Axel's THF Melee Cleric Build

[axel15810]

Sorry if this has already been talked about - a super lazy search and skim for the phrase "Cormyrean Knight Training" didn't pick up anything.
I was about to try out a PDK version when I wondered,
"Would it be any better to max Charisma instead of Strength if the Cormyrean Knight Training enhancement from the PDK tree was taken?"

I don't know everything you'd get or lose with more CHA and less STR in this build.

A CHA build...
-Cost 2 AP for Cormyrean Knight Training
-Still require 17 base str for GTHF but STR could be supplemented with a tome
-With fewer points spent in STR and past lives it would be possible to start with 18 CHA (Although there might be a better places to put the points, maybe? I dunno.)
-Give a few more saves from Divine Grace?
-Is there any effect on SP's? If Cleric and Paladin SPs are only affected by Wisdom, then it wouldn't matter.

Are there any good reasons not to take Cormyrean Knight Training and focus on increasing CHA while reducing STR?
Would I just be wasting my time taking Cormyrean Knight Training?

Not a good choice for this build for 2 main reasons:

- Divine Might adds to STR, so you wouldn't benefit from it on a CHA based melee. Also other STR based boosts like Tenser's.

- That enhancement narrows you down to only greatswords for THF, and longsword, bastard sword and shortsword for SWF/TWF. Most of those weapons have inferior crit profiles, and also don't allow you to benefit from the +1 crit threat range in pulverizer (it requires bludgeoning). Or even the +1 crit multiplier in headman's chop (that requires axes). That is somewhat mitigated though because there are some nice weapons in those types released recently, like the Fellblade. However, there are also somewhat equivalent new named weapons like the Epic Riftmaker not in those types that do qualify for some of those Dreadnaught enhancements. And there's T3 Thunderforged which is still the go to EE trashkiller because of mortal fear which can as well. So I suppose my original point stands.

So overall that enhancement is actually a big DPS loss and you only gain a little to saves in return.

[MerryOldSoul]

Have done four epic lives with this build now. Aura with crusade has kept many a group up in EE, thanks again for a fun build.

[axel15810]

Have done four epic lives with this build now. Aura with crusade has kept many a group up in EE, thanks again for a fun build.

Cool to hear, I'm glad people are enjoying this. The video has ~5.5k views at this point - I've been pleasantly surprised at all the positive feedback and how many people seem to be running this now. Battle clerics are so much fun.

[Augon]

Hi Axel,
Nice build.

Why did you take the feat "Cleave" and "Exalted Cleave" from the KOC tree?

[firemedium_jt]

Hi Axel,
Nice build.

Why did you take the feat "Cleave" and "Exalted Cleave" from the KOC tree?

It is a two handed weapon Cleave build. Exalted Cleave does use the Cleave timer. Great Cleave requires Cleave and Cleave requires Power Attack. Also Cleave is required for Momentum Swing and therefore Laywaste from the Legendary Dreadnought Epic Destiny tree. LD ED puts on the most melee DPS damage in most opinions for melee builds. Laywaste knockdown is handing for crowd control.

[axel15810]

Hi Axel,
Nice build.

Why did you take the feat "Cleave" and "Exalted Cleave" from the KOC tree?

Because you have to take something to get to the higher tiers of KotC, and even though an extra +3W damage per cleave isn't amazing it's better than other options. And this is a build that should be cleaving constantly.

[Augon]

Because you have to take something to get to the higher tiers of KotC, and even though an extra +3W damage per cleave isn't amazing it's better than other options. And this is a build that should be cleaving constantly.

That makes sense.
I came across your build because Im looking for ideas for building a cleric that can do respectable DPS. Yours seems like the best place to start.

Since Cleave (the Feat) and Exalted Cleave share a cool down, one or the other is redundant. However, in this build they are both prerequisites for other things so are certainly not wasted.

I'm wondering, since Avenging Cleave does more damage than great cleave, would it be a fair trade off to go CLE15/PAL5 and forgo the Aura?

Of course, possibly more important than the aura I'd lose by not going T5 in Cleric, I'd lose Haste boost from Fighter tree. Which, as you say is a nice burst DPS.

However, you could pick up Holy Retribution, which in my experience is good DPS although I'd probably never land the instakill part since Id only have 5 Paly levels.

Do you think this would weaken the character overall?

[Augon]

It is a two handed weapon Cleave build. Exalted Cleave does use the Cleave timer. Great Cleave requires Cleave and Cleave requires Power Attack. Also Cleave is required for Momentum Swing and therefore Laywaste from the Legendary Dreadnought Epic Destiny tree. LD ED puts on the most melee DPS damage in most opinions for melee builds. Laywaste knockdown is handing for crowd control.

I didn't notice your post before responding to Axels.

I know its a two handed weapon cleave build. My question wasn't why does it have cleave, it was why did it need two cleaves that use same cool down.

I forgot that Momentum required Cleave (the Feat) - I would not have a melee build, especially a 2HF melee build, without power attack. so I was really only thinking of forgoing Cleave and Gr Cleave feats in favor of the enhancements. But I was counting on Mom swing and lay waste, cant forgo those.

So, still pondering, I wonder how my idea above would work if I took Cleave, but not great cleave for feats and took Exalt Cleave and Avenge cleave from KOTC. Not as thrifty on feats as my idea above, still have two abilities that share a cool down, but it looks like the enhancements are stronger than the feats so better in combat.

However, do the enhancements have the same chance to reset Momentum Swing?

[axel15810]

That makes sense.
I came across your build because Im looking for ideas for building a cleric that can do respectable DPS. Yours seems like the best place to start.

Since Cleave (the Feat) and Exalted Cleave share a cool down, one or the other is redundant. However, in this build they are both prerequisites for other things so are certainly not wasted.

I'm wondering, since Avenging Cleave does more damage than great cleave, would it be a fair trade off to go CLE15/PAL5 and forgo the Aura?

Of course, possibly more important than the aura I'd lose by not going T5 in Cleric, I'd lose Haste boost from Fighter tree. Which, as you say is a nice burst DPS.

However, you could pick up Holy Retribution, which in my experience is good DPS although I'd probably never land the instakill part since Id only have 5 Paly levels.

Do you think this would weaken the character overall?

It's all about balancing how much DPS you want against how much healing you want. The more DPS you build in, generally the less healing you'll have and vice versa.

I think atleast 1 fighter is mandatory, haste boost mixed with damage boost is a huge deal to me. The synergy there is big, and I think a burst DPS option is super important to take down mini-bosses and champions quickly.

You could drop aura, but that to me defeats the purpose of the build. Part of the reason to take cleric levels is to have a character that can both party heal and DPS. If you drop the aura, by far your best tool for party healing and the definitive feature of the cleric class, I don't see enough reason to take cleric levels. If you don't want aura just build a paladin to get better DPS from holy sword. And that's totally fine. You can run a paladin that can heal (it won't be able to heal as well as a cleric though), utilize epic destiny abilities like consecration, cocoon and renewal.

[Augon]

It's all about balancing how much DPS you want against how much healing you want. The more DPS you build in, generally the less healing you'll have and vice versa.

I think atleast 1 fighter is mandatory, haste boost mixed with damage boost is a huge deal to me. The synergy there is big, and I think a burst DPS option is super important to take down mini-bosses and champions quickly.

You could drop aura, but that to me defeats the purpose of the build. Part of the reason to take cleric levels is to have a character that can both party heal and DPS. If you drop the aura, by far your best tool for party healing and the definitive feature of the cleric class, I don't see enough reason to take cleric levels. If you don't want aura just build a paladin to get better DPS from holy sword. And that's totally fine. You can run a paladin that can heal (it won't be able to heal as well as a cleric though), utilize epic destiny abilities like consecration, cocoon and renewal.

Thanks

[HernandoCortez]

Looks very interesting. I've been looking for a battlecleric for a while now.
I have this lvl 26 morninglord cleric and I would like to LR into a build like this.
Any ideas about how I could make it work?

[axel15810]

Looks very interesting. I've been looking for a battlecleric for a while now.
I have this lvl 26 morninglord cleric and I would like to LR into a build like this.
Any ideas about how I could make it work?

You can build it mostly the same. It won't be as good since you aren't human but it should do fine. You'll be down a feat being morninglord so you have to pick one to drop. I'd drop empower.

Being morninglord you'll also lose human damage boost and human heal amp but atleast you'll free up a few more points to spend elsewhere.

[unbongwah]

I have this lvl 26 morninglord cleric and I would like to LR into a build like this.
Any ideas about how I could make it work?

Presuming you're talking pure cleric, you would need an LR +5 to switch to cleric 15 / pal 4 / ftr 1 like this build. You also need to make sure you're Lawful Good, otherwise you can't take pally lvls. Finally, non-human / PDK versions of this build lose a heroic feat; I would probably drop either Empower or Gt Cleave, depending on whether you'd rather give up some Spellpower or an AoE atk.

[HernandoCortez]

You can build it mostly the same. It won't be as good since you aren't human but it should do fine. You'll be down a feat being morninglord so you have to pick one to drop. I'd drop empower.

Being morninglord you'll also lose human damage boost and human heal amp but atleast you'll free up a few more points to spend elsewhere.

So, overall the greater loss will be human boost and heal amp? I think its worth a shot, then.
Thank you for the reply.

[HernandoCortez]

Presuming you're talking pure cleric, you would need an LR +5 to switch to cleric 15 / pal 4 / ftr 1 like this build. You also need to make sure you're Lawful Good, otherwise you can't take pally lvls. Finally, non-human / PDK versions of this build lose a heroic feat; I would probably drop either Empower or Gt Cleave, depending on whether you'd rather give up some Spellpower or an AoE atk.

Yes, my morninglord is pure cleric atm. I think I have a couple +3 lesser hearts somewhere... but not sure about being lawful good, probably I'm just neutral good. Dang... Seems like I'll have a TR incoming soon.

[axel15810]

Yes, my morninglord is pure cleric atm. I think I have a couple +3 lesser hearts somewhere... but not sure about being lawful good, probably I'm just neutral good. Dang... Seems like I'll have a TR incoming soon.

DDO store also sells alignment changes if you want to go that route.

[Son_of_the_South]

Hey Axel,

I noticed recently that if you take Overwhelming Crit and then want to swap Improved Crit: (x), you can't. I assume this is because IC is a prereq for OC. I'll prob use a MinII GA from 15-20 so this won't be an issue but are there any decent Mauls for lower level epics? Should I just take IC: Bludgeon in heroics, use my MinII, then use a TF Maul (non upgraded) from 22 or whatever the ML is and the ES staff for the two levels before that??

SotS

[axel15810]

Hey Axel,

I noticed recently that if you take Overwhelming Crit and then want to swap Improved Crit: (x), you can't. I assume this is because IC is a prereq for OC. I'll prob use a MinII GA from 15-20 so this won't be an issue but are there any decent Mauls for lower level epics? Should I just take IC: Bludgeon in heroics, use my MinII, then use a TF Maul (non upgraded) from 22 or whatever the ML is and the ES staff for the two levels before that??

SotS

Yep, I noticed this as well while trying to do it myself. I wish Fred was coded better. You can do the swap right before you take level 21 - then you'd only have 1 level to make it through until you get access to a tier zero TF maul at level 22.

As far as a decent maul to get through level 21, greensteel maul, epic mournlode maul or epic fury of the flame are all OK for that level.

[Son_of_the_South]

[QUOTE=axel15810;5702089]Yep, I noticed this as well while trying to do it myself. I wish Fred was coded better. QUOTE]

Add this to the list of improvements from the PC.

You use GS Maul from 15-20? If so Lit or MinII

[axel15810]

[QUOTE=Son_of_the_South;5702091]

Yep, I noticed this as well while trying to do it myself. I wish Fred was coded better. QUOTE]

Add this to the list of improvements from the PC.

You use GS Maul from 15-20? If so Lit or MinII

Haven't been to heroics in a long time, but when I'm in that level range I use heroic SoS.