reduce the level gap of some chains

[Suzaku]

Perhaps Turbine should redesign some of the level gaps in quest chains like Tangleroot and Sorrowdusk. In tangleroot it's level 3 through 7, and in Sorrowdusk it's 6 through 10. While level gaps can be find at the end of the quest but why does it have to be 4 level?

[TrinityTurtle]

Personally, I find the design fine the way it is, there is an encouragement to dip in and out of the chain, instead of doing the entire repetitive chains all at once.

[FranOhmsford]

Perhaps Turbine should redesign some of the level gaps in quest chains like Tangleroot and Sorrowdusk. In tangleroot it's level 3 through 7, and in Sorrowdusk it's 6 through 10. While level gaps can be find at the end of the quest but why does it have to be 4 level?

Tangleroot and Sorrowdusk would be so simple to fix {And yes we KNOW the Devs can change Quest Levels - They did it with Cabal when they moved that quest up from 13-14!}.

Tangleroot

Upgrade First Strike and The Hobgoblins' Captives to Base Lvl 4.
Downgrade The Way to Yarkuch and Yarkuch's Last Stand to Base Lvl 6.

Sorrowdusk

Upgrade The Iron Mines: Freeing Achka and Justice For Grust to Base Lvl 7.
Downgrade Quench the Flames and Church of the Fury to Base Lvl 9


Other Chains that could do with slight changes:

Catacombs

Downgrade Endgame: The Archbishop's Fate to Base Lvl 3 {Same as the rest of the Chain!}

Shan to Kor

Upgrade The Sacred Helm and The Cloven Jaw Scourge: Blockade to Base Lvl 4.

Delera's

Upgrade Mystery of Delera's Tomb to Base Lvl 6.

Threnal

Upgrade In Need of Supplies and The Rescue to Base Lvl 9
Downgrade Secure the Area, Escort the Expedition, In Need of Reinforcements and The Gate Chamber to Base Lvl 9.
ADD the Giant Caves to the Compendium at Base Lvl 9!

Sands

Upgrade Chamber of Rahmat to Base Lvl 11.
Upgrade Offering of Blood to Base Lvl 12.

[RD2play]

Tangleroot and Sorrowdusk would be so simple to fix {And yes we KNOW the Devs can change Quest Levels - They did it with Cabal when they moved that quest up from 13-14!}.

Tangleroot

Upgrade First Strike and The Hobgoblins' Captives to Base Lvl 4.
Downgrade The Way to Yarkuch and Yarkuch's Last Stand to Base Lvl 6.

Sorrowdusk

Upgrade The Iron Mines: Freeing Achka and Justice For Grust to Base Lvl 7.
Downgrade Quench the Flames and Church of the Fury to Base Lvl 9


Other Chains that could do with slight changes:

Catacombs

Downgrade Endgame: The Archbishop's Fate to Base Lvl 3 {Same as the rest of the Chain!}

Shan to Kor

Upgrade The Sacred Helm and The Cloven Jaw Scourge: Blockade to Base Lvl 4.

Delera's

Upgrade Mystery of Delera's Tomb to Base Lvl 6.

Threnal

Upgrade In Need of Supplies and The Rescue to Base Lvl 9
Downgrade Secure the Area, Escort the Expedition, In Need of Reinforcements and The Gate Chamber to Base Lvl 9.
ADD the Giant Caves to the Compendium at Base Lvl 9!

Sands

Upgrade Chamber of Rahmat to Base Lvl 11.
Upgrade Offering of Blood to Base Lvl 12.

I can agree on a couple of these, but not all! Sorrowdusk is already a 2 part chain, lower- and upper- isle. if you look at it like that the gap is not that big. just run lower to flag upper and then return for upper 2 levels later.

I do feel Threnal is a mess, some quests that are earlier in the story are actually higher level than quests that follow up, this does not jimmy with BB and stuff.
The same thing goes for all those packs that have only one deviant quest, thus Menechtarun sides, why is one quest lower than caravan ? why is one of the flaggers one level lower than the others? Catacombs just make it all level 3. and Tangleroot could use a midway point like Sorrowdusk has. which would make the chain easier to split and thus lessen the level gap between start and end......

[FranOhmsford]

I can agree on a couple of these, but not all! Sorrowdusk is already a 2 part chain, lower- and upper- isle. if you look at it like that the gap is not that big. just run lower to flag upper and then return for upper 2 levels later.

Running Grey Moon and Co6 separately means soloing!
Have you ever tried to get a group together for just Grey Moon? I have and it's simply not possible!
As for Co6 - Starting at what is in effect pt 5 means that at least half the people who hit your LFM will be redboxing!


And the biggest argument against what you've stated is that making all of Grey Moon Lvl 7 {let's face it the first two quests would fit just as easily at lvl 7 as at lvl 6 and would be easily swapped with the last two quests in Splinterskull too.} would make running Grey Moon in one go MORE not less efficient!
The same goes for dropping the last two quests of Co6 to Lvl 9 - Making Co6 cover just the two levels rather than 3!

[RD2play]

Running Grey Moon and Co6 separately means soloing!
Have you ever tried to get a group together for just Grey Moon? I have and it's simply not possible!
As for Co6 - Starting at what is in effect pt 5 means that at least half the people who hit your LFM will be redboxing!

Sometimes, Yes, and got takers, on G-land this was on my recent life. We had to run the first part twice because some ppl joined late but it was no biggie! About Co6, yeah some people may have been redboxing, but by their own choice. As I told them how I usually run this content they all said that made more sense than running it all in one sitting (this has changed since BB, before it was never an issue to take 10% hit on the first 2). Also I specify in my LFM that I will be running only Lower resp. Upper Sorrowdusk. I feel this is supported by having to pick up Upper after you finished lower.

It is not that I don't think it would be easier (to get groups) if all of lower and all off Upper shared the same level, but in this particular pack I find it to be not so much of an issue. now if we talk tangleroot..... try to group that one with bb... every time I end up either soloing the whole thing, or have ppl drop half way leaving me to solo the remainder, no way to cut up story wise, and the wilderness doesn't support you if you run the higher level ones while at bb max.

And the biggest argument against what you've stated is that making all of Grey Moon Lvl 7 {let's face it the first two quests would fit just as easily at lvl 7 as at lvl 6 and would be easily swapped with the last two quests in Splinterskull too.} would make running Grey Moon in one go MORE not less efficient!
The same goes for dropping the last two quests of Co6 to Lvl 9 - Making Co6 cover just the two levels rather than 3!

As I said I am not against changing the levels of these, it would sure make things like finding groups for it easier. But, and this is for me personal and I can and will adapt. They are my "end of levelling" quests, meaning I can keep running the chain or level half way if I get close to capping. (yes I still bank some times) this is of course by no means a valid argument. haha!

The real question in the end is: Are these things we like to have the dev's spend time on changing? if enough ppl feel strongly about this I wont stand in the way! but I rather see new stuff personally.

I have to agree The things in your first reaction do make sense, so I agree that 3 levels difference in one chain is too much but for me 2 would be ok. unless the whole chain is one level then it makes no sense to have one be higher, unless it is a raid.

GL guys,

[Seikojin]

Tangleroot and Sorrowdusk would be so simple to fix {And yes we KNOW the Devs can change Quest Levels - They did it with Cabal when they moved that quest up from 13-14!}.

Tangleroot

Upgrade First Strike and The Hobgoblins' Captives to Base Lvl 4.
Downgrade The Way to Yarkuch and Yarkuch's Last Stand to Base Lvl 6.

Sorrowdusk

Upgrade The Iron Mines: Freeing Achka and Justice For Grust to Base Lvl 7.
Downgrade Quench the Flames and Church of the Fury to Base Lvl 9


Other Chains that could do with slight changes:

Catacombs

Downgrade Endgame: The Archbishop's Fate to Base Lvl 3 {Same as the rest of the Chain!}

Shan to Kor

Upgrade The Sacred Helm and The Cloven Jaw Scourge: Blockade to Base Lvl 4.

Delera's

Upgrade Mystery of Delera's Tomb to Base Lvl 6.

Threnal

Upgrade In Need of Supplies and The Rescue to Base Lvl 9
Downgrade Secure the Area, Escort the Expedition, In Need of Reinforcements and The Gate Chamber to Base Lvl 9.
ADD the Giant Caves to the Compendium at Base Lvl 9!

Sands

Upgrade Chamber of Rahmat to Base Lvl 11.
Upgrade Offering of Blood to Base Lvl 12.

+1, I agree that chains should be tighter in level ranges. Years ago it was fine, but now...

[salmag]

Tangleroot and Sorrowdusk would be so simple to fix {And yes we KNOW the Devs can change Quest Levels - They did it with Cabal when they moved that quest up from 13-14!}.

Tangleroot

Upgrade First Strike and The Hobgoblins' Captives to Base Lvl 4.
Downgrade The Way to Yarkuch and Yarkuch's Last Stand to Base Lvl 6.

Sorrowdusk

Upgrade The Iron Mines: Freeing Achka and Justice For Grust to Base Lvl 7.
Downgrade Quench the Flames and Church of the Fury to Base Lvl 9


Other Chains that could do with slight changes:

Catacombs

Downgrade Endgame: The Archbishop's Fate to Base Lvl 3 {Same as the rest of the Chain!}

Shan to Kor

Upgrade The Sacred Helm and The Cloven Jaw Scourge: Blockade to Base Lvl 4.

Delera's

Upgrade Mystery of Delera's Tomb to Base Lvl 6.

Threnal

Upgrade In Need of Supplies and The Rescue to Base Lvl 9
Downgrade Secure the Area, Escort the Expedition, In Need of Reinforcements and The Gate Chamber to Base Lvl 9.
ADD the Giant Caves to the Compendium at Base Lvl 9!

Sands

Upgrade Chamber of Rahmat to Base Lvl 11.
Upgrade Offering of Blood to Base Lvl 12.

Add 3BC to the mix - all should be level 6.

I would make all Greymoon level 6 and all CO6 level 8

[FranOhmsford]

Add 3BC to the mix - all should be level 6.

I would make all Greymoon level 6 and all CO6 level 8

The penultimate quest in Co6 is way way too difficult to be dropped to Base Lvl 8 {At Base Lvl 9 it should probably have the Challenging write up when opening it!}.

As for Grey Moon - I'd much prefer to drop the last two quests in Splinterskull to Lvl 6 and move up the 1st two in Sorrowdusk to Lvl 7 {Would fit better with the idea of finishing Tangleroot before moving on to Sorrowdusk!}.


Now for 3BC:

Guard Duty would need a complete over-haul to fit in as a Lvl 6 quest - It's barely a Lvl 5 as is!

Ghost of a Chance, Two-Toed Toby, Prove Your Worth and The Fire Caves are pretty much spot on as Lvl 5s.

The problem lies in the other 3 quests....
Trog's Get is far more difficult {COMPARATIVELY!} than its higher level successor - Old Grey Garl - Dropping Old Grey Garl to Base Lvl 6 would work.

The Scoundrel's Run is a joke on E-BB on a Lvl 9 Character!
Again it could easily be dropped to Base Lvl 6.

Dropping those two quests to Base Lvl 6 would have the added bonus of tieing them in at BB with the Maximum Slayer Level of 3BC - Lvl 8!

[salmag]

The penultimate quest in Co6 is way way too difficult to be dropped to Base Lvl 8 {At Base Lvl 9 it should probably have the Challenging write up when opening it!}.

As for Grey Moon - I'd much prefer to drop the last two quests in Splinterskull to Lvl 6 and move up the 1st two in Sorrowdusk to Lvl 7 {Would fit better with the idea of finishing Tangleroot before moving on to Sorrowdusk!}.


Now for 3BC:

Guard Duty would need a complete over-haul to fit in as a Lvl 6 quest - It's barely a Lvl 5 as is!

Ghost of a Chance, Two-Toed Toby, Prove Your Worth and The Fire Caves are pretty much spot on as Lvl 5s.

The problem lies in the other 3 quests....
Trog's Get is far more difficult {COMPARATIVELY!} than its higher level successor - Old Grey Garl - Dropping Old Grey Garl to Base Lvl 6 would work.

The Scoundrel's Run is a joke on E-BB on a Lvl 9 Character!
Again it could easily be dropped to Base Lvl 6.

Dropping those two quests to Base Lvl 6 would have the added bonus of tieing them in at BB with the Maximum Slayer Level of 3BC - Lvl 8!

All of these suggestions I can agree with.

/signed

[SirValentine]

This topic has been brought up before, and will probably continue to be as long as it continues to be a problem.

I don't have a problem with a single level difference, such as OOB or the last part of Catacombs. And I don't see any need to mess with any side-quests that are not directly part of a chain, even if they are part of the same pack. But some cases are way too annoying.

Tangleroot

Upgrade First Strike and The Hobgoblins' Captives to Base Lvl 4.
Downgrade The Way to Yarkuch and Yarkuch's Last Stand to Base Lvl 6.

/signed

Tangleroot spread across 5 levels is just way too much.

Threnal

Upgrade In Need of Supplies and The Rescue to Base Lvl 9
Downgrade Secure the Area, Escort the Expedition, In Need of Reinforcements and The Gate Chamber to Base Lvl 9.

Threnal's a mess. I fully support lowering Secure the Area, Escort the Expedition, and In Need of Reinforcements from 10 to 9. East and West chains are flagging quests, with a higher level than what they flag you for, South!

Personally, I don't see any need to adjust In Need of Supplies, The Rescue, or The Gate Chamber.

Sorrowdusk

Upgrade The Iron Mines: Freeing Achka and Justice For Grust to Base Lvl 7.
Downgrade Quench the Flames and Church of the Fury to Base Lvl 9

I don't see much of a problem with the range of Sorrowdusk quests. It's not a single chain; it's two separate chains. The first only has a single level difference. The second chain has a 2-level spread, same as the above suggestion for a compressed Tangleroot would have. However, either the slayer max level should be raised to 12, or, as you say, have the final quests in Co6 lowered to 9.

[FranOhmsford]

I don't have a problem with a single level difference, such as OOB or the last part of Catacombs. And I don't see any need to mess with any side-quests that are not directly part of a chain, even if they are part of the same pack. But some cases are way too annoying.

You don't see a problem with the Devs basically killing any chance of BB on Chamber of Rahmat?
and on the other hand....
You don't see a problem with them forcing you to go out to Sands a level early for just one quest?

As for the other chain I mentioned that has a side quest - Sacred Helm could fit just as easily {probably easier} at Lvl 4 than at its current Lvl 3!

Personally, I don't see any need to adjust In Need of Supplies, The Rescue, or The Gate Chamber.

The problem with Threnal is that the OPTIMUM way to run it is not how the game tells you to run it!

In Need of Supplies is the first quest in Threnal West
The Rescue is the 2nd quest in Threnal West
YET
The game tells you to run East first!
Add to that fact that the 1st quest in Threnal East is also lower level than the last quest in Threnal West - It's just a total mess!

Move the entire chain to Lvl 9 already!

Oh and The Gate Chamber is a 30 second quest that really should be part of the previous quest anyway - There's absolutely no reason for it to be set at a different level to said previous quest as you cannot stop and come back to it later!

I don't see much of a problem with the range of Sorrowdusk quests. It's not a single chain; it's two separate chains. The first only has a single level difference. The second chain has a 2-level spread, same as the above suggestion for a compressed Tangleroot would have. However, either the slayer max level should be raised to 12, or, as you say, have the final quests in Co6 lowered to 9.

I really don't get why multiple people are defending Sorrowdusk?

It's far worse than Tangleroot!

The entirety of Grey Moon Waning should be Lvl 7 and the entirety of Co6 could fit at Lvl 9.
I simply asked for the 1st two and the last two quests to be moved one level so as to make running this chain less of a chore - I ignored the middle two quests completely but as I say they could easily be also moved up a Lvl to 9!

Sorrowdusk Slayer is fine as it is - It's the quests that are the issue!

[SirValentine]

You don't see a problem with the Devs basically killing any chance of BB on Chamber of Rahmat?
and on the other hand....
You don't see a problem with them forcing you to go out to Sands a level early for just one quest?

Nope, no problem at all. Mainly because neither of those things are true. I always get BB for Rahmat. And I'm free to do some level 11 quests, too, while I'm out there for Rahmat. There's no rule that says I have to go only for one quest and then no more.

Oh and The Gate Chamber is a 30 second quest that really should be part of the previous quest anyway - There's absolutely no reason for it to be set at a different level to said previous quest as you cannot stop and come back to it later!

There's no gain to changing it's level for exactly that reason, that you don't stop and come back to it.. After you've run the level 9 pre-quest, and it make no difference whether Gate Chamber is 9 or 10 in those 30 seconds.

I really don't get why multiple people are defending Sorrowdusk?

It's far worse than Tangleroot!

Tangleroot chain, currently has quests at level 3, 4, 5, 6, and 7, a 4-level difference.

GMW chain currently has quests at level 6 & 7, a 1-level difference.
Co6 chain currently has quests at level 8, 9, and 10, a 2-level difference.

Tangleroot's 4-level difference is twice as much as Co6's 2-level difference.

You can pretend it's equally bad by conveniently ignoring the fact Sorrowdusk is not a single chain; it has two separate chains. That falsehood would make it seem like you have a 4-level difference...which still is only tied with Tangleroot, not "worse".

[FranOhmsford]

Nope, no problem at all. Mainly because neither of those things are true. I always get BB for Rahmat. And I'm free to do some level 11 quests, too, while I'm out there for Rahmat. There's no rule that says I have to go only for one quest and then no more.

Which means you're missing out on the BB XP elsewhere.

Even on a 3rd lifer I'm hard capped before completing all quests before I even reach Sands. There's already quests and even chains that I simply skip for later favour runs {or if it's an Epic Chain I'll usually run them on Heroic Elite first for Favour anyway as I only run Epics on Elite when they're part of a Saga or they have no Heroic version!}.

However - I run Rahmat every life!
And as it's one of the worst XP quests in the game I make d:rn sure I run it at Lvl 12 for BB!


The Devs put BB into the game and having a small number of quests not match up with BB is not a good thing!

I usually do run the last quest in Catacombs at Lvl 5 {same as every other quest in Catacombs!} and feel that there's absolutely no reason why this quest shouldn't be reduced to Base Lvl 3 while at the same time pushing let's say Sacred Helm or Swiped Signet up to Base Lvl 4.

It's no good simply moving a bunch of quests without making sure the numbers at each level stay relative.

Now....Moving every Threnal quest that's not already Lvl 9 to Lvl 9 AND moving the last two quests in Sorrowdusk down to Lvl 9 too could cause that sort of issue BUT Lvl 10 is already pretty sparse and is frankly the most likely level in the entire game to be skipped in its entirety {not counting Tempest's Spine}.
There's a ton of Lvl 9 quests and a ton of Lvl 11 quests already - Moving some of the Lvl 10s to base levels where they'd get more play can only be a good thing.

Also - Even with my changes there'd still be:
Tempest's Spine
Vault of Night/Plane of Night
Reclamation
Sykros' Jewel
Hiding in Plain Sight
Ghola Fan
Slavers of the Shrieking Mines

And all of the above are high xp quests! {maybe not high xp per minute but high xp per quest!}.

There's no gain to changing it's level for exactly that reason, that you don't stop and come back to it.. After you've run the level 9 pre-quest, and it make no difference whether Gate Chamber is 9 or 10 in those 30 seconds.

The Devs have proved with Cabal that they CAN change a Quest's level in the Compendium!
And I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say that it's most likely a simple change as Cabal didn't even necessarily NEED upgrading to Lvl 14! Yet they did it almost as an afterthought!

On the other hand it makes absolutely no sense that The Gate Chamber is Lvl 10 while Entering the Gate Chamber {a far far more difficult quest that HAS to be run each and every time you run The Gate Chamber!} is only Lvl 9!
Heck....
I'd accept them moving the Entering The Gate Chamber to Lvl 10 also {Just make these two quests the same d@rn level!}.

Tangleroot chain, currently has quests at level 3, 4, 5, 6, and 7, a 4-level difference.

GMW chain currently has quests at level 6 & 7, a 1-level difference.
Co6 chain currently has quests at level 8, 9, and 10, a 2-level difference.

Tangleroot's 4-level difference is twice as much as Co6's 2-level difference.

You can pretend it's equally bad by conveniently ignoring the fact Sorrowdusk is not a single chain; it has two separate chains. That falsehood would make it seem like you have a 4-level difference...which still is only tied with Tangleroot, not "worse".

I apologise as it seems I didn't make my point very well.

What I was getting at when I said that Sorrowdusk is worse than Tangleroot is that Tangleroot has multiple things done right whereas Grey Moon/Co6 gets them all wrong!

1} The NPC is right outside the entrance to Splinterskull! {Seriously in a good half of Sorrowdusk I spend more time running to and from the Questgiver than actually running the QUESTS!}.
2) You don't have to go back to the One Eared Bugbear Inn to repeat the d@mn chain - You DO have to go back to The Eye of Kol Korran to repeat Sorrowdusk!
3) When running Slayer clearances between quests you don't find yourself 5 minutes Expeditious Retreat away from the quest entrance at the end of said clearance in Tangleroot!
4) Tangleroot doesn't have seriously nasty traps with the trapboxes on the far side of said traps and NO shrine in the entire quest {Grey Moon Pt 1&2! and to a Lesser extent as there's actually a shrine in the second set of caves but an even worse trapped bridge that you sometimes have to cross not once but TWICE to finish the quest in Pt 3&4}
5) Tangleroot doesn't have a quest full of frankly insane traps and thousands of Mephits!
6) Tangleroot doesn't PUNISH the newbie or casual player who doesn't have the time to wait around for a group - Sorrowdusk DOES!

And finally - You can keep saying that Grey Moon and Co6 are seperate chains and if you want to take it literally you're right.
BUT
In actuality it is ONE chain split into two!
And it has the exact same level split for it's 10 quests as Splinterskull does! A level split that is just as bad for grouping in Sorrowdusk as it is in Tangleroot!

Again - I'm not seeing how we're even having this argument as I can't for the life of me understand why anyone would be happy with the current level splits in those two {or three if you want to split hairs} chains!

[ValariusK]

Most of these would be just fine if you installed a few checkpoint teleporters. Tangleroot, for instance, let us port to the Hobgoblin quest giver once we've been to him once or if there's a party member that has. Ditto for sorrowdusk, let us port to the 2nd ogre once we've been there once.

The problem with these chains isn't as much the level spread, its that it takes too long to get to the action to make it easy to get groups together to do them. Thus I usually just solo them and I'm not fond of soloing.
Deleras has a similarly large level spread---what is it, 5th level to 11th level?---but it doesn't have the problem because all of the quests are quick to get to.