Melee druid: what is working with it?

[BigErkyKid]

Dear forumites,


First of all, let me clarify that this is not meant to be a thread for complaints or endless discussions of whether something is an exploit or not or whether animal forms need serious rework. I am considering running a wolf build and I was putting together a list of the different abilities that work with it. This is by no means simple as evidenced by the number of posts asking animal form related questions. My intention here is to have a summary thread where we all pitch in and share experiences to clarify what is working ATM. Please feel free to add or debate any of the points I make, I'll try to keep the first post updated with the information contributed.

Combat styles

In general, combat styles are not meant to be working in animal form. However, they do. The worst offender is stacking TWF and SWF via ranger autogrants, which is generally considered an exploit.

Shield masteries: Works.
Does it work with a non-metal orb?No!
Are they exclusive with other fighting styles?No!
Two weapon fighting: Works in animal form; adds off hand attacks. This is not WAI.
Two handed fighting: No idea.
Does it add melee power?
Does it add double STR to damage?
Single weapon fighting: Works in animal form; adds melee power and attack speed.
Does the attack speed buff stack with wolf animal form attack speed? (not the enhancement, the animal form autograft)Yes!

General feats

Natural fighting: Works fine, adds double strike.
Whirlwind attack: No idea.
Does it produce 4 attacks like it does with unarmed monks?
Power attack: Works.
Does it grant the extra damage while in animal form and using THF?No.
Cleaves: Works.
How does it interact with TWF in animal form?No off hand attacks.
Overwhelming critical: Works fine, adds to the critical multiplier
Vorpal strikes: No idea.

Enhancements

Dagger or quarterstaff expertise: No!
Does it add the dagger / qstaff expanded crit thread and multiplier?It does not work, you are considered unarmed.
Keen edge: Bugged.
Does it expand the crit range?It should, it does not.
Vanguard enhancements: No idea.
Can you proc shield bashes in animal form? No!
Can you stun with the shield in animal form? No!
Do damage modifiers apply in animal form?
Do damage modifiers apply in animal form with an orb? No!
Rage related enhancements: No idea.
Do the crit enhancers work?
Do the STAT enhancements work?

Stances

Monk stances: Works
Do orbs / tower shields uncenter you in animal form?Yes, similar to regular monk.
Stalward stances: Works
Swashbuckling: Does not work in animal form
Does it allow to use buckler in off hand if swashbuckling?Yes, with skirmisher.
Bestial stances: Work as intended but are exclusive.
Do animal stances work with the rest of stances?Yes.

Epic enhancements

Celestial champion: Does not work.
Pulverizer: Does not work in animal form.
Momentum swing: Does not work.
Lay waste: Does not work.
Anvil of thunder / lightening mace / anvil of thunder: Yes, provided you use the right weapon.
Devastating critical: Works .
Headman's chop: Works.

Unarmed dice increases

Monk additions, level autografts: If you are using wraps, they work.
Do they work if you are armed and centered?
Improved martial arts: No idea.
Improved power attack: Yes (check!)
Active past live, monk: No idea.
Weapon based dice: For instance, thunder forged weapons have 4W.
Do you keep any weapon based increase in dice or do you still use the 1D12/1D10?
Dance of flowers: No idea.
Does it work both with wraps and weapons as long as you are centered?

[Krelar]

Minor nitpick.

Two weapon fighting: Works in animal form; adds off hand attacks. This is not WAI.

I'm pretty sure it's not that two-weapon fighting is working in animal form, it's that's it's not supposed to work at the same time as single weapon fighting. Having one style or the other would be just fine.

[unbongwah]

Shield masteries: Works.
Does it work with a non-metal orb?

Shield Mastery doublestrike bonuses no longer apply to orbs; this was fixed in U24.

Are they exclusive with other fighting styles?

AFAICT, Shield Mastery will stack with TWF. See below for how to make it stack with SWF as well.

Single weapon fighting: Works in animal form; adds melee power and attack speed.
Does the attack speed buff stack with wolf animal form attack speed?

Yes. Also worth pointing out that you do not get the 1.5x STR dmg mod from GSWF in animal forms.

Power attack: No idea.
Does it grant the extra damage while in animal form and using THF?

I believe you only get the base +5 dmg, not the +10 dmg from 2H weapons.

Cleaves: No idea
How does it interact with TWF in animal form?

I don't think you get offhand procs on Cleaves, so it works the same as regular TWF. Also: regular Cleaves don't get doublestrikes, but Alpha Strikes do.

Dagger or quarterstaff expertise: No idea.
Does it add the dagger / qstaff expanded crit thread and multiplier?

No, because wolf atks are considered unarmed, so the bonus doesn't carry over.

Keen edge: No idea.
Does it expand the crit range?

It's supposed to if you take Martial Arts or Druidic Weapons (both of which cover unarmed), but last time I checked it was bugged and not working.

Vanguard enhancements: No idea.
Can you proc shield bashes in animal form?
Can you stun with the shield in animal form?
Do damage modifiers apply in animal form?
Do damage modifiers apply in animal form with an orb?

No, no, don't know (the icon still shows up while shapeshifted, but I'm not sure you actually get the bonus), and no (Vanguard bonuses don't apply to orbs).

Monk stances: Works
Do orbs / tower shields uncenter you in animal form?

Yes: a Drunken wolf has the same gear restrictions as a regular centered monk build does.

Swashbuckling: Does not work in animal form
Does it allow to use buckler in off hand if swashbuckling?

None of the benefits of Swashbuckling stance apply to wolf form. However, if you take Skirmisher, you can equip a buckler in your offhand and benefit from both SWF and Shield Mastery feats, because this bonus doesn't depend on Swashbuckling being active. For that matter, you are not restricted to light armor. I have theorycrafted bard / druid / rgr builds with SWF, TWF, and Shield Mastery feats; AFAIK, the pieces actually work together, but I've not had a chance to do a real-world test. EDIT: druid gear restrictions still apply, though, so non-metal armor & bucklers only.

Bestial stances: Work as intended but are exclusive.
Do animal stances work with the rest of stances?

Yes. A wolf build can have a Bestial stance, Stalwart defensive stance, a monk stance, and a combat stance (Power Atk / Precision / etc.) active simultaneously. [Technically you can have Archer's Focus or IPS active too, though it does nothing.]

Anvil of thunder / lightening mace / anvil of thunder: No idea.
Do those work in animal form?

Yes, if you have the right weapon equipped. EDIT: and I presume you meant to include Volcano's Edge, not AoT twice.

Improved power attack: No idea

I believe this works.

Weapon based dice: For instance, thunder forged weapons have 4W.
Do you keep any weapon based increase in dice or do you still use the 1D12/1D10?

Weapon-based die increases do not carry over to animal forms, unfortunately. However, Shillelagh will carry over if you have a wooden weapon equipped.

[unbongwah]

I'm pretty sure it's not that two-weapon fighting is working in animal form, it's that's it's not supposed to work at the same time as single weapon fighting.

Cordovan confirmed over a year ago that TWF applying to animal forms was not WAI.

TWF and SWF are mutually exclusive feats, however there's a workaround using a rgr splash; just take SWF before you take rgr 2.

[BigErkyKid]

Weapon-based die increases do not carry over to animal forms, unfortunately. However, Shillelagh will carry over if you have a wooden weapon equipped.

Are you sure of that? It does show in inventory (with wrong dice, of course) and otherwise damage would take a big hit in animal form. My impression is that you do get the additional W.

[unbongwah]

AFAIK, +[W] modifiers from weapons have never applied to animal forms, which has been a perennial complaint about druids; TF weapons w/+4[W] mods just make the omission more egregious. It's a big part of why wolf builders focus on maxing out their atk speed / doublestrike / offhand procs, to make up for the lower base dmg.

[psykopeta]

Cordovan confirmed over a year ago that TWF applying to animal forms was not WAI.

TWF and SWF are mutually exclusive feats, however there's a workaround using a rgr splash; just take SWF before you take rgr 2.

u forgot the funniest part

if u take later 1 fighter lvl u can pick thf

yup, 3 exclusive lines, yup yup

[BigErkyKid]

https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...lf-Form-weapon

I see that some attacks (some cleaves) trigger weird effects regarding bashes and the rest. But how about the standard questions, like weapon +W to animal form W, etc.?

Hard to add what you reference in the way it is written, sorry.

[BigErkyKid]

Alright, so after looking carefully at what we know, I foresee two kinds of high DPS wolf builds: (i) monk-druid-x, (ii) ranger-druid-x.
The monk build benefits from the unarmed speed bonus, stance bonus and unarmed W damage if using wraps. The ranger build uses the combination of TWF and SWF, which will somehow remain an advantage even if it is nerfed since ranger cores add to the natural off hand chance (base 20%). Of course, whether one adds fighter or not to the combination has a big impact in the build.

Let's see some basic computations only for DPS, based only on LD. Please feel free to step in to point out any mistakes.

Monk-druid: wraps builds

Here there are two natural versions, monk 6 (allowing for a third class) or monk 9 (limiting it much).
Monk 6 version
Two weapon fighting line, pTWF (6% DBs), natural fighting x3 (18% DBs), master of forms (+1 crit mult. 19-20), Legendary dreadnaught (devastating critical +1 crit mult. 19-20), dance of flowers (+1.5W), TF wraps (+4W).
Attack speed: 30% animal form, 10% monk
Crit: 17-20x3, 19-20x5.
Damage dice: 4W (wraps)+1.5W(monk)+1.5(dance of flowers)=7d10 (expectation 5.5x7=38.5)
Off hand proc: 100%.
Reminder: Just take DBs as a main hand proc, except for pTWF which is 10% off hand.
Other additions to damage: Let that be labelled D, and the current damage from W computed plus D will be named B.
Main hand:
Based on crit profile
(1/20)*0 + (15/20)*(38.5+D)+(2/20)*(38.5+D)*3+(2/20)*(38.5+D)*5= 1.55*(38.5+D)
Adding attack speed and DBs (1.4 attack speed and 1.24 DBs)
1.55*B*1.4*1.24=2.6908*B
Off hand:
1.55*1.4*1.1*B=2.387
Total per regular attack: 2.6908*B+2.387*B=5.1*B
Number of hits: 2 at 1.4 speed so 2.8.

Monk 9 version
Only difference is +5% speed and +.5W.
Total per regular attack: 2.6908*B+ 2.47225*B=5.26*B

I'll continue with the monk armed in a difference post.

[BigErkyKid]

Monk-druid: weapon builds

Monk 6 seems the natural option. I will also compute the centered kensei wolf with axes option.
Monk 6 version
SWF line (10 melee power), pTWF (6% DBs), natural fighting x3 (18% DBs), master of forms (+1 crit mult. 19-20), Legendary dreadnaught (devastating critical +1 crit mult. 19-20), dance of flowers (+1.5W)
Attack speed: 30% animal form, 10% monk, 30% SWF.
Crit: 17-20x3, 19-20x5.
Damage dice: 1W (weapon) +1.5(dance of flowers)=2.5d10 (expectation 2.5x7=17.5)
Other additions to damage: Let that be labelled D, and the current damage from W computed plus D will be named B.
Off hand: 20% base, 10% shintao
Main hand:
Based on crit profile
Damage = 1.55*(17.5+D)
Adding attack speed and DBs (1.7 attack speed and 1.24 DBs, melee power 1.1)
1.55*1.7*1.24*1.1*B=3.59414*B
Off hand: (.3 expected prob of happening)
1.55*1.7*1.1*0.3*1.1*B=0.956505
Total per regular attack: (3.59414+0.956505)*B=4.550645*B
Number of hits: 1.3 at 1.7 speed= 2.21

Monk centered with axe
Only difference is +1 crit multiplier at 19-20.
1.65*1.7*1.24*1.1*B=3.82602
1.65*1.7*1.1*0.3*1.1=1.018215
Total per regular attack: (3.82602+1.018215)*B=4.844235*B

[BigErkyKid]

Ranger-druid: weapon builds

Ranger 5-6 seems the natural option.
Ranger 6 version without monk
SWF line (10 melee power), pTWF (6% DBs), natural fighting x3 (18% DBs), , Legendary dreadnaught (devastating critical +1 crit mult. 19-20), Headman's chop (+1 crit mult. 19-20)
Attack speed: 30% animal form, 30% SWF.
Crit: 17-20x3, 19-20x5.
Damage dice: 1W (weapon) =1d10 (expectation 1x7=5.5)
Other additions to damage: Let that be labelled D, and the current damage from W computed plus D will be named B.
Off hand: 20% base, 10% ranger core, 20% TWF, 20% iTWF, 20% gTWF, 10% pTWF = 100%
Main hand:
Based on crit profile
Damage = 1.65*(5.5+D)
Adding attack speed and DBs (1.6 attack speed and 1.24 DBs, melee power 1.1)
1.65*1.6*1.24*1.1*B=3.6 *B
Off hand: (.3 expected prob of happening)
1.65*1.6*1.1*1*1.1*B=3.2
Total per regular attack: (3.6+3.2)*B=6.8*B
Number of hits: 2 at 1.6 speed= 3.2

[BigErkyKid]

Ranger-druid no monk SWF
Base: 5.5+D
Multiplier: 6.8

Monk-druid SWF
Base: 17.5+D
Multiplier: 4.84

Monk-druid TWF (9 monk)
Base: 38.5+D
Multiplier: 5.26

Assuming a grand total of 40 MP additional to this and 50 STR (+20 modifier) and +10 deadly, +10 assorted modifiers. I am aware I am computing full STR to damage in TWF, feel free to run the numbers without that.

Ranger-druid no monk SWF
Damage = (1.5*20+10+10+5.5)*6.8*1.4=528.36

Monk-druid SWF
Damage = (1.5*20+10+10+17.5)*4.84*1.4=457.38

Monk-druid TWF (9 monk)
Damage = (1*20+10+10+38.5)*5.26*1.4=578.074

This of course is single target damage and one can expect SWF to be better at crowd damage, which is crucial. In particular, the ranger build would excel at that. In addition, the ranger build will have more defense if it choses a fighter splash and could increase the DPS if it goes monk and centered.

Feel free to tear apart these numbers and provide your own!

[BigErkyKid]

AFAIK, +[W] modifiers from weapons have never applied to animal forms, which has been a perennial complaint about druids; TF weapons w/+4[W] mods just make the omission more egregious. It's a big part of why wolf builders focus on maxing out their atk speed / doublestrike / offhand procs, to make up for the lower base dmg.

OK, reporting on this. Wolf +5 damage from STR:

1. +1 Dagger: min 7, max 16.
2. Unarmed: min 6, max 15
3. +3 Vorpal sword (2D8, PDK starting sword): min 9, max 18.

So indeed, the +W of the weapon do NOT carry to wolf damage dice.

[Varrek]

Does anyone know if the burst effects on ToD rings work while shapeshifted?
Do you have to have monk levels?
Do you need handwraps equipped or any weapon?

Thanks in advance.

[BigErkyKid]

Does anyone know if the burst effects on ToD rings work while shapeshifted?
Do you have to have monk levels?
Do you need handwraps equipped or any weapon?

Thanks in advance.

I don't know, but giving it a bump to see if someone can answer. I feel its way better to centralize these sort of questions that keep spamming threads that become outdated.

[Munkenmo]

Epic enhancements

Lay waste: Does not work.

Lay Waste does work unarmed and in animal forms (regardless of what weapons the animal has equipped.)

The only problem is that the cool down of Lay waste can be reset by Momentum Swing which does not work in animal forms. But factually speaking Lay waste is working perfectly for animals, woads and unarmed monks.

[Varrek]

So I finally hit level 18 and was able to try out the burst rings and found out they do indeed work.

I had no monk levels and was using a light pick that I equipped because it didn't have a prefix. The shocking burst effect on Oremi's ring worked in winter wolf form and so did the Oremi set bonus when I equipped the necklace.

[Nephylim3]

As my cousin asked me last night and I have no real answer for him, does Dance of Death work with wolf form? I made a quick PDK 1 fighter / 2 druid / 12 ranger mockup, but each time I was firing DoD it didnt seem like it was hitting any other mobs in a big group around me. Maybe the radius is incredibly small or I was missing something.

I presume that it's not SUPPOSED to work, but I generally have no idea one way or the other.

[unbongwah]

As my cousin asked me last night and I have no real answer for him, does Dance of Death work with wolf form?

Last time I checked, Dance of Death and Thousand Cuts worked with any fighting style, not just TWF, inc. animal forms. I don't have a rgr / druid I can use to test that currently, though.

[ValariusK]

Last time I checked, Dance of Death and Thousand Cuts worked with any fighting style, not just TWF, inc. animal forms. I don't have a rgr / druid I can use to test that currently, though.

Dance of death works with wolf. I have it. When it's working it is a wonder to behold. It's a bit wonky though. I THINK that it only works when you have nothing explicitly targeted. That may be working as intended, so you can still be selective while you're attacking for quests like 'Sleeping Dust'.

Anyone have a more definitive test?