in sneak. Catch up to them and just don't count on having measure the foe. For a large percentage of content, measure the foe doesn't matter anyway. It's only the highest level content where you really need it and want to take advantage of it. Where it doesn't matter, just zerg right along, dropping into sneak only to keep assassinate on timer.

If you're sitting in sneak mode all the time doing nothing but assassinating, then you're wasting a huge amount of potential dps. You have to be able to switch between assassinate and dps quickly and effectively to utilize the build's full potential.

Getting into position requires knowledge and awareness of mob movement and attack patterns. Archers, for example, stand in one place for a certain period of time, then move a short distance and continue firing. If they are being attacked in melee, they will move back away from their attackers. If they are not being attacked, they will move to the side or forward toward their target. If you're paying attention, you will know how long they've been standing in one spot, how soon they will move, and where they will be headed when they do. All mobs follow some sort of pattern like this. If you know it and are paying attention, then you end up in the right place at the right time and they never see it coming.

You also have to be aware of mob attacks so that they don't knock you out of sneak. Don't cross an archer's line of fire and avoid melees' cleave attacks, for example. Altogether, playing an assassin effectively requires knowledge of game mechanics, quests, and the immediate situation, taking all of that into consideration and then acting accordingly. And it all has to be done quickly if you want to keep up with the group.

It's this very dynamic and skillful playstyle, especially in a group, that makes assassins a unique build to play. Under no circumstances should this be made easier because this is exactly what makes them so much fun to play. If you're good at it, then you're as deadly as any necro caster, as well as many other builds for that matter. No, this playstyle is not newb friendly because it does require a great deal of knowledge to play effectively. No, it is not a playstyle that is widely enjoyed by a large percentage of the playerbase. But it's the only build that plays this way and is greatly appreciated by those of us who do enjoy it. And if it's a playstyle that appeals to you, then you will learn to be good at it.

The stealth playstyle is fun also, but that usually means soloing which I, personally, am not a fan of. A group of stealth players would be a lot of fun, but it's difficult to find others to group with who are interested in this playstyle and willing to work together to make it happen.

[CThruTheEgo]

I have not tried the Harper Agent yet, but I think that if you use a drow and take the nothing is hidden feat, search becomes irrelevant and you can still use your dexterity to increase your AC and hit/damage.

For an assassin you really want to be int based to boost your DCs if you want assassinate to be viable in difficult content. Harper is a game changer for assassins and provides a great deal of synergy.

Also, I could be wrong about this, but I believe nothing is hidden actually uses your search skill, not spot. I know it's been tested before but don't recall the actual results. It was not what you would expect iirc.

[Halfgiant]

BTW, this guide is full of good info and advice.

[TeacherSyn]

Here is a quote (slightly modified to be more appropriate for the current thread) from a post I made in another thread describing the playstyle I use with the assassin in my sig while in groups:



The stealth playstyle is fun also, but that usually means soloing which I, personally, am not a fan of. A group of stealth players would be a lot of fun, but it's difficult to find others to group with who are interested in this playstyle and willing to work together to make it happen.

Good general advice. You can and should mix up stealth, assassinations and beating the snot out of things as an Assassin. So long as you're not the center of attention, the tremendous Sneak Attack DPS can really root out the trash faster than waiting for Assassinate in many instances. I'd advise caution on when to fight, however. When there's a small mob, stay in Sneak, Assassinate, then leave Sneak and pound on a weakened target(s), then return to Sneak to reduce your Threat, then repeat.

Adjust your tactics when fighting Sneak Attack-immune enemies, however.

With Monster Champions about, also adjust tactics to use Assassinate to remove these HP bags quickly to avoid a prolonged fight.

[CThruTheEgo]

Good general advice. You can and should mix up stealth, assassinations and beating the snot out of things as an Assassin. So long as you're not the center of attention, the tremendous Sneak Attack DPS can really root out the trash faster than waiting for Assassinate in many instances. I'd advise caution on when to fight, however. When there's a small mob, stay in Sneak, Assassinate, then leave Sneak and pound on a weakened target(s), then return to Sneak to reduce your Threat, then repeat.

Adjust your tactics when fighting Sneak Attack-immune enemies, however.

With Monster Champions about, also adjust tactics to use Assassinate to remove these HP bags quickly to avoid a prolonged fight.

Yeah I forgot to mention prioritizing assassination targets. Make sure to assassinate full hp targets (i.e. not one that is already being taken down by others), high hp targets (e.g. champions), or high threat targets (e.g. champions, casters, etc.).

[Qezuzu]

The stealth playstyle is fun also, but that usually means soloing which I, personally, am not a fan of. A group of stealth players would be a lot of fun, but it's difficult to find others to group with who are interested in this playstyle and willing to work together to make it happen.

Stealth parties are incredibly fun, but I've only had the pleasure of doing a couple quests in such a manner. You're right about how hard it is to find people who want to do that.

I don't really have anything to contribute that hasn't already been covered, but there is this neat trick.

[kamimitsu]

Yeah I forgot to mention prioritizing assassination targets. Make sure to assassinate full hp targets (i.e. not one that is already being taken down by others), high hp targets (e.g. champions), or high threat targets (e.g. champions, casters, etc.).

Hrmmm.... really?

A Rogue's Guide to Kill Count Padding

<grin>

In seriousness, most of the advice so far is spot on. I'll just add that stealth groups are crazy fun, but take patience, some practice, and communication (oh, and friends who also like stealth missions). Solo stealth is also great; I spent hours and hours in Monastery of the Scorpion perfecting my sneakiness. Back before there was a level cap on entering the quest (and when you still got XP bonus for being under level), I completed Monastery Elite at level 14 with 1 kill (by solving the puzzle). It was a perfect run, and one of my favorite DDO moments.

[CThruTheEgo]

Hrmmm.... really?

A Rogue's Guide to Kill Count Padding

<grin>

Ah yes. No discussion on rogue tactics would be complete without the supreme wisdom of Draccus' guide.

In seriousness, most of the advice so far is spot on. I'll just add that stealth groups are crazy fun, but take patience, some practice, and communication (oh, and friends who also like stealth missions). Solo stealth is also great; I spent hours and hours in Monastery of the Scorpion perfecting my sneakiness. Back before there was a level cap on entering the quest (and when you still got XP bonus for being under level), I completed Monastery Elite at level 14 with 1 kill (by solving the puzzle). It was a perfect run, and one of my favorite DDO moments.

I've never attempted to stealth Monastery. I really should give that a try sometime. A level 14 completion is pretty impressive.

[kamimitsu]

I've never attempted to stealth Monastery. I really should give that a try sometime. A level 14 completion is pretty impressive.

I went back and checked my screenshots... I'm a bit of a liar, apparently. I was level 13, and there were 2 misadventure kills (I looted the secret chest in the puzzle pit and one of the geli cubes ate the other). Link to screenie if anyone cares.

There have been significant changes to aggro and stealth since then, and an Elite Monastery is fine until the last room, which is **** near impossible now. Sannyasi has some kind of 'ping' autodetect when he goes active, and there are tons of scorpions and drow that run all over the puzzle. It can be done, but it is crazy hard. Claw of Vulkoor is probably the best quest for stealth practice now.

[CThruTheEgo]

I went back and checked my screenshots... I'm a bit of a liar, apparently. I was level 13, and there were 2 misadventure kills (I looted the secret chest in the puzzle pit and one of the geli cubes ate the other). Link to screenie if anyone cares.

Nice.

There have been significant changes to aggro and stealth since then, and an Elite Monastery is fine until the last room, which is **** near impossible now. Sannyasi has some kind of 'ping' autodetect when he goes active, and there are tons of scorpions and drow that run all over the puzzle. It can be done, but it is crazy hard. Claw of Vulkoor is probably the best quest for stealth practice now.

Yeah I've mastered Claw, as well as many of the other quests that lend themselves to stealth tactics (Blockade Buster is one of my favorites to do), but never tried Monastary for some reason. Other than the one time completions for access to Dragontouched armor and farming Prey on the Hunter for runes, I just never did much of Reaver's Refuge.

[levy1964]

I went back and checked my screenshots... I'm a bit of a liar, apparently. I was level 13, and there were 2 misadventure kills (I looted the secret chest in the puzzle pit and one of the geli cubes ate the other). Link to screenie if anyone cares.

There have been significant changes to aggro and stealth since then, and an Elite Monastery is fine until the last room, which is **** near impossible now. Sannyasi has some kind of 'ping' autodetect when he goes active, and there are tons of scorpions and drow that run all over the puzzle. It can be done, but it is crazy hard. Claw of Vulkoor is probably the best quest for stealth practice now.

old picture, from 2009 year xD. ur awensome mate solo this on 13 lvl. n1

[Talon_Moonshadow]

Ok, first I have to admit that my Rogue feels super squishy in EE quests.
..and I have partially lost interest in playing her lately.


That said....
Tactics are... run fast. Sneak fast (Faster Sneaking and 30% Striders, and Hast pots). Run Invis maybe.
Open doors from the side, so you do not get seen.

Sneak in the door, take a hard right... swing to the back.

(did I mention you should be in a group?)

Assassinate the caster.
Charge the now agroed on your party's Barbarian archers...
Take them out with SAs (since they are agroed on someone else, you get SA damage.)

Run toward next caster.
Jump, hit sneak in mid air.
Assassinate before you even touch the ground...
Run over to the next archer or caster and sneak attack to death....

Run to the back of the melee mobs that the Barbarian is still working on....

Run, jump, feather fall, double assassinate right in front of the Barb... then leave him to finish the last mob while you re-invis and run off down the hall to the next room....







Although...truthfully, it has been a few mods since I could pull that off...
Kinda why I lost some interest in playing my Rogue.

But man it was fun while it lasted.