Best CON drain epic melee?

[Saekee]

Update 1/17/2015: see post #13. Both weapon styles are almost identical but further responses put SWF slightly ahead and works more synergistically with the level splits.


Due to this patch:
The chance for epic monsters to ignore ability score damage has been reduced from 90% down to 33% on Epic Hard and 50% on Epic Elite. This chance remains zero percent on Epic Casual and Epic Normal.

This has made me wonder if a stat-draining melee is viable (yet another flavor build). I was thinking about what gear and enhancements drain CON (I know that rogues and ninjas can sap a little STR on sneak attacks but that is less interesting than CON draining).

Enhancements:

• Shroud of Wraith, PM- 1d6 on critical melee hits
• Barbarian Ravager Cruel cut - 3d6 on damage; ? cooldown
• Rogue heartseeker poison, 1d6 on crit, 6 sec cooldown

Epic Destinies
- primal avatar of nature does a small amount

Gear

• Wounding of puncturing on a weapon with a high crit range, like a rapier
• epic Sting (short sword with wounding of puncturing plus another 1d4 on critical hits) plus nice base damage
• Greater Vulkoor's Poison - 2-10 Con on vorpal 'with save' (which means useless? May land if a FORT save if it gets help from other sources)

Anything else that is significant? (There are weapons with 'wounding' on them, Cormyrian prefixes and suffixes, etc. Looking for something that is 'standout.') So far the obvious build would be a TWF shroud of wraith wielding WoP (or grindy two eStings) with tier 5 kensei (so 12 wiz/8 fighter) in Divine Crusader OR wraith form with Barb splash.
This is looking a lot like my thoughts on the best neg level drainer.

[CThruTheEgo]

[*]epic Sting (short sword with wounding of puncturing plus another 1d4 on critical hits) plus nice base damage

Swashbuckler stance adds +1 to the threat range of shortsword (+2 with imp crit). Then there's exploit weakness which means more crits. So 12wiz/5bard/2barb +1 level in any of those (bard 6 grants 1 more doublestrike from swashbuckler core 3), run in divine crusader for more crit range and doublestrike from zeal of the righteous. Altogether, that might beat a twf option.

[Saekee]

Swashbuckler stance adds +1 to the threat range of shortsword (+2 with imp crit). Then there's exploit weakness which means more crits. So 12wiz/5bard/2barb +1 level in any of those (bard 6 grants 1 more doublestrike from swashbuckler core 3), run in divine crusader for more crit range and doublestrike from zeal of the righteous. Altogether, that might beat a twf option.

hi CThruTheEgo, that sounds very exciting--do you know the cooldown of Cruel cut? Also, I remember someone once making the calculations for exploit weakness as a bonus to critical threat range--do you remember the actual percentage? Then I can calculate it out.

The basic TWF option is easier to make:
On 20 attacks, 19 hits plus with a WoP rapier with IC: Piercing, Tier 5 Kensei and in DC (11-20 crit range) means 10 critical hits for 2d6 CON (Puncturing plus Wraith form, averages out to 7) plus 19 (for basic wounding)= 89 CON damage mainhand hit total.
Add 10% doublestrike and PTWF for another 5= 102.35
Offhand gets .8 plus 10% PTWF for .88; 88x.89=78.32 offhand CON damage. In total, this means one gets 180/20 attacks or about 9 CON damage per hit.

[ddorimble]

Swashbuckler stance adds +1 to the threat range of shortsword (+2 with imp crit). Then there's exploit weakness which means more crits. So 12wiz/5bard/2barb +1 level in any of those (bard 6 grants 1 more doublestrike from swashbuckler core 3), run in divine crusader for more crit range and doublestrike from zeal of the righteous. Altogether, that might beat a twf option.

Yeah, something with a 12 Wiz / 3 Bard base is definitely the way to go in my opinion. I'm not sure I'd care too much about Barb...when I did this, I was 12 Wiz / 4 Bard / 4 Rogue...Killer is a wicked expensive Enhancement to get, but when you get it fired up to +20% Doublestrike and you end up at 60+% Doublestrike, things get pretty nasty...and you can pick up Heartseeker Poison along the way. Stand in a Cloudkill for big fights for another slowly ticking away 1-2 Con damage.

[Saekee]

Yeah, something with a 12 Wiz / 3 Bard base is definitely the way to go in my opinion. I'm not sure I'd care too much about Barb...when I did this, I was 12 Wiz / 4 Bard / 4 Rogue...Killer is a wicked expensive Enhancement to get, but when you get it fired up to +20% Doublestrike and you end up at 60+% Doublestrike, things get pretty nasty...and you can pick up Heartseeker Poison along the way.

It could be but I think it really comes down to the cooldown of cruel cut. PSWF is great for vorpal effects but I am not so sure it can catch up with TWF for weapon effects like WoP.

[ddorimble]

It could be but I think it really comes down to the cooldown of cruel cut. PSWF is great for vorpal effects but I am not so sure it can catch up with TWF for weapon effects like WoP.

If you want Keen Edge as mentioned in your earlier math post, that requires 8 Fighter, so 12 Wiz / 8 Fighter, so no Barbarian there. Swashbuckler is the poor mans Keen Edge, heh...it really depends on the weapons you'll use. It doesn't do anything to enable more Con-draininess on Rapiers, those just go from x2 to x3, but it would beef up Epic Sting. Like you said, I guess it depends on the cooldowns...if Cruel Cut sucks, maybe 12 Wiz / 8 Fighter is the way to go. Does Keen Edge ultimately end up giving you two crit range? I've never taken it...there's probably no Con-drainy clicky on any class that could make up for that...not to mention crit range is always useful, and Con drain clicky often goes useless (orange/red nameds).

[gwonbush]

Cruel Cut is a barbarian attack that isn't Supreme Cleave. As such, it has a terrible cooldown (30 seconds).

[CThruTheEgo]

hi CThruTheEgo, that sounds very exciting--do you know the cooldown of Cruel cut? Also, I remember someone once making the calculations for exploit weakness as a bonus to critical threat range--do you remember the actual percentage? Then I can calculate it out.

I don't know the cooldown of cruel cut. I also do not know the math of exploit weakness. I remember seeing it but didn't follow it all. I estimate it to be somewhere between 10-20% more crits. I know the Count crits at least half the time, but that includes the bonus from divine crusader as well.

[gwonbush]

Depending on your crit range, Exploit weakness ranges from slightly better to slightly worse than a +1 increase to your crit range (+2 with IC).

[legendkilleroll]

Sacrificial dagger from ID can come with virulent constitution poison, neg levels too and ofc can be used as swashbuckler.

[Saekee]

If you want Keen Edge as mentioned in your earlier math post, that requires 8 Fighter, so 12 Wiz / 8 Fighter, so no Barbarian there. Swashbuckler is the poor mans Keen Edge, heh...it really depends on the weapons you'll use. It doesn't do anything to enable more Con-draininess on Rapiers, those just go from x2 to x3, but it would beef up Epic Sting. Like you said, I guess it depends on the cooldowns...if Cruel Cut sucks, maybe 12 Wiz / 8 Fighter is the way to go. Does Keen Edge ultimately end up giving you two crit range? I've never taken it...there's probably no Con-drainy clicky on any class that could make up for that...not to mention crit range is always useful, and Con drain clicky often goes useless (orange/red nameds).

hi ddorimble, thx, I agree with you here. Plus clickies would run out like you say even if they existed (and would have a lousy DC--I have had some poison ones)

Cruel Cut is a barbarian attack that isn't Supreme Cleave. As such, it has a terrible cooldown (30 seconds).

hi Gwonbush, thx for this. That means we can calculate it at best once in a TWF's 20 attack sequence for comparison.

I don't know the cooldown of cruel cut. I also do not know the math of exploit weakness. I remember seeing it but didn't follow it all. I estimate it to be somewhere between 10-20% more crits. I know the Count crits at least half the time, but that includes the bonus from divine crusader as well.

yup that seems like my memory too--around 15% ish

Depending on your crit range, Exploit weakness ranges from slightly better to slightly worse than a +1 increase to your crit range (+2 with IC).

Maybe I will just assume +1 to crit range then

Sacrificial dagger from ID can come with virulent constitution poison, neg levels too and ofc can be used as swashbuckler.

Veery good point--have you seen our thread on level draining? it is here: https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...ic-melee-build. that would make a nice combo weapon for both effects.

[Caprice]

There was a time in my life when I might have been able to figure out Expose Weakness mathematically to get an exact number, but my brain has gone to mush since. I settled for running a simulation on 10 million attacks to see how Expose Weakness affects critical rates over that many, which should be large enough to approach specific numbers. I assumed Improved Critical in all cases, so that an Expose Weakness stack adds +10% chance to crit. What I found was that for each of the following "base" critical chances, the observed chance goes to:

• 20% -> 33.8%
• 30% -> 40.9%
• 40% -> 48.4%
• 50% -> 56.4%

By "base" I mean including Swashbuckling and Improved Critical already, not the vanilla weapon critical threat range.

[Saekee]

Swashbuckler stance adds +1 to the threat range of shortsword (+2 with imp crit). Then there's exploit weakness which means more crits. So 12wiz/5bard/2barb +1 level in any of those (bard 6 grants 1 more doublestrike from swashbuckler core 3), run in divine crusader for more crit range and doublestrike from zeal of the righteous. Altogether, that might beat a twf option.

There was a time in my life when I might have been able to figure out Expose Weakness mathematically to get an exact number, but my brain has gone to mush since. I settled for running a simulation on 10 million attacks to see how Expose Weakness affects critical rates over that many, which should be large enough to approach specific numbers. I assumed Improved Critical in all cases, so that an Expose Weakness stack adds +10% chance to crit. What I found was that for each of the following "base" critical chances, the observed chance goes to:

• 20% -> 33.8%
• 30% -> 40.9%
• 40% -> 48.4%
• 50% -> 56.4%

By "base" I mean including Swashbuckling and Improved Critical already, not the vanilla weapon critical threat range.

Thanks Caprice! I will assume, then, the +10% crit chance and calculate CThru's suggestion in relationship to the 12 wraith/8 fighter option.

SWF
12 wizard/6 bard/2 barbarian using Epic Sting in Divine Crusader
Due to bard enhancements, eSting will have a crit range of 13-20 in combination with DC. This will be increased below for Exploit Weakness
26 attacks GSWF (1.3% attack speed) over 20 mainhand attacks from TWF
I will assume 25% doublestrike which on a Swash should be very achievable. Zeal of the Righteous is an added bonus so I will not calculate it (the TWF version is also in DC although SWF benefits far more from doublestrike)
On 26 attacks, 40% will critically hit (10.4) plus 10% for 11.44 (rounding to 11.5) critical hits. A crit deals 1d6 CON (wraith), 1d6 CON (sword) +1d4 CON (sword again). This averages to 9.5 CON damage x 11.5 or 109.25 CON damage from critical hits. Then there is the 26 CON damage from general Wounding for a total of 135.25. Finally, we can factor in the doublestrike of 25% which would total 169 CON damage. Compared to TWF, we would divide it by 20, so that comes to 8.45 or 8.5. This does not include Cruel Cut, a single attack that will hit for another 3d6 damage and may also doublestrike (?). Cruel cut, divided out over 26 attacks (due to long cooldown), would add another 10.5 CON damage over 26 attacks, so it would make the 169 increase to 179.5 and make it to 9 CON damage when compared to TWF's attack speed.

TWF
Wraith/tier5 Kensei (12 Wiz/8 Fighter dual wielding WoP rapiers in DC):
On 20 attacks, 19 hits plus with a WoP rapier with IC: Piercing, Tier 5 Kensei and in DC (11-20 crit range) means 10 critical hits for 2d6 CON (Puncturing plus Wraith form, averages out to 7) plus 19 (for basic wounding)= 89 CON damage mainhand hit total.
Add 10% doublestrike and PTWF for another 5= 102.35
Offhand gets .8 plus 10% PTWF for .88; 88x.89=78.32 offhand CON damage. In total, this means one gets 180/20 attacks or about 9 CON damage per hit.

So the two come out even. Did I make a mistake anywhere? It is Cruel Cut that makes an interesting difference with the above numbers--the cooldown may make it stronger due to the pauses in between encounters (since that time is overcome running up to the next person, or rather, 'floating'). It is concentrated on a single attack, so it would be exceptional against the first mob hit in a group attack and then cause the SWF version to slightly lag behind while on cooldown.
Also, if the doublestrike increase is high enough than SWF would be a little stronger, such as in the use of Divine Zeal or bursts from Swash tree.

However, they seem to be about equal! DRAIN THAT CON!

[CThruTheEgo]

So the two come out even. Did I make a mistake anywhere?

The attack speed bonus from swf affects everything. So a more precise calculation would assume 20 attacks for swf, multiply that result by all sources of doublestrike including gear, feats, enhancements, EDs, etc. (for both swf and twf), and then multiply the result by 1.3 for swf. Based on that alone, swf will definitely pull ahead, but by how much is the question.

It's difficult to calculate the exact doublestrike bonus from zeal of the righteous since it decays over time. Like Caprice, there was a time when I could have done such math. Use it or lose it I guess. But assuming you keep it on cooldown, then there would be a definite average doublestrike that it adds.

EDIT: Base doublestrike for each would be:

SWF:
2 swashbuckler cores
15 legendary shield mastery (10 from swashbuckler if no shield)
5 ptwf
10 celestial fervor (gain 1 doublestrike on crit, easy to keep up on a build with a high crit rate, does not stack with items)
32 total (27 if not using a shield)

TWF:
5 ptwf
10 celestial fervor
15 total

Each could potentially have 1-4 more from eldritch knight depending on how enhancements are spent, but this shouldn't make too much of a difference. 1 is easy and cheap since it's the first core, but I wouldn't count on the other 3.

EDIT EDIT: Also, since Caprice did a simulation based on millions of trials, I would be using the 48.4% crit chance from that, not 50%. again, a minor difference, but since the result is close already, these will determine which one is actually higher.

And based off of the rough calculations I just did, which may or may not be correct, zeal adds an average of 4.72 doublestrike.

[Saekee]

The attack speed bonus from swf affects everything. So a more precise calculation would assume 20 attacks for swf, multiply that result by all sources of doublestrike including gear, feats, enhancements, EDs, etc. (for both swf and twf), and then multiply the result by 1.3 for swf. Based on that alone, swf will definitely pull ahead, but by how much is the question.

It's difficult to calculate the exact doublestrike bonus from zeal of the righteous since it decays over time. Like Caprice, there was a time when I could have done such math. Use it or lose it I guess. But assuming you keep it on cooldown, then there would be a definite average doublestrike that it adds.

EDIT: Base doublestrike for each would be:

SWF:
2 swashbuckler cores
15 legendary shield mastery (10 from swashbuckler if no shield)
5 ptwf
10 celestial fervor (gain 1 doublestrike on crit, easy to keep up on a build with a high crit rate, does not stack with items)
32 total (27 if not using a shield)

TWF:
5 ptwf
10 celestial fervor
15 total

Each could potentially have 1-4 more from eldritch knight depending on how enhancements are spent, but this shouldn't make too much of a difference. 1 is easy and cheap since it's the first core, but I wouldn't count on the other 3.

EDIT EDIT: Also, since Caprice did a simulation based on millions of trials, I would be using the 48.4% crit chance from that, not 50%. again, a minor difference, but since the result is close already, these will determine which one is actually higher.

And based off of the rough calculations I just did, which may or may not be correct, zeal adds an average of 4.72 doublestrike.

hi Cthru, thanks for your thoughts. I agree that the numbers put SWF ahead, even if it is marginal. Coup de Gras requires a fortitude save so the CON draining really sets it up. Plus, it is easier to get the INT to damage from its tree--lots of synergy between bard and wizards. The downside is the need for a very rare weapon to really excel but then, even with a crafted WoP rapier in the short term, it would function well. I can see this working in heroics with a vampiric fury short sword or something similar.

I am curious what you or anyone else would consider a practical approach at this point. I would like to see this build in at least medium armor if possible, mithral twilight and take ASF enhancements (maybe go INT with Drow, and take some AP from EK tree) to remove spell failure. That way it maximizes PRR and MRR while boasting displacement, perma-incorporeality and a high AC along with all the undead resistances from Wraith form. Supreme Cleave's HP cost is nothing to a Pale Master also. I haven't played a wizard very much and am completely ignorant about armored wizards, pale masters, etc.

[Saekee]

Ok just to add: saw this armor, Shadowmail

[FestusHood]

Most mobs don't have high con scores, even if they have large amounts of hit points.

A few months ago i was running a ravager and i remember hitting mobs in the dreaming dark series with cruel cut and making them helpless about 50% of the time. This suggests that they had total con scores of less than 20 despite having over 3000 hit points.

What i think you will find with con drain is that it will fairly quickly make a monster helpless, then once that wears off, have no noticeable effect after. I have never been able to make a monster helpless twice with con drain.

[CThruTheEgo]

I am curious what you or anyone else would consider a practical approach at this point. I would like to see this build in at least medium armor if possible, mithral twilight and take ASF enhancements (maybe go INT with Drow, and take some AP from EK tree) to remove spell failure. That way it maximizes PRR and MRR while boasting displacement, perma-incorporeality and a high AC along with all the undead resistances from Wraith form. Supreme Cleave's HP cost is nothing to a Pale Master also. I haven't played a wizard very much and am completely ignorant about armored wizards, pale masters, etc.

You can get up to -20% ASF from eldritch knight, but have to spend up to 23 AP to get it all, so meh.

Supreme cleave requires barb level 3, so you either give that up or drop to bard 5 for it. You also have the cleave from eldritch knight and probably enough feats to fit cleave/great cleave, so you may not need supreme cleave at all.

[Firewall]

Some thing to note: Stat damage is multiplied by helplessness. When a monster is helpless i see -3 STR damage from my Ninja Spy tier5 Crippling Strike with every shuriken attack and -4 STR with No Mercy and Sense Weakness active.

Also interesting: If you throw spelltouched shuriken all the random Stat damage from one attack animation is the same. So if the first attack applies -1 CON damage all the procs from Shuriken Expertise, Ninja II, Doublestrike/10k Stars also apply -1 CON damage. This doubles if the monster is helpless (Shiradi Nerve Venom, Pin, Whistler). So with shuriken and a high proc rate you can drain one stat really fast. You only need a spelltouched shuriken with a permanent CON damage on it (or a crafted Wounding of Puncturing would be even better).

[Saekee]

Most mobs don't have high con scores, even if they have large amounts of hit points.

A few months ago i was running a ravager and i remember hitting mobs in the dreaming dark series with cruel cut and making them helpless about 50% of the time. This suggests that they had total con scores of less than 20 despite having over 3000 hit points.

What i think you will find with con drain is that it will fairly quickly make a monster helpless, then once that wears off, have no noticeable effect after. I have never been able to make a monster helpless twice with con drain.

Hi Festishood, thanks for your thoughts. I have found also that they recover quickly. The SWF version would take tier 5 in Swash for CDG which requires a Fort save, and hence should land easily. I figure to twist sense weakness as well.

You can get up to -20% ASF from eldritch knight, but have to spend up to 23 AP to get it all, so meh.

Supreme cleave requires barb level 3, so you either give that up or drop to bard 5 for it. You also have the cleave from eldritch knight and probably enough feats to fit cleave/great cleave, so you may not need supreme cleave at all.

I have the EK cleave right now and it is very SP costly. I figure on a Pale Master with an aura running that it would be easier to give up 10hp. I think the Barb trees also have some great tier 3 DPS like ear smash.

I can also go Drow for max INT and Arcane fluidity of another 15%. I think a crafted mithral plate with Twilight and the Drow bonus might come to ASG of 0? Or maybe hunt for Mithral plate with a blue slot for the augment? It may be worth taking the heavy armor proficiency and stacking up on PRR and MRR (of which I have 0 experience--my main has been an armed monk or splash.

Some thing to note: Stat damage is multiplied by helplessness. When a monster is helpless i see -3 STR damage from my Ninja Spy tier5 Crippling Strike with every shuriken attack and -4 STR with No Mercy and Sense Weakness active.

Also interesting: If you throw spelltouched shuriken all the random Stat damage from one attack animation is the same. So if the first attack applies -1 CON damage all the procs from Shuriken Expertise, Ninja II, Doublestrike/10k Stars also apply -1 CON damage. This doubles if the monster is helpless (Shiradi Nerve Venom, Pin, Whistler). So with shuriken and a high proc rate you can drain one stat really fast. You only need a spelltouched shuriken with a permanent CON damage on it (or a crafted Wounding of Puncturing would be even better).

That could also be interesting, Firewall, if one could pull a spelltouched with both wounding and Life Stealing. I assume one cannot get puncturing and life stealing (or all 3). Ranged stuff has so much going for it, especially with Pin etc. like you mention. I just don't like running backwards so much--just a playstyle thing.
Have you tried a WoP crafted shuriken? Am curious what your results might be. I feel like one needs a LOT of WoP, especially the latter, to overcome EE mob's 33% resistance.