Melee druid: what is working with it?

[unbongwah]

I made a druid/Fighter/Ranger, but only the single weapon fighting icon shows up, mind you at this stage, I've never made a dual wielder so I don't know if an icon shows up, but since the Two handed has one...well, will they both work and we just get one icon or is something wrong? I definitely have both swf and twf.

In order to test, make sure you don't have any doublestrike bonuses active (gear etc). When you attack single targets, you should occasionally see two atks proc; that's the TWF feat(s) kicking in. With SWF active (i.e., 1H weapon mainhand, orb or nothing offhand), you should be able to time your attack speed and see it go up vs 2H weapons equipped; that's the atk speed bonus from SWF kicking in. That's also when you should see the SWF icon on your buff bar. IIRC, you shouldn't ever see the TWF icon while in animal form, even with two weapons equipped, because you aren't technically dual-wielding. Welcome to the wonderful world of wolf builds.

[Hackoda]

Planning to take the plunge and TR into wolf druid soon. I think I have got the basic 'principles' (!) of what works.

I understand that ranger / fighter / monk splashes are the most obvious, but I am wondering about a rogue splash as I quite like being able to trap. So...

Unbongwah says that Acrobatic and Haste from TA enhancement trees do work in animal form. Assuming Acrobatic still requires staff equipped?
EDIT: Acrobatic does NOT seem to increase attack speed when wielding quarterstaff in wolf form. Haste boost definitely does work (but of course is also available in tempest).

If staff equipped, know that you still only get basic power attack bonus (5).

Do glancing blows (and upgrades to them) proc in animal form?
Do Quickstrikes work? EDIT: Answer is no. Returns an error message.
Sly Flourish? EDIT: Answer is yes. Procs correctly with increased crit range.

Assume that all the staff bonuses (to hit, dmg) don't work in animal form, and know that the T5 staff specialisation doesn't.
EDIT: Find to hit / damage bonuses difficult to test, as seem to vary quite randomly for no obvious reason.

I'm unlikely to go much into other rogue trees, but just for interest, assume extra sneak die from assassin would work? But probably not venomous blades?
EDIT Confirm that venomous blades will NOT proc in wolf form. However, for the record, Shiv and Bleed Them Out do work.

EDIT / VERDICT: No obvious speed from acrobatic, and no use of quickstrikes, makes this much less attractive as a possibility. The specialist attacks that do work are interesting to note, but don't really contribute to a build plan.

My tests confirm the same thing, also note assassinate does work in wold form. DCs are low, but it's still fun when it does hit

[elvesunited]

I can confirm from my thread that

Vanguard damage does not work in wolf form. ( AC does. Not sure on to hit )
Barbarian and stalwart speed boosts do.
Kensei Unarmed specialization does.
Kensei Weapon Bond does.

[unbongwah]

Kensei Unarmed specialization does.
Kensei Weapon Bond does.

Did you happen to test Strike w/No Thought and/or Keen Edge?

[elvesunited]

Did you happen to test Strike w/No Thought and/or Keen Edge?

I didn't because it involved going 2 levels higher than the character I was trying to validate was planning to go in fighter.
But Skinny, the PDK testing wolf, was level 13 with 4 levels of fighter so what the hey.
Took those last two levels as fighter and gave it a try.

The results unfortunately weren't good.

Critical range before Keen Edge: 18-20 ( Improved Critical Bludgeon was a pre-req )
Critical range after Keen Edge: 18-20

In so far as I can tell the enhancement did nothing.

Didn't have means for to test critical damage on the Training Dummy so I went on a field trip on beat on kobolds

Before Strike with no thought ....

17 31 17 12 24 16 16 25 17 33 31 24 22 31 25

After Strike with no thought ....

18 18 23 15 21 27 25 15 17 22 34 22 14 22 15 17 21 24

All of it within the x3 standard crit range of the 2-13 damage he was doing. My guess is that it did nothing as well.

[unbongwah]

That's what I was afraid of. Guess we'll have to wait for Turbine to decide to do a druid pass before wolf builds are fixed...thanks for testing!

[Whitering]

Do we want melee wolf druids fixed? I do not, yes, some new things might work with it then, but sadly SWF and TWF would no, presumably and we know balance isn't something they are good at.

The only thing for me right now is that my wolf seems a bit squishy, but given the group I was running with yesterday me dying twice to traps, and once when a ton of mobs spawned right on top of me, I guess I am not that squishy since the fighters were constantly dying. Maybe they thought I would heal them. I can res them though.

Of course I am basing this on my only other melee experience, Battle Cleric...who had a really hard time dying.

[elvesunited]

The whole combat skill bonuses you have in human form, you get in wolf form seems intentional. The only bug that I know to be confirmed to be a bug is the Two weapons thing which allows you to get Two weapons benefits even if your human form isn't equipped with two weapons and is using a different fighting style.

And if they were to fix the critical range of wolves. Add say +0.5W for wolves and +1W for bears to each feat pick of Natural Fighting. Fix the insanely long cooldown issue with some Nature Warrior enhancements. Replace some of the more useless enhancements in Nature Warrior. Then you should be able to overcome the loss of being able to combine two weapons off hand attacks with fighting style bonuses that obviously weren't meant to go with it.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

Minor nitpick.



I'm pretty sure it's not that two-weapon fighting is working in animal form, it's that's it's not supposed to work at the same time as single weapon fighting. Having one style or the other would be just fine.

Wolf has only one bite.

SWF has it's own issues IMO, but should not work with an animal IMO.

Bears do have claws and should get the same TWF bonuses that a monk can IMO.
(bear animation needs work IMO btw)

Perhaps Druids need their own feat lines....

[elvesunited]

Wolf has only one bite.

SWF has it's own issues IMO, but should not work with an animal IMO.

Bears do have claws and should get the same TWF bonuses that a monk can IMO.
(bear animation needs work IMO btw)

Perhaps Druids need their own feat lines....

All the effects of the primary weapon and its enhancement value transfer to the bite of the wolf or the paw of the bear. Why not the fighting style bonuses? If a druid is equipped with two weapons, and has the feats then one could surmise that the bear can fight effectively using both paws separately or the wolf gets in extra bites because they have have two weapon fighting on the animal brain. ( To be truly accurate the bonuses and enhancements from the second weapon should be used on the "off-paw" strikes )

IMO the worst thing turbine could do would be to invalidate all fighting styles with the animal form instead of just handling ( and compensating for the loss of as Druids are hardly OP ) the bug where animal forms can take advantage of two weapon feats in animal form when they aren't holding two weapons in humanoid form.

[BigErkyKid]

Hi! Glad to see our resident flavor builder unbongwah kept the thread alive. Thanks man!

I just want to inform you that I plan to write a "review thread" on the current state of animal forms. It will discuss DCs, achievable DPS, and generally how viable are animal forms. I will not discuss exploits (SWF+TWF) since those are going to be fixed soon(TM) by Turb..Standing stone.

I might be a bit rusty on all the possible combinations even though I just played a pure druid to cap. So please do drop by and post your opinion. And if you have something you really want to say but for whatever reason you don't want to post, send me a private message here.

I'll be posting the thread in the druid's sub forum and a link in the general forum for visibility.

Thanks in advance!

[Hackoda]

Found out that you can use the higher level innate abilities/buffs while under barbarian rage. I.e. Tremor, rising fury, and the wolf form equivalent.

[Maelodic]

Does the new empty hand mastery work?

[unbongwah]

Does the new empty hand mastery work?

No idea, though my hunch is no, since none of the other crit bonuses work with wolf form.

Since this thread got bumped, I might as well mention this for posterity's sake: U36 nerfed / bugfixed the various Tempest special attacks (i.e., Growing Storm, Dance of Death, Many/Thousand Cuts) so they only work with dual-wielded weapons. Really dual-wielding, not "oh I'm in animal form but I'm holding two weapons so that makes it okay, right" fighting. This nerfs builds like Togg which used tier-5 Tempest abilities in wolf form.

AFAIK, the TWF and SWF+TWF bugs have not yet been fixed, so there is still some value to splashing rgr 2 to abuse those bugs. For now.

[SeveredSteel]

No idea, though my hunch is no, since none of the other crit bonuses work with wolf form.

Since this thread got bumped, I might as well mention this for posterity's sake: U36 nerfed / bugfixed the various Tempest special attacks (i.e., Growing Storm, Dance of Death, Many/Thousand Cuts) so they only work with dual-wielded weapons. Really dual-wielding, not "oh I'm in animal form but I'm holding two weapons so that makes it okay, right" fighting. This nerfs builds like Togg which used tier-5 Tempest abilities in wolf form.

AFAIK, the TWF and SWF+TWF bugs have not yet been fixed, so there is still some value to splashing rgr 2 to abuse those bugs. For now.

I tested Empty Hand on lama during the monk update and it does not work. However, Violence Begets Violence does work in wolf form.

Anyone wanting to build a wolf should roll an iconic, get to level 12 for tier 5 access, and test with a minimum of 2 druid levels and at least 5 levels of whatever tier 5 they wish to pursue.

[Maelodic]

No idea, though my hunch is no, since none of the other crit bonuses work with wolf form.

Since this thread got bumped, I might as well mention this for posterity's sake: U36 nerfed / bugfixed the various Tempest special attacks (i.e., Growing Storm, Dance of Death, Many/Thousand Cuts) so they only work with dual-wielded weapons. Really dual-wielding, not "oh I'm in animal form but I'm holding two weapons so that makes it okay, right" fighting. This nerfs builds like Togg which used tier-5 Tempest abilities in wolf form.

AFAIK, the TWF and SWF+TWF bugs have not yet been fixed, so there is still some value to splashing rgr 2 to abuse those bugs. For now.

So kensai's t5 and lv6 core both don't work either?

[BigErkyKid]

So kensai's t5 and lv6 core both don't work either?

I'm away at the moment so can't rest, by I might jump into the Druid experiment with you.

Top priorities to test in my opinion:

- crit enhancers:

Barbarian was reported to work
Headmans chop works

- increased +W:

Are those working at all? After my Druid life I got very confused. At one point the extra W of hand wraps worked. Can someone test what is boosting it? It is top priority for a Druid. Another key point is the monk based W.

- Damage +:

For example the half orc ones, power attack, any pre based ones.

If WW works on wolf now, and there is a way to get decent Base damage (good W), it might be viable. Any tests are greatly appreciated and I ll contribute my bit when I get to a computer.

[Maelodic]

I'm away at the moment so can't rest, by I might jump into the Druid experiment with you.

Top priorities to test in my opinion:

- crit enhancers:

Barbarian was reported to work
Headmans chop works

- increased +W:

Are those working at all? After my Druid life I got very confused. At one point the extra W of hand wraps worked. Can someone test what is boosting it? It is top priority for a Druid. Another key point is the monk based W.

- Damage +:

For example the half orc ones, power attack, any pre based ones.

If WW works on wolf now, and there is a way to get decent Base damage (good W), it might be viable. Any tests are greatly appreciated and I ll contribute my bit when I get to a computer.

I was able to test whirlwind and confirm that it's working, behaves like alpha strike in every way. Were you able to test out the +W stuff in epics? I'm still on the cusp of rolling another druid so I am unable to.

I'll test the fighter stuff in a bit. I'm guessing it'll work similar to headsman chop.
If it doesn't Henshin's probably the best cores to get.

[BigErkyKid]

Fighter bonuses for unarmed work, but apparently not the crit amplifiers. I was wondering about half ORc in particular though because it could be a nice dps boost for a class with only 2 trees.

In epics I ended up with the feeling that I was gettin abnormally high base damage given a single W. but it can be tested with some impact W wraps or vorpal I guess. Best option would be someone with a high level trying wraps and weapons but I don't have it at the moment.

Without the W and not relying and exploits it is a no go. But even if those work, without the animal abilities working Druid animal for is just auto attack with heals.

It is sad because dnd and even ddo are full of flavor and many special interesting attacks. However, when it comes to actual gameplay it becomes very much auto attack with rotations.

And as you say, it is not that freaking hard to balance those abilities. They are already freaking coded IG!!

[unbongwah]

So kensai's t5 and lv6 core both don't work either?

AFAIK:

• None of the Competence bonuses to crit range and multiplier work in wolf form. I.e., Keen Edge, Strike w/No Thought, Crit Rage, etc.
• Pulverizer also doesn't work because wolf-form attacks are considered unarmed and Pulverizer only works with blunt weapons.
• All of the "+1x on 19-20 roll" crit bonuses do work: i.e., Overwhelming+Devastating Crit, Headman's Chop (if wielding an axe natch), Fire stance, Focused Wrath, etc.