Axel's THF Melee Cleric Build

[Enderoc]

A few comments:

1. Metamagics: aside from empower healing and quicken, why do you take maximize and empower? You spell DPS is going to be really bad and you melee all the time, what exactly is gained with those feats?

With an item that grants force damage, with empower and maximize if you invest in spellcraft diligently you can pull of some moderate damage from your offensive spells more so if you are in an ED that grants Cleric caster levels. I run a Harper Clonk that maxed spellcraft with an intelligence of 42. When I crit on BB I sometimes pull 480 damage even saved when I cast with a staff that gives me 144 force power with only maximize with 11 cleric levels and 5 from a divine ED. When a champ spawns I use that to weaken the mobs a bit before jumping into melee sometimes.

I know this is bent more on melee. Just something to consider when you are building your own temps. That is also considering you are in a divine tree that grants divine levels. Off destinies...not so much.

[Susquehana]

Axel thank you for the build and all your detail in how to play it. I used it as a template and changed a couple things to make it as a shield user and I love it. Thank you again.

[axel15810]

Thank you for posting, I like to discuss builds.

I see that now, I was thinking that aura and usual healing spells do not benefit from it, but forgot about that burst. But couldn't you get away with just healing from your spells and aura? Having so many points into radiant servant (plus good h amp for you) could make you a quite respectable healer, IMO. Obviously free heals are great, but I wonder how needed they are in a cleric. After all you do take a lot of cleric levels and healing spells are relatively cheap.

They're essential for party healing on a melee cleric, you couldn't get away with it. Healing spells are expensive actually, Mass cure critical with empower heal and quicken costs 65 SP I believe. One quickened heal is 50 SP. You wouldn't be able to heal very long without bursts.

MY point was to drop the fighter levels and go for another class. To add more DPS I couldn't come up with anything better than FVS and burst, but maybe there are other options. Thoughts on that? Yes I know that you lose haste. But in LD you can haste and still use the racial haste, so all in all does not seem like a huge loss.

I can't think of a better alternative than taking fighter for haste boost. Draconic bursts is a solid option though, especially in EN and EH.

Fortification does not matter in weapon accounting, except of course when you compare different amounts of fort bypass. That's not the case here.

Those numbers are usually run for paladins. Thats the difference. A paladin with a falchion benefits more from holy sword in falchion because pulverizer does not stack. For a paladin:

Falchion
BASE*(1/20)*0 + BASE*(11/20)*1 + BASE*(8/20)*3=BASE*1.75

Maul:
BASE*(1/20)*0 + BASE*(15/20)*1 + BASE*(4/20)*4=BASE*1.55

See? The falchion is way ahead. But in your case, you don't have HS and hence the maul is way ahead.

If for no other reason, I'm pretty sure TF Falchion is solidly ahead of TF Maul because it gets more dragon's edge procs.

How do you get helpless mobs? I don't see any obvious way in this build to induce helpless. Unless I am wrong, sense weakness seems a waste to me in a build without tons of stunning abilities. If you have them and I have not noticed them, please do let me know.

It's not for the extra damage against helpless, although that's a nice side perk.

The main reason for that twist is the 1d8 extra untyped damage to enemies below 75% HP, 1d12 extra damage to enemies below 50% HP, and 1d20 extra damage to enemies below 25% HP. And all these stack so when we're talking raid bosses, minibosses and many other huge sacks of HP you see in Epic Elite that's a ton of extra damage.

Sure, builds are very personal. I just think that in DC it would be relatively easy to build a lot of fire spell power. With some FVS you would get extra spell points and a decent improvement in crits. All in all, your burst could be dealing quite some damage.

What is keeping me from respeccing into this is precisely the damage output. Don't get me wrong, it works just fine with the survivability and I like your build, but I'd trade a bit of the healing for more DPS.

Well, I wouldn't run DC over LD unless I know I'm not going to be able to keep up blitz in the quest/raid. Giving up blitz is a big DPS loss. But I'm going to test out draconic bursts more when I get to my arcane epic past lives and have to run in draconic. I still have an open mind about it. Yep the DPS on the build is not as good as say a barbarian or paladin but it's still pretty good. And it brings extra survivability, buffs, party/self-healing, some kiting ability and utility that those builds don't have which is why I love running it so much.

Axel thank you for the build and all your detail in how to play it. I used it as a template and changed a couple things to make it as a shield user and I love it. Thank you again.

Awesome, glad you found it helpful.

[Domacett]

Would swinging a staff significantly change the build? I only ask for flavor reasons, but with the change in rogue haste boost I wonder if splashing rogue instead of fighter might be a viable alternative.

[BigErkyKid]

They're essential for party healing on a melee cleric, you couldn't get away with it. Healing spells are expensive actually, Mass cure critical with empower heal and quicken costs 65 SP I believe. One quickened heal is 50 SP. You wouldn't be able to heal very long without bursts. .

From a power gaming stand point, I think you invest too much in those heals. I mean, if a paladin with fewer SP and positive spell power and similar h amp can get through quests so should your cleric. However, I agree that if you want a build that can simply LAST almost forever, your choice is appropriate.

I can't think of a better alternative than taking fighter for haste boost. Draconic bursts is a solid option though, especially in EN and EH..

After capping (almost, at 27) my variation of this, I agree. Burst is better if you go Shoikan style, here it is a bit ad hoc.

If for no other reason, I'm pretty sure TF Falchion is solidly ahead of TF Maul because it gets more dragon's edge procs..

I don't think so. Particularly in end game without t3 weapons. In any case, the critical profile of the falchion is worse than that of the maul in your build. I have show that, after that do as you wish :P

It's not for the extra damage against helpless, although that's a nice side perk.
The main reason for that twist is the 1d8 extra untyped damage to enemies below 75% HP, 1d12 extra damage to enemies below 50% HP, and 1d20 extra damage to enemies below 25% HP. And all these stack so when we're talking raid bosses, minibosses and many other huge sacks of HP you see in Epic Elite that's a ton of extra damage. .

A tier 4 twist for 1d8+1d12+1d20. That is 4.5+6.5+10.5 = 21.5 of extra damage at best. Honestly, I would rather twist consecrated ground. It will be more damage and helpful for the party. Sense weakness is frankly a bad choice.

But I'm going to test out draconic bursts more when I get to my arcane epic past lives and have to run in draconic. I still have an open mind about it.

Burst is going to need a huge investment in this build. The synergy simply is not there, IMHO. I tried the hard way just because I was stuck with with a cleric anyway.

Yep the DPS on the build is not as good as say a barbarian or paladin but it's still pretty good. And it brings extra survivability, buffs, party/self-healing, some kiting ability and utility that those builds don't have which is why I love running it so much..

I think it is a great build for those who want to play allowing for more mistakes and at a slower pace. It is hard to die. The damage output is mediocre. I don't say in a mean way, but it is what it is. You have no good crit enhancer or great on hit effects. It is compensated by the sturdiness and I think it is a viable build. Great for parties of melees simply because of the aura, allows you to play most content at a relatively slow but safe pace.

I had fun playing my variation of this. So, thanks for reminding me that healing aura is not completely useless :P

[ThePrincipal]

A pure 20 melee cleric is a lot of fun and does not give up much melee. it can still do full party heals and buffs.

[axel15810]

Would swinging a staff significantly change the build? I only ask for flavor reasons, but with the change in rogue haste boost I wonder if splashing rogue instead of fighter might be a viable alternative.

I've hardly even looked at the new rogue trees to be honest so I'm not sure.

[ArchStriker]

finally something that fits my playstyle! any horc/wf/ or dwarf variations? thanks

[firemedium_jt]

finally something that fits my playstyle! any horc/wf/ or dwarf variations? thanks

You can do the Horc, but you really don't have the enhancement points for the racial line 2hd bonuses. They are better spend on Aura and Pally HP bonuses and Tier 1 FTR. WF is overkill on the CON with Pally Hp and the immunities with the Pally saves. Dwarf with the CON is overkill too, but they are all fun to play depending on your play style.

[ArchStriker]

You can do the Horc, but you really don't have the enhancement points for the racial line 2hd bonuses. They are better spend on Aura and Pally HP bonuses and Tier 1 FTR. WF is overkill on the CON with Pally Hp and the immunities with the Pally saves. Dwarf with the CON is overkill too, but they are all fun to play depending on your play style.

How about h-elf?

edit: i don't like humans lol

[firemedium_jt]

How about h-elf?

edit: i don't like humans lol

No matter what u pick it will be survivable and able to melee in EE or elite with PAL2 with lots of synergy with EDs.

[unbongwah]

finally something that fits my playstyle! any horc/wf/ or dwarf variations? thanks

Humans get an extra feat, more skill pts, and the best "low-hanging fruit" in their racial tree (i.e., Dmg Boost & heal amp). As mentioned, this build doesn't have the APs to spare to invest more than a few pts into racial trees without giving up offense or defense from the class PrEs. That said, it's not hard to adapt the build to whatever race you want; battleclerics are usually pretty flexible, particularly if you're not wedded to having lvl 9 spells.

[axel15810]

finally something that fits my playstyle! any horc/wf/ or dwarf variations? thanks

Sure, you can pick any race you'd like but Human/PDK is the best from a min/max perspective. You don't have much AP to spare to spend in racial trees so if you go another race you're essentially giving up a feat, damage boost and heal amp and getting nothing in return. Like above stated, low hanging fruit in other racial trees is meh.

But DDO is not all about mix/maxing. Go another race if that's more fun to you. In the end being happy with what you're looking at for hours is more important than min/maxing.

You'll have to give up a feat if sticking with the 15/4/1 split, probably empower, since you'll lose the human bonus feat. If you do go another race you might consider going 15 cleric / 3 pally / 2 fighter instead to make up the feat difference. 4 pally gives you access to extra healing amp you don't get with 3 pally. But myself if I wasn't human I'd rather have empower to boost radiant bursts so I'd probably go 15/3/2. Also if you want half-orc, PDK is very similar. They have the same body style and combat animations.

[axel15810]

Made a few updates to the build. The final gearset I should have updated a while ago. Mysterious Bracers are a solid upgrade to Leviks, so that was replaced. Also changed weapon from thunderforged falchion to maul. It seems clear after going through the math with some other players that when combined with Pulverizer from Dreadnaught, thunderforged maul has the best overall crit profile and best overall DPS. Also will have to swap improved crit: slash to improved crit: bludgeon whenever you are able to equip that TF Maul.

Also I don't feel any of the new temple of elemental evil items are good enough to put into the final gear set. Hopefully I'll get something worth updating it with in Update 26.

[biglou]

I know this would change the build quiet a bit but do the two Tenacious Defenses stack, since the paladin one is sacred. Meaning can you do cleric 14/ paladin 3/ fighter 3, and get 40% boost to hp. I know you loose level 8 spells so that just about makes it a deal breaker.

[unbongwah]

I know this would change the build quiet a bit but do the two Tenacious Defenses stack, since the paladin one is sacred. Meaning can you do cleric 14/ paladin 3/ fighter 3, and get 40% boost to hp.

NO: you can only have one defensive stance active at a time. The passive bonuses in Sacred / Stalwart D. will stack (e.g., Armor / Shield Masteries), but the stance bonuses can't.

If you really want +40% HPs, I believe Unyielding Sentinel's Strength of Vitality will stack with Sacred Tenacious Defense; though obviously US isn't a DPS-oriented ED.

[Doutrinador]

Axel, would you make a Tank version of you build? A Tank with aura + stances would be very survival, i think the problem would be DPS to hold agroo.

[axel15810]

Axel, would you make a Tank version of you build? A Tank with aura + stances would be very survival, i think the problem would be DPS to hold agroo.

If I was to make a tanky version I'd build the same way, just run in Sentinel instead of Dreadnaught. Take the threat enhancements in that tree. Throw on some threat gear possibly, but Sentinel alone gives you a ton of threat and a ton of HP. I wouldn't go sword and board, since you need a lot of AP invested in Vanguard to be effective with S&B and we just don't have enough AP for that.

[myliftkk_v2]

Thanks! The EE chrono solo was a serious pain, but got through it. Lol, probably not ever doing it again though!

Go with the fighter level early, level 1 or 2. You have to have it for martial proficiencies - plus you want that haste boost as soon as possible. Saves and bloated HP from my experience aren't that vital until epics, so I'd take all cleric levels next to get my spells as early as possible until you are 15 cleric/ 1 fighter. You especially want to not put off blade barrier or your radiant servant abilities. Then take the paladin levels.

I've been playing around with this build and enjoy it immensely. I found taking the level 1 cleric/1 fighter/4 pally first, while putting off some healing abilities, was more effective for me at loading up DPS early on with the exalted cleaves and smites.

[firemedium_jt]

Enlarge can't be applied to radiant aura or burst. I don't think it can be applied to Consecration either but I am not 100% sure. Consecration is overkill on healing for a cleric anyways, I almost never use it.

It wouldn't make a difference on Cocoon since it has unlimited range as is.

So yeah, I'm thinking Precision or Epic DR. Really not much else left that is very appealing.

GTHF
GCleave
OC
Emp Heal
Maximize
Empower
PA

What else for LVL27?

Enlarge, for Cocoon range. It work for Consecration?
Ruin
Permahaste, but get that on gear like Goat boots.
Epic Reflex
Precision, (took dex 11 +2 tome). I like PA better and it is one or the other?

Suggestions?

I ended up taking Epic DR (physical resistance now). It is worth it? It only increased my PR from 76 to 86 or 43% to 46%. I have a free feat swap.