Best CON drain epic melee?

[Saekee]

Sacrificial dagger from ID can come with virulent constitution poison, neg levels too and ofc can be used as swashbuckler.

Legendkilleroll, the more I think about your suggestion, the more it appeals to me. I also happen to have that exact version of the dagger.
Epic Sting, OTOH, will take forever to craft. I enthusiastically ran AdQ and ZR last night on an EH solo with my level 25 stealth build. I completed--wasn't so bad--but did not pull any shards nor a seal in a quick Offering of Blood. Even with the increased drop rates, this will be a painful grind. At least my EMG grind was in an easily repeatable quest.

[Saekee]

I think one of the advantages of the 12 wiz/8 fighter split is the use of plate armor. Swashbuckling with SWF will lock that out and I do not like the idea of being in light armor without evasion. Here is what the build might look like; please post suggestions. Basically, everything in INT, rest in CON and enough DEX for TWF (I have a +4 Dex tome, +5 CON, +3 everything else). As mentioned in the calculations of this thread, destiny is Divine Crusader to maximize critical threat range with WoP rapiers.

Level 20 Neutral Drow Male
(8 Fighter / 12 Wizard)
Hit Points: 300
Spell Points: 755

BAB: 14/14/19/24
Fortitude: 14
Reflex: 16
Will: 10

Starting Ending Feat/Enhancement
Abilities Base Stats Base Stats Modified Stats
(32 Point) (Level 1) (Level 20) (Level 20)
Strength 9 12 12
Dexterity 15 19 20
Constitution 14 19 19
Intelligence 20 28 30
Wisdom 8 11 11
Charisma 10 13 13

Level 1 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Precision
Feat: (Selected) Two Weapon Fighting

Level 2 (Wizard)
Feat: (Wizard Bonus) Extend Spell

Level 3 (Wizard)
Feat: (Selected) Weapon Focus: Piercing Weapons

Level 4 (Wizard)
Level 5 (Wizard)

Level 6 (Wizard)
Feat: (Selected) Insightful Reflexes
Feat: (Wizard Bonus) Quicken Spell

Level 7 (Wizard)
Level 8 (Wizard)

Levvel 9 (Wizard)
Feat: (Selected) Dodge

Level 10 (Wizard)
Level 11 (Wizard)
Feat: (Wizard Bonus) Maximize Spell

Level 12 (Fighter)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Two Weapon Fighting
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Two Weapon Defense

Level 13 (Wizard)
Level 14 (Wizard)

Level 15 (Fighter)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Critical: Piercing Weapons

Level 16 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Weapon Specialization: Piercing Weapons

Level 17 (Fighter)

Level 18 (Fighter)
Feat: (Selected) Greater Two Weapon Fighting
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Mobility

Level 19 (Fighter)

Level 20 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Greater Weapon Focus: Piercing Weapons

From here, the usual (OC, PTWF, etc.).

I could swap out mobility for Combat Expertise although I feel like Precision for a build that relies on critical hits is the way to go.

Plan is to go tier 31 AP tier 5 Kensei, 21 AP for Wraith Shroud, 4 AP for Drow Arcane Fluidity, leaving the rest for Harper and EK depending on arcane fluidity etc.

[CThruTheEgo]

I think one of the advantages of the 12 wiz/8 fighter split is the use of plate armor. Swashbuckling with SWF will lock that out and I do not like the idea of being in light armor without evasion.

Could aways go 2 rogue on the bard version for evasion. Plenty of skills for trapping also. Would have good synergy on an int build. On the Count I get 81 PRR and 45 MRR. Not quite as much as a heavy plate wearer, but not far behind either, especially if you're not spending points in stalwart defender. Especially in divine crusader with the healing from sacred ground, defense and healing are excellent.

Here is what the build might look like; please post suggestions.

I would not bother with dodge and mobility on a heavy armor build. You'll hit dodge cap with just an item. Also, as mentioned above, spending some in stalwart defender would give more of an advantage to going with the fighter version, but I also understand that AP will be spread very thin even without it. Other than that, the build looks good.

[Caprice]

With your +4 DEX tome you could drop starting DEX to 13 and free up 2 build points, if you are willing to live with delaying ITWF until level 15 or later when the +4 kicks in. There isn't anything amazing you can do with the extra points but you could change to STR 8 CON 15 or bump up STR. You can fit in the feats by pushing the second Fighter level (currently @12) back to level 14 and taking IC:Piercing as your Fighter feat at level 14 (since you'll have BAB8 then) and switching your level 15 selected feat to ITWF (DEX17, BAB> req. 6). After that you are back on track for the rest of the build. Wraith comes a level earlier too (@13 vs 14) but that's not a big difference.

With Dodge & Mobility you don't need a Dodge item, which might be a reason to keep them. However Cthru's point is otherwise valid, and in particular if you plan to use an Epic Belt of Thoughtful Rememberance at cap then they are ultimately wasted feats. I'd forgotten that Two Weapon Defense grants PRR now. That's not bad. Still I would be tempted to swap out either Mobility or TWD for Empower so you have a better emergency Negative Energy Burst, since 12 Wizards levels is going to leave that a little anemic. If it's Dodge & Mobility that's going I don't have a good idea for the other feat. You don't need DCs or Spell pen, and once you have Empower that's all the useful metas. Maybe Sap for the no-save Daze? Ha ha.

I would be worried about your attack bonus; you can't stat drain what you can't hit. I'd at least factor in the 3 AP to get INT for attack from Harper. I'm assuming you'd want to go the full 12 AP minimum to get Know the Angles and INT for damage as well for enemies you can't drain. That leaves 12 for more goodies in Harper or EK or going into Stalwart.

[Saekee]

Could aways go 2 rogue on the bard version for evasion. Plenty of skills for trapping also. Would have good synergy on an int build. On the Count I get 81 PRR and 45 MRR. Not quite as much as a heavy plate wearer, but not far behind either, especially if you're not spending points in stalwart defender. Especially in divine crusader with the healing from sacred ground, defense and healing are excellent.



I would not bother with dodge and mobility on a heavy armor build. You'll hit dodge cap with just an item. Also, as mentioned above, spending some in stalwart defender would give more of an advantage to going with the fighter version, but I also understand that AP will be spread very thin even without it. Other than that, the build looks good.

Hi Cthru, that is a good point. The healing from DC will be wasted though on Wraith form, I believe. Rogue would also open up haste boost if the AP is there. Yes, need to replace those feats.

With your +4 DEX tome you could drop starting DEX to 13 and free up 2 build points, if you are willing to live with delaying ITWF until level 15 or later when the +4 kicks in. There isn't anything amazing you can do with the extra points but you could change to STR 8 CON 15 or bump up STR. You can fit in the feats by pushing the second Fighter level (currently @12) back to level 14 and taking IC:Piercing as your Fighter feat at level 14 (since you'll have BAB8 then) and switching your level 15 selected feat to ITWF (DEX17, BAB> req. 6). After that you are back on track for the rest of the build. Wraith comes a level earlier too (@13 vs 14) but that's not a big difference.

With Dodge & Mobility you don't need a Dodge item, which might be a reason to keep them. However Cthru's point is otherwise valid, and in particular if you plan to use an Epic Belt of Thoughtful Rememberance at cap then they are ultimately wasted feats. I'd forgotten that Two Weapon Defense grants PRR now. That's not bad. Still I would be tempted to swap out either Mobility or TWD for Empower so you have a better emergency Negative Energy Burst, since 12 Wizards levels is going to leave that a little anemic. If it's Dodge & Mobility that's going I don't have a good idea for the other feat. You don't need DCs or Spell pen, and once you have Empower that's all the useful metas. Maybe Sap for the no-save Daze? Ha ha.

I would be worried about your attack bonus; you can't stat drain what you can't hit. I'd at least factor in the 3 AP to get INT for attack from Harper. I'm assuming you'd want to go the full 12 AP minimum to get Know the Angles and INT for damage as well for enemies you can't drain. That leaves 12 for more goodies in Harper or EK or going into Stalwart.

hi Caprice, excellent suggestions. I like your idea for moving the Dex points downward and taking the ITWF later. I figure this build will mostly play as a caster in heroics. I love SAP for stealth builds but not sure how it would work on this guy. I have little experience playing a Pale Master (actually, none) so this will be a learning experience. I will take your advice and put in Empower. Perhaps I will take Combat Expertise as an option for swapping out precision if I need the boost to AC. Or I could just take toughness. The HP of pale masters can be a little low.

For general BAB once this build starts using melee, the Divine Crusader gives one a full BAB. Also, 12 wizard can self-cast Tensers, so that will be part of the self-buff rotation.

This build will use the INt to hit and damage in harper as well as know the angles.

[Caprice]

Good point on the attack bonuses, hitting won't be a problem once you can start applying those buffs.

Be wary of Combat Expertise on a caster; IIUC it increases the cooldowns of your spells (but not SLAs) by a factor of 3. I have never tried it on a caster for this reason. I would also be terrified if that tripled CD was multiplied by the Tenser's Transformation doubled spell cooldown, as that could make for some tremendously slow recasts. OTOH the wiki description says that it dispels all Rage effects, so maybe it would be situationally useful for clearing unwanted Rages (e.g. Madstone) - toggle it on and immediately off and you can cast again. I'd want to test that to see if it works as described though before committing to it.

[Saekee]

Good point on the attack bonuses, hitting won't be a problem once you can start applying those buffs.

Be wary of Combat Expertise on a caster; IIUC it increases the cooldowns of your spells (but not SLAs) by a factor of 3. I have never tried it on a caster for this reason. I would also be terrified if that tripled CD was multiplied by the Tenser's Transformation doubled spell cooldown, as that could make for some tremendously slow recasts. OTOH the wiki description says that it dispels all Rage effects, so maybe it would be situationally useful for clearing unwanted Rages (e.g. Madstone) - toggle it on and immediately off and you can cast again. I'd want to test that to see if it works as described though before committing to it.

I don't have the Mastone boots, but yes--that would be an issue with the possible need to do some quick burst healing. I will skip it then. Thanks for the hint there. That leaves an extra feat.
Weird--usually my builds struggle with lack of feats. Maybe I should fit in some basic ranged skills, like Quickdraw for shuriken throwing since I will have shuriken expertise anyway. Situational at best though. Or perhaps Sneak of Shadows past life feat.

[CThruTheEgo]

With Dodge & Mobility you don't need a Dodge item, which might be a reason to keep them. However Cthru's point is otherwise valid, and in particular if you plan to use an Epic Belt of Thoughtful Rememberance at cap then they are ultimately wasted feats.

This is kind of what I was thinking. There are several items with otherwise useful properties that also have dodge, so it will likely be slotted somewhere. However, this is a caster/melee hybrid which means gearing can get complicated. I don't know exactly how much casting you want to do or what gear is competing with the common dodge slots. So if you find you don't end up with dodge in your gear set, then maybe taking them is a good idea.

The healing from DC will be wasted though on Wraith form, I believe.

Forgot about undead healing. You're right.

[Caprice]

I don't have the Mastone boots, but yes--that would be an issue with the possible need to do some quick burst healing. I will skip it then. Thanks for the hint there. That leaves an extra feat.
Weird--usually my builds struggle with lack of feats. Maybe I should fit in some basic ranged skills, like Quickdraw for shuriken throwing since I will have shuriken expertise anyway. Situational at best though. Or perhaps Sneak of Shadows past life feat.

I like the Quickdraw idea. It's my favorite feat that I can almost never fit in. It gives you more effective time on your Action Boosts, and you'll be using at least Haste Boost on this character. QD would also make swapping mid combat less painful when you run into enemies that you didn't expect to be immune to drain. I feel like I end up banging my weapon set hotkeys a LOT on my non-QD characters because of the long delay and how the game doesn't always seem to take my command to switch seriously.

[Saekee]

Here would be the wraith bard with rogue. Was not sure to do 6 bard or 5 bard. The issue is the BAB qualifier for weapon skills; it does not get GSWF until level 21. So to decrease the pain, I think it might be good to go shadar-kai. I do not have the AP for racial cores anyway.
The advantage of the rogue splash over barb splash is trap skills, evasion, and the possibility of developing this into a stealthy killer, my playstyle.

I went with Caprice's suggestion and selected Quickdraw, although I could do mobility. Another option would be to do Sap; does Coup de Gras work on sapped enemies?

Should I do quicken or maximize?

The spell casting is really for self-buffing, although with INT as the main stat I would have access to Energy burst as an effective cc twist.

Nice thing here is that I could use the sacrificial dagger with Con poison for both Con damage AND level drain, so it will be an incredible debuffer. The other advantage of the sacrificial dagger is that epic elite mobs will resist much of the stat draining but they will not resist the level draining. I figure between the two, it is a nice double punch.

Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 04.23.01
DDO Character Planner Home Page

Level 28 True Neutral Shadar-Kai Female
(2 Rogue \ 12 Wizard \ 6 Bard \ 8 Epic) 
Hit Points: 386
Spell Points: 954 
BAB: 11\11\16\21
Fortitude: 11
Reflex: 21
Will: 13

                  Starting            Ending          Feat/Enhancement
Abilities        Base Stats         Base Stats         Modified Stats
(36 Point)       (Level 1)          (Level 28)           (Level 28)
Strength              8                 11                   11
Dexterity            12                 16                   16
Constitution         16                 21                   21
Intelligence         18                 28                   29
Wisdom                8                 11                   11
Charisma             13                 16                   16

Tomes Used
+1 Tome of Strength used at level 3
+1 Tome of Dexterity used at level 3
+1 Tome of Constitution used at level 3
+1 Tome of Intelligence used at level 3
+1 Tome of Wisdom used at level 3
+1 Tome of Charisma used at level 3
+2 Tome of Strength used at level 7
+2 Tome of Dexterity used at level 7
+2 Tome of Constitution used at level 7
+2 Tome of Intelligence used at level 7
+2 Tome of Wisdom used at level 7
+2 Tome of Charisma used at level 7
+3 Tome of Strength used at level 11
+3 Tome of Dexterity used at level 11
+3 Tome of Constitution used at level 11
+3 Tome of Intelligence used at level 11
+3 Tome of Wisdom used at level 11
+3 Tome of Charisma used at level 11
+4 Tome of Dexterity used at level 15
+4 Tome of Constitution used at level 15
+5 Tome of Constitution used at level 19

[B]    

Level 1 (Rogue)
Feat: (Past Life) Past Life: Monk
Feat: (Past Life) Past Life: Monk
Feat: (Past Life) Past Life: Ranger
Feat: (Past Life) Past Life: Ranger
Feat: (Past Life) Past Life: Rogue
Feat: (Selected) Single Weapon Fighting


Level 2 (Wizard)
Feat: (Wizard Bonus) Extend Spell


Level 3 (Wizard)
Feat: (Selected) Insightful Reflexes


Level 4 (Wizard)
Ability Raise: INT


Level 5 (Wizard)


Level 6 (Wizard)
Feat: (Wizard Bonus) Empower Spell
Feat: (Selected) Precision


Level 7 (Wizard)


Level 8 (Wizard)
Ability Raise: INT


Level 9 (Wizard)
Feat: (Selected) Dodge


Level 10 (Bard)


Level 11 (Bard)


Level 12 (Bard)
Ability Raise: INT
Feat: (Selected) Improved Single Weapon Fighting


Level 13 (Wizard)


Level 14 (Wizard)
Feat: (Wizard Bonus) Quicken Spell


Level 15 (Wizard)
Feat: (Selected) Quick Draw


Level 16 (Wizard)
Ability Raise: INT


Level 17 (Bard)


Level 18 (Bard)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Critical: Piercing Weapons


Level 19 (Bard)


Level 20 (Rogue)
Ability Raise: INT


Level 21 (Epic)
Feat: (Selected) Greater Single Weapon Fighting


Level 22 (Epic)


Level 23 (Epic)


Level 24 (Epic)
Ability Raise: INT
Feat: (Selected) Epic: Overwhelming Critical


Level 25 (Epic)


Level 26 (Epic)
Feat: (Epic Destiny) Epic Destiny: Tactician


Level 27 (Epic)
Feat: (Selected) Epic: Watchful Eye


Level 28 (Epic)
Ability Raise: INT

[Haphazarduk]

I ran a wraith con draining build for a while. It felt ok in heroics but never got going well enough to feel like Epics were justifiable. Did it work for you?

I'm going to try another, more general, crit fishing build soon but would be interested in your thoughts (if you can still remember!).

Hap

[Saekee]

I ran a wraith con draining build for a while. It felt ok in heroics but never got going well enough to feel like Epics were justifiable. Did it work for you?

I'm going to try another, more general, crit fishing build soon but would be interested in your thoughts (if you can still remember!).

Hap

I ran a level draining build like this and it worked well against mobs that could be level drained. Their numbers are diminishing though—undead, wf, champs etc make stuff less and less effective.

It was a henshin wraith, level drain LCEWS, SWF void strike with oathblade. Fleshies fell FAST.

epic mobs recovery lost stats fast & heroic mobs die too fast...