Champion auto fail in Small Problem.

[redoubt]

Group was up top talking to spirit. Champion fire elemental spawned next to brawnpits and killed him before we could FF down to him.

[Oxarhamar]

That's WAI the new random Challenge Champions bring.

/broken

[caberonia]

Brawnpits needs to min/max for higher PRR and MRR. maybe he should run that quest on hard or normal if its too much of a challenge for him. Plus its only his first life.. Elite isn't balanced for that.. he needs some TRs before he can run elite.

/end sarcasm

Edit: Or as permabanned below me suggested.. your party could have properly meta-gamed the quest.

[PermaBanned]

Group was up top talking to spirit. Champion fire elemental spawned next to brawnpits and killed him before we could FF down to him.

Why were "we" Feather Falling down after talking to the Spirit? "We" should have cleared the mobs, then "we" should've dropped down to be ready to guard Brawn Pits when "I" or "You" talked to the Air Spirit.

If this was your first (or first few) run(s), you'll have a better strategy for next time. If you've run it multiple times before, you probably already knew the giant was going to be immediately ambushed, and also could've (should've?) known that it only takes one person to talk to the Air Spirit.

[redoubt]

Why were "we" Feather Falling down after talking to the Spirit? "We" should have cleared the mobs, then "we" should've dropped down to be ready to guard Brawn Pits when "I" or "You" talked to the Air Spirit.

If this was your first (or first few) run(s), you'll have a better strategy for next time. If you've run it multiple times before, you probably already knew the giant was going to be immediately ambushed, and also could've (should've?) known that it only takes one person to talk to the Air Spirit.

So are you saying that the only proper way to kill champions and complete quests is to metagame it? That playing a quest straight up is not an accepted way to play DDO?

Yes, I'm now being sarcastic. We have already completed the quest, yes. I'll be honest, this time the fire elementals did not spawn on top of him. Don't know why. We ran it same as before.

I'm simply providing a data point for the issues between champions and NPCs that need to be guarded.

[moo_cow]

Group was up top talking to spirit. Champion fire elemental spawned next to brawnpits and killed him before we could FF down to him.

Leave people at the fire elemental.

[PermaBanned]

So are you saying that the only proper way to kill champions and complete quests is to metagame it? That playing a quest straight up is not an accepted way to play DDO?

I'm saying that on it's hard & hardest difficulties, the game should actually present the opportunity to fail - and that "Metagaming" can greatly minimize that risk. What's wrong with Metagaming? Here in the real world we call it "benefitting from experience" and generally call it a good thing

Yes, I'm now being sarcastic. We have already completed the quest, yes. I'll be honest, this time the fire elementals did not spawn on top of him. Don't know why. We ran it same as before.

I'm simply providing a data point for the issues between champions and NPCs that need to be guarded.

Well, if they need to be guarded - I'd start by guarding them rather than allowing them to be ambushed then floating down to rescue them

[count_spicoli]

Group was up top talking to spirit. Champion fire elemental spawned next to brawnpits and killed him before we could FF down to him.

Got news for ya bud. Brawnpits died long before champions on elite I'd you didn't watch him after talking to spirit. This is nothing new

[redoubt]

I'm saying that on it's hard & hardest difficulties, the game should actually present the opportunity to fail - and that "Metagaming" can greatly minimize that risk. What's wrong with Metagaming? Here in the real world we call it "benefitting from experience" and generally call it a good thing



Well, if they need to be guarded - I'd start by guarding them rather than allowing them to be ambushed then floating down to rescue them

Lol... now you're just being argumentative. You know what I mean and why I posted. I don't need help, I just wanted to bring it to dev attention. They have mentioned trying to do something to help the NPCs deal with the extra champion damage.

Got news for ya bud. Brawnpits died long before champions on elite I'd you didn't watch him after talking to spirit. This is nothing new

I know, and I've solo'd this quest before. The new thing is bad luck with a champion having multiple damage boosts and killing him much faster than usual.

But thanks for the bumps, maybe someone will notice.

[Chi_Ryu]

I'm saying that on it's hard & hardest difficulties, the game should actually present the opportunity to fail

And conversely, it should offer the player a chance to succeed. I don't agree that the player should be blamed for not exploiting prior knowledge when you don't actually get the protect quest until you've spoken to the spirit.

Why not accept the simplest explanation here: PurpleFooz did not design the protect Brawnpits encounter with Champions in mind and it has not been revisited since, and he us weak enoigh to be killed very quickly by certain champ combinations.

The fairer - and more interesting, whilst still difficult - challenge is the whole keeping him alive when returning to the caravan, especially if you get multiple champion bosses at the end, it is not watching him get sniped from a distance whilst you trigger the quest objective required for the encounter, and working around that with metagame knowledge (which we can all do).

[Paleus]

I'm saying that on it's hard & hardest difficulties, the game should actually present the opportunity to fail - and that "Metagaming" can greatly minimize that risk. What's wrong with Metagaming? Here in the real world we call it "benefitting from experience" and generally call it a good thing

Well, if they need to be guarded - I'd start by guarding them rather than allowing them to be ambushed then floating down to rescue them

There is a difference between experience and meta-gaming. Take Edge of Tomorrow. Every other marine who fought in other battles and received training have experience whereas Tom Cruise's character is an example of just straight up meta-gaming. Experience is a good thing, meta-gaming is just knowing what comes next, which can be a decrease in challenge not based on skill, just foreknowledge.

I'm generally in favor of Champions because their variability actually decreases some of the benefit of meta-gaming, since you don't know ahead of time which mobs are going to be champions and which buffs they'll have. Unfortunately, in this situation, it sounds like their consequence is to increase the value of meta-gaming. I agree, Brawnpits should have a chance of dying, but he shouldn't be guaranteed to die if the player isn't meta-gaming and the mob spawns champions that will one-shot him.

[JOTMON]

Group was up top talking to spirit. Champion fire elemental spawned next to brawnpits and killed him before we could FF down to him.

Welcome to the new Champion edition of DDO.

Brawnpits meet Coyle.

Champions generally destroy NPC's with little effort since the NPC's were never designed to take that kind of damage in the original build and scope of the quest..

Maybe NPC's should get a amped up diplo on hit.. so anytime the NPC is hit in combat he does a amped up diplo effect redirecting aggro to the party.
The stop/shield ball works too..
Squishy NPC's are not a positive contribution to the game... No one cares if the NPC does any damage to mobs..

[dunklezhan]

I agree that you shouldn't ever have to leave someone behind in preparation for a future event you couldn't possibly have known in character was going to happen. It's metagamey which is a bit rubbish yes, but worse, its boring for the players involved.

In the case of Small Problem, it would be a good thing if it could be tweaked so that those fire ele's don't even appear until there is a player within X proximity of Brawnpits. He's a giant in a L7 (on elite) quest so he should be able to survive at least the few seconds it takes between that proximity-trigger happening and the players actually getting there.

[Doh]

Group was up top talking to spirit. Champion fire elemental spawned next to brawnpits and killed him before we could FF down to him.

YES. we need to make hard and elite easier.

[PermaBanned]

There is a difference between experience and meta-gaming. Take Edge of Tomorrow. Every other marine who fought in other battles and received training have experience whereas Tom Cruise's character is an example of just straight up meta-gaming. Experience is a good thing, meta-gaming is just knowing what comes next, which can be a decrease in challenge not based on skill, just foreknowledge.

I'm generally in favor of Champions because their variability actually decreases some of the benefit of meta-gaming, since you don't know ahead of time which mobs are going to be champions and which buffs they'll have. Unfortunately, in this situation, it sounds like their consequence is to increase the value of meta-gaming. I agree, Brawnpits should have a chance of dying, but he shouldn't be guaranteed to die if the player isn't meta-gaming and the mob spawns champions that will one-shot him.

I agree that you shouldn't ever have to leave someone behind in preparation for a future event you couldn't possibly have known in character was going to happen. It's metagamey which is a bit rubbish yes, but worse, its boring for the players involved.

Huh? "Metagaming" has been a player's staple ever since the age of the Atari 2600 (if not sooner). You progress, meet an obstacle, die, restart, meet same obstical with foreknowledge and succeed then progress further to next obstacle that defeats you, repeat. Jungle Hunt, Super Mario Bros, Zelda... Now that we're doing it in MMOs it's a no-no? Lol whatever, it's the same thing: Meet obstacle, get defeated by it, respawn & retry. Sure the Champs throw a pleasant bit of random in, but preparing for the Ambush after the Air Spirit? No different than pre-knowing you need to jump off the vine at X point in the swing to progress, or that if you jump on top of the screen here you can get to the Warp Tubes.


I get (after they pointed it out ) the OP was just showcasing another instance where NPCs are more difficult to protect due to Champs - but honestly, to have the problem they at least asked the game to be Hard, if not even harder than Hard, and didn't use the benefit of their prior experience, and the Champs won. I don't see the problem here.

[Qhualor]

I agree that you shouldn't ever have to leave someone behind in preparation for a future event you couldn't possibly have known in character was going to happen. It's metagamey which is a bit rubbish yes, but worse, its boring for the players involved.

In the case of Small Problem, it would be a good thing if it could be tweaked so that those fire ele's don't even appear until there is a player within X proximity of Brawnpits. He's a giant in a L7 (on elite) quest so he should be able to survive at least the few seconds it takes between that proximity-trigger happening and the players actually getting there.

back in the day and well before Champions, it was common for one player to talk to the air ele while the rest of the group was down at Brawnpits. that fight actually took a few minutes and very risky to fail even back then. those fire eles spawn with hounds a few seconds after talking to the ele right next to Brawnpits. wouldnt be much of an ambush on Brawnpits if the mobs had to wait until you get there first.

now before anybody says im defending this, I have said that NPCs need a buff with Champions in the game now. the devs have also said they will be doing that.

[JOTMON]

YES. we need to make hard and elite easier.

Having a Coyle version of Brawnpits getting wiped out before the party can even get to him is not about making the quest easier.
The NPC's of these quests were never designed with Champions in mind they were designed based on the original build of the quest.

Many aspects of quests failed to get addressed when changes are made.. like instant Red DA on trash spawns..
The impact on NPC's from amping up damage and effects on newly introduced Champions into pre-existing quests still need to be addressed.

[jalont]

So are you saying that the only proper way to kill champions and complete quests is to metagame it? That playing a quest straight up is not an accepted way to play DDO?

Yes, I'm now being sarcastic. We have already completed the quest, yes. I'll be honest, this time the fire elementals did not spawn on top of him. Don't know why. We ran it same as before.

I'm simply providing a data point for the issues between champions and NPCs that need to be guarded.

This strategy was figured out long before champions were a thing in order to prevent the thing you just described.

I'm not sure there's anything more to say.

[dunklezhan]

back in the day and well before Champions, it was common for one player to talk to the air ele while the rest of the group was down at Brawnpits. that fight actually took a few minutes and very risky to fail even back then.

I didn't mention champions - for exactly that reason! The fact that this was a required tactic always irked me before and it still irks me, champions or no champions.

those fire eles spawn with hounds a few seconds after talking to the ele right next to Brawnpits. wouldnt be much of an ambush on Brawnpits if the mobs had to wait until you get there first.

The 'fun' of a quest-ending ambush happening to an absent NPC within an RPG or MMO should come from the risk that things could go south, and the drama of managing that risk. That means you have to know about the risk. You should not have to learn about the risk from first failing the quest and subsequently metagaming. There should be a good chance the NPC will die yes, but the chances of that happening before players get there should be much much lower. That's all. In the case of champions, that chance that the NPC will die once the players show up should be that much higher.

If you don't help, the NPC should die, absolutely. But you should get the opportunity to help without having to metagame. That could be a proximity spawn, or it could be that there is a minimum HP value that the NPC can fall to until the players are within some kind of proximity (i.e. 'close enough to tell that something bad is happening, and then react quickly'). But proximity, or GM text with enough time to get back, or something is better than players having no chance at figuring out from the information revealed during the quest that might be an ambush and getting back in time to prevent quest failure - at which point player skill or build ability can have an effect (i.e. you'll still need to be good to succeed).

To go back to champions specifically in this case: champions exist to provide an element of randomness to familiar situations. Not to make the risk of unavoidable-without-metagaming fails even worse. By all means lets throw champions at Brawnpits. Let's just not have them or anything else kill him before a PC has had a reasonable in-game reason to get back there in time to figure out they have to do something about it.

[Chi_Ryu]

This strategy was figured out long before champions were a thing in order to prevent the thing you just described..

So what?

The OP is not asking for advice how to solve the problem, he is demonstrating a behaviour that is exacerbated by the combination of certain champions and protect quests, where NPCs have not been revisited to account for them.

The simple fact is that Champions were not factored into the design of these quests, and the continued suggestion that someone be parked by Brawnpits is a workaround.

There is little challenge or fun in having NPCs killed before the real challenge started, any more than there was any fun in protecting the captured enemy ship in "Wing Commander"'s Kurosawa System (mission 13)*, where the only way to complete this is to totally metagame it or rely on luck. It's cheap, and it's not fun. What is more fun is "winning" through your own actions, rather than having to pre-empt and cheese through.

(* Even worse, that mission was a critical one to the system, so you would then automatically "lose" the entire system and move one step away from the "bad" ending, no matter how well you'd played the rest of the game. I'm not sure if this was deliberate design or not, but it was universally hated.)

(Having said that, I wouldn't want them to do a "Coyle" to Brawnpits - I finally played the new "Hold for Reinforcements" the other day, and it is now a total waste of time triviality - rather than an infuriating quest that is still achievable)