DeathTitan Ice Druid

[Blackheartox]

You get light armor prof from eldritch, yes i have 130 prr, and actually more when i use cookies and bard bot which i can count as perma.
You dont need to tell me what my character screen says, i know that better then you.

Im just suggesting ways to have proper single target dps, dont need to be offensive.
Which you clearly want to do for whatever reason.
I have said to you in game several times that druid lacks dps, which cannot be changed on a pure druid.
Yes i know you love druid caster all good, but try to be objective.

What you count as "perfect ap setup" can be looked at from very different perspectives.

How can you say that a pure druid is better then a lets say 15 druid 4 soul 1 wiz?
Or a 18 druid 1 monk 1 sorc for example focusing on dodge instead harmor?
Or a 18 druid 1 fighter 1 sorc?
Have you played any of those?
I played a pure druid multiple times and its dps is sub par and incredibly weak compared to other casters.
While being one of best cc classes, it is one of weakest dps classes if caster currently.
Its less then fsoul, less then cleric, around the same as wizzard and absurdly less compared so sorc.
And playing in shiradi with no synergy with shiradi procs is a bit silly

The most simple example would be your skill point expanditure where you dont spend skill points into perform as a shiradi main destiny druid.
That alone tells alot about how correctly you recognize shiradi builds

[Michele]

casting niac's cold ray doesn't proc Hoarfrost if the mobs succeed the reflex save (and they will always save my niac's cold ray).
I never said that I killed epic elite wizard king in 2 hits.
About the rest: I explained everything else in my previous message.
When there are lots of enemies I don't spread cold dots all over around because it's not spell efficient: it's better to find to find some kind of corridor or a door and turn around the corner by going out of enemies sight; at this point you cast all your persistent area of effect spells (earthquake+icestorm+sov+solid fog) at that corner and the enemies (archers and casters) have to pass through your area of effect spells to reach you because they always follow you. Once they are all well packed together, then cast a nice energy burst (remember to cast solid fog, otherwise they will evade your energy burst) and they are all dead. This all should happen within the 30 second of the duration of your earthquake/icestorm.
As you can see, hoarfrost ability would be very situational: I'm not like a water savant sorcerer who spams polar ray + otiluke's freezing sphere + frost lance + niac's cold ray.

I'm lazy: can someone make a test for me? create a druid with 1 sorcerer level and cast creeping cold spell. do you at least read in the combat log that it is cast with +1 caster level? (for example a druid 3/sorcerer 1 casts creeping cold and reads in the combat log "cast creeping cold at level 4"). If nothing appears in the combat log, that means that druid cold spells are not affected by savant tree.
this is the link of the cold spells affected by water savant enhancements.
Do you see creeping cold proccing hoarfrost ability?

I am going to preface this by saying that I would recommend staying pure Druid myself, as I have been running around on a splashed Druid recently and regret it somewhat. However I think that dealing with the Hoarfrost stacks might be less troublesome than you think. You can take Niac's Polar Ray as Sorceror spell choice and cast that during your 12 second "downtime" between DoTs to maintain Hoarfrost. Sure you have 20-35% ASF and will get a number of failures, but with a 4 SP cost (and 1.5 second CD) it would be fairly trivial to use it to keep up the Hoarfrost stacks when you need something to fill the gap. You really only need to do that on bosses anyway, since in any situation where there are lots of enemies you'll be spreading the Cold DoTs around, right? So think of it as another clickie you need to use on boss fights.

There aren't that many quests with Liches so I do not consider losing 2 CL on Sunbeam (1 from the splash and 1 from Water Savant I; -3 CLs if you go 18/1/1) as killing the build. Elsewhere you've said that you kill EE WizKing in 2 spellcasts; at worst having to cast a 3rd spell doesn't seem like the end of the world to me. YMMV of course.

I wouldn't do the splash myself, but it would boost the spellpower for your most common damage sources.

[Caprice]

Are you sure that cold spells only proc Hoarfrost on successful hit? The description says "on cast". I do not know how the actual coding goes, I just have a vague recollection that I've missed enemies with spells other Savants (e.g. Scorch that was mistargeted, or on Fire immune mobs) and had those equivalent buffs proc sometime in the past.

The descriptions on the wiki for Greater Creeping Cold and Creeping Cold also describe those as an "Evocation (Cold spells)", the same as everything on the other list. In fact no Druid spells are listed at all, and the Druid icon is missing for every spell Druids can cast that is on that list already (e.g. Resist Energy) despite other Divine casters being listed, which makes me think that it was just never updated to include Druids at all. As you point out we should really test this before coming to any conclusions.

I will throw together an Iconic tonight and test the caster level on GCC and the Hoarfrost procs (e.g. does GCC proc it at all, does Niac on Saves) and report back, if no one beats me to it.

[Blackheartox]

Testing currently, will add pscreens with a iconic sun elf sorc druid.
Print screen at end, testing resulting into positive feedback.
First of all the level of druid spells is affected by sorc cores, 2nd of all niacs will produce a stack of hoartfrost even on a failed save /i knew this but added to screenie as well.
Before i enterd quest the levels of spells was at 17 /was in winter season both tries with and wout sorc so its pretty accurate test.
Basically if there was a proper way to bypass the harmor spell failure you could use the niacs sla and niacs from 1 sorc level very cheaply as a stack implementer.

Here you can see caster levels being affected by sorc core



Here you can see how creeping cold alone increases heartfrost stacks





And here how a failed save niacs also gives the stacks




Another thing to note, freezing spray and cold breath also give stacks

[Caprice]

Great testing Blackheartox, thank you for doing it.

[Michele]

thank you very much for these tests

Testing currently, will add pscreens with a iconic sun elf sorc druid.
Print screen at end, testing resulting into positive feedback.
First of all the level of druid spells is affected by sorc cores, 2nd of all niacs will produce a stack of hoartfrost even on a failed save /i knew this but added to screenie as well.
Before i enterd quest the levels of spells was at 17 /was in winter season both tries with and wout sorc so its pretty accurate test.
Basically if there was a proper way to bypass the harmor spell failure you could use the niacs sla and niacs from 1 sorc level very cheaply as a stack implementer.

Another thing to note, freezing spray and cold breath also give stacks

[Michele]

Careful because the combat log could give you false caster levels.

I made another test: I went in draconic epic destiny, restet season's herald enhancements and selected blue dragon spell knowledge (+3 caster and maximum caster levels with electric spells), the combat log says that I'm casting call lightning at level 23 and I'm dealing about 580 damage.

Then I switched to shadowdancer and with the same spell power I was dealing about 580 damage.

This demonstrate that the combat log should never be trusted.
I still don't trust that the first core of water savant increase creeping cold caster level.

Another test that could be done would be creating an iconic air savant sorc 6 / druid 5 and cast call lightning and see if "with the same spell power" you feel 3 more caster levels.

[Blackheartox]

Careful because the combat log could give you false caster levels.

I made another test: I went in draconic epic destiny, restet season's herald enhancements and selected blue dragon spell knowledge (+3 caster and maximum caster levels with electric spells), the combat log says that I'm casting call lightning at level 23 and I'm dealing about 580 damage.

Then I switched to shadowdancer and with the same spell power I was dealing about 580 damage.

This demonstrate that the combat log should never be trusted.
I still don't trust that the first core of water savant increase creeping cold caster level.

Another test that could be done would be creating an iconic air savant sorc 6 / druid 5 and cast call lightning and see if "with the same spell power" you feel 3 more caster levels.

Well since the base level was lower you could notice the change in damage between no core and core, which i noticed.
Works, you can test on that split, but im confident it works.
I can test tho if you really dont believe after some xp session tonight on alt

[Blackheartox]

Like promised test showed that it indeed works and increases caster levels and dps of druid.
Print screens will provide proof but i will explain a couple simple things first at each screenie.

First this is split i used:



2nd in this screenie i used action spellpower boost because cores of sorc give 30 spellpower for elec to be as close as possible, best would had been if i would use a 48 elec weapon but since i did this on thelanis due to no character slot on cannith the difference in spellpower is around 12 spellpower in sorc and no sorc, so action boost was used to come as close to possible to the same spellpower with the resources i had.




This is the 2nd print screen which clearly shows the increased damage mainly gained from casting call light at a higher caster level, also note no action boost and same season.
The difference in spellpower would not result in a such a big increase in damage, if calculated it is clear indeed how sorc cores increase druid spell caster level and thus damage.



I have no idea tho why the caster level doesnt show in first pscreen, i used in sucesion first the spell then the sla and tested multiple times with reset and came to the same conclusion.

You can go ahead and plan onward what you think is better, but sorc split would clearly give you more dps in chosen spell element.
IF you wish to splash do so, if no no, but due to test it would be optimal if you splashed.
Now how much you want to splash depends on your personal preferences.
You can stay pure, idc, but i wanted to give solid proof that you would gain a bit more dps with splash, dont hate me since im a test freak and love helping people improve builds if i see space for improvement.
Again dont take this personal, if you were offended i need to say my attempt was not to do so, but to provide help on how to improve your build.
Cheers

[Michele]

Lol I don't hate anyone and thanks for the tests

I only tested draconic incarnation and it doesn't increase the maximum caster level of spells.

This game is so much bugged that I'm scared to splash my druid.
Also I Will not splash my druid for all the other reasons I mentioned in my previous messages.

There are other spells I want to test in the future: word of balance spell resistance, creeping doom that also don't have a level cap, ice flowers (now that I use solid fog to help its dc and capstone that increase maximum caster level by 2).

Now for example I selected again the druid capstone and autumnal sussurs and sacrificed 2 spell power points of human traditionalist caster because I think I still need a Little more dc.

Yesterday at level 26 I soloed what goes up EE, I was doing a video but a caster cast flesh to Stone on me, I rolled 1 and I died lol.
I used a spirit cake but the video was compromised... I'll repeat it when I'll be level 28.
Also those pillars went down a bit slow, but at level 20 they should go down quicker.
Also I should use shrines more wisely.

Like promised test showed that it indeed works and increases caster levels and dps of druid.
Print screens will provide proof but i will explain a couple simple things first at each screenie.

First this is split i used:



2nd in this screenie i used action spellpower boost because cores of sorc give 30 spellpower for elec to be as close as possible, best would had been if i would use a 48 elec weapon but since i did this on thelanis due to no character slot on cannith the difference in spellpower is around 12 spellpower in sorc and no sorc, so action boost was used to come as close to possible to the same spellpower with the resources i had.




This is the 2nd print screen which clearly shows the increased damage mainly gained from casting call light at a higher caster level, also note no action boost and same season.
The difference in spellpower would not result in a such a big increase in damage, if calculated it is clear indeed how sorc cores increase druid spell caster level and thus damage.



I have no idea tho why the caster level doesnt show in first pscreen, i used in sucesion first the spell then the sla and tested multiple times with reset and came to the same conclusion.

You can go ahead and plan onward what you think is better, but sorc split would clearly give you more dps in chosen spell element.
IF you wish to splash do so, if no no, but due to test it would be optimal if you splashed.
Now how much you want to splash depends on your personal preferences.
You can stay pure, idc, but i wanted to give solid proof that you would gain a bit more dps with splash, dont hate me since im a test freak and love helping people improve builds if i see space for improvement.
Again dont take this personal, if you were offended i need to say my attempt was not to do so, but to provide help on how to improve your build.
Cheers

[Michele]

Today I tested magister epic destiny to see if my call lightning spell (evocation) gets +3 caster levels and maximum caster levels thanks to "master of evocation" ability and these are the results:

274 - 263
253 - 265
263 - 278
270 - 270
280 - 255
278 - 267
272 - 278
272 - 284
259 - 265
265 - 270
270 - 282
270 - 234
272 - 248
263 - 259
274 - 286
257 - 270
265 - 278
282 - 284
280 - 280
-----------
269 - 270 average

In the left column the damage rolls in magister epic destiny with master of evocation ability, while in the rigth column the damage rolls in shadowdancer epic destiny. the spell power was the same in both destinies (I reset season's herald enhancement tree and removed all equipment).

This demonstrate that draconic and magister epic destiny abilities don't increase the maximum caster levels of druid spells.

Please Turbine, at least change the description specifying "arcane spells" in "master of evocation" and "dragon spell knowledge" abilities: if you write "lightning spells" and "evocation spells" I could think that those abilities work also for druid "call lightning" spell (because it's a lightning spell and an evocation spell), but it's false because they don't affect call lightning.

[Sehenry03]

Well this could simply be a bug. Rather then just assume druids were left out you might bug report it instead.

[Michele]

Well this could simply be a bug. Rather then just assume druids were left out you might bug report it instead.

Of course I reported the bug.

I wrote that test here only to warn other druid players about the magister and draconic epic destinies.

[Michele]

I would very much like to see a video of that if you don't mind. Thanks!

Video of the thrill of the hunt made today.

Sorry I can't beat that boss in 1 minute yet, because he has insanely high reflexes.

I killed the boss in 2 minutes at level 27, instead of 3 minutes of my previous video. (he evaded 50% of my call lightnings even by twisting magister evocation agumentation, and my call lightning doesn't have heighten spell).

This weekend I did the videos of these packs and added their links to the build: menace of the underdark, high road, druids, wheelon.

About the video of wgu that you asked me: let me take epic completionist first (I only need 2 more epic past lives) so I can twist endless faith and do that quest with more spell points (I soloed that quest at level 27 but I died once due to flesh to stone and I spent 4 mnemonic potions... I can do better).

[Michele]

Thats why now if you compare lets say a sorc and druid sorc outperforms a druid in any quest.

A druid casts only 1 greater creeping cold and wait 12 seconds to see 1 enemy dead.

A sorcerer casts more then 1 spell to see a mob dead in less time.

A sorcerer spends a lot more spell points then a druid, to kill mobs a few seconda faster.

For me a druid outperforms a sorcerer because is more spell points efficient.

For someone else a sorcerer outperforms a druid because it can kill mobs a few seconds faster.

I think it's only a matter of play style.

[Sehenry03]

A druid casts only 1 greater creeping cold and wait 12 seconds to see 1 enemy dead.

A sorcerer casts more then 1 spell to see a mob dead in less time.

A sorcerer spends a lot more spell points then a druid, to kill mobs a few seconda faster.

For me a druid outperforms a sorcerer because is more spell points efficient.

For someone else a sorcerer outperforms a druid because it can kill mobs a few seconds faster.

I think it's only a matter of play style.

Most points are pretty decent but 1 BIG thing...

"For someone else a sorcerer outperforms a druid because it can kill mobs a few seconds faster." - a well geared/specced sorc will kill twice as fast as a well geared/specced druid. I only want to emphasize this because Sorc is a totally different animal and much more fickle then a druid but when done right...is a machine of total destruction.

Yes a druid for most people is MUCH easier to survive with...is more SP efficient and has more party utility but there really is no comparison on how fast a Sorc can destroy a dungeon.

Having said that I actually TR'ed into a druid after playing a sorc for years and I am seeing how I like it. I am using Ginger's build because I like tanking EE bosses (yes I know its easier to kite them but it isn't nearly as fun) but I might try yours next time I TR to see what the difference really is. After all is said and done I might go back to Sorc I still haven't decided. I like both classes a lot. The sorc is more handy for general questing but the druid for me is hands down better in raids.

[Sehenry03]

A druid casts only 1 greater creeping cold and wait 12 seconds to see 1 enemy dead.

A sorcerer casts more then 1 spell to see a mob dead in less time.

A sorcerer spends a lot more spell points then a druid, to kill mobs a few seconda faster.

For me a druid outperforms a sorcerer because is more spell points efficient.

For someone else a sorcerer outperforms a druid because it can kill mobs a few seconds faster.

I think it's only a matter of play style.

Sorry I can not edit on these forums...

Also you mention killing 1 mob with druid with 1 spell and a sorc taking 2 spells to kill same mob. That is REALLY misleading. Any sorc who plays like this (other then shirardi maybe) needs to look at their spell selection. I rarely kill one mob with my sorc. I get 5-10 together and kill them all with 2-3 spells in a matter of 2-3 seconds. You have 2 options as a druid really...5 GCC waiting around 15 seconds or more for 5 mobs to die or your AoE sla spell plus wall of fire or ice storm and waiting 13-15 seconds again for things to die and sometimes having to cast twice. A sorc will use 1 SLA and 1-2 full cost spells so yes it is more SP on a druid at times...other times it isn't. Either way the sorc has 5-10 mobs dead in 3 seconds or less and moves on. Heck my WGU runs on my sorc I was killing 15-20 mobs at a time with 3-4 spells at times when circumstances aligned properly.

Again I am not saying your druid build is not competitive because it certainly is. Just make sure you give sorcs a little more credit then just saying Sorcs kill a little faster then druids when that simply is not the case. It should be a drastic difference if playing the sorc properly.

[Michele]

cast druid aoe spells + solid fog clicky, then an energy burst or dragon breath and you kill as fast as a sorcerer.

or with 1 mob cast 1 greater creeping cold and forget about that mob that will die after 12 seconds.

it's a matter of few seconds.

for few seconds faster killing a sorcerer give up all the advantages of being druid: higher prr, higher hit points, better self healing.

As I said, it's only a matter of preference.

About preferring gyngerspyce build: you don't need his build to be a tank or be in sentinel destiny.
Read this:

PRR = +15 past lives +45 heavy armor +25 heavy armor proficiency +30 dumathoin's bracers +5 circle of malevolence +15 tower shield +15 improved shield mastery +30 legendary shield mastery +10 epic damage reduction = 190
(with all divine and purple dragon knight past lives you can reach 211 PRR)

MRR = +45 heavy armor +30 dumathoin's bracers +5 circle of malevolence +15 tower shield = 95

That's the prr and mrr that you can reach in draconic incarnation destiny and you can still have 632 spell power cold together with that prr/mrr.
Anyone can reach high prr in any destiny: you only need to twist legendary shield mastery (that's the only useful thing in that destiny).
In Divine Crusader epic destiny your base attack bonus became equals to your character level (that means more prr), so you will have a defense rate not far from the one you get from sentinel destiny (but you are more offensive at the same time).

Do you really want to take gyngerspyce feats? toughness, epic toughness, empower healing and spell focus evocation.
I don't have any healing problems with regenerate mass buffed only with a flawless blue dragon armor.

[Sehenry03]

cast druid aoe spells + solid fog clicky, then an energy burst or dragon breath and you kill as fast as a sorcerer.

or with 1 mob cast 1 greater creeping cold and forget about that mob that will die after 12 seconds.

it's a matter of few seconds.

for few seconds faster killing a sorcerer give up all the advantages of being druid: higher prr, higher hit points, better self healing.

As I said, it's only a matter of preference.

About preferring gyngerspyce build: you don't need his build to be a tank or be in sentinel destiny.
Read this:

PRR = +15 past lives +45 heavy armor +25 heavy armor proficiency +30 dumathoin's bracers +5 circle of malevolence +15 tower shield +15 improved shield mastery +30 legendary shield mastery +10 epic damage reduction = 190
(with all divine and purple dragon knight past lives you can reach 211 PRR)

MRR = +45 heavy armor +30 dumathoin's bracers +5 circle of malevolence +15 tower shield = 95

That's the prr and mrr that you can reach in draconic incarnation destiny and you can still have 632 spell power cold together with that prr/mrr.
Anyone can reach high prr in any destiny: you only need to twist legendary shield mastery (that's the only useful thing in that destiny).
In Divine Crusader epic destiny your base attack bonus became equals to your character level (that means more prr), so you will have a defense rate not far from the one you get from sentinel destiny (but you are more offensive at the same time).

Do you really want to take gyngerspyce feats? toughness, epic toughness, empower healing and spell focus evocation.
I don't have any healing problems with regenerate mass buffed only with a flawless blue dragon armor.

Ok I am not gonna argue on the druid/sorc thing. If you really think a druid kills the same as a sorc I feel sorry for you more then anything. It just means you are simply way overbiased toward the druid with no willingness to simply consider realizty.

And I'm not saying Ginger's build is better or worse then yours. Both have pro's and con's. I don't understand this desire you have to prove that his build sucks and yours is the only good one. His is better for those that like to get in down and dirty. I have seen what he can do (lots of video's) and I have seen yours (a few videos) and you show what everyone can already do which is kite everything and kill it. His is a TOTALLY different type of build then yours. His build is not suppose to be as dmg based it is simply more tankish. You can do all the math you want...you do a video showing how you can face tank very EE raid boss in the game sometime but until then why can't you simply accept the fact that yours is higher DPS...he admits that...but that his is more facetanking style.

Both your builds are good but until you get over this silly "mine is better!!!!" I'm not really interested. You would be a lot better off to just brag about your build without trying to tear someone else's build down. Again both are good but both are different and serve different purposes.

Oh and BTW a Sorc can get the same exact PRR and pretty sure the same HP's so not sure where you get the fact druids have higher in those aspects.

And I have to ask...why is it everytime I see you post you always have to throw something in about how ginger's build sucks and people HAVE to go your build? LOL sorry I just see you doing that everywhere.

[Michele]

Ok I am not gonna argue on the druid/sorc thing. If you really think a druid kills the same as a sorc I feel sorry for you more then anything. It just means you are simply way overbiased toward the druid with no willingness to simply consider realizty.

And I'm not saying Ginger's build is better or worse then yours. Both have pro's and con's. I don't understand this desire you have to prove that his build sucks and yours is the only good one. His is better for those that like to get in down and dirty. I have seen what he can do (lots of video's) and I have seen yours (a few videos) and you show what everyone can already do which is kite everything and kill it. His is a TOTALLY different type of build then yours. His build is not suppose to be as dmg based it is simply more tankish. You can do all the math you want...you do a video showing how you can face tank very EE raid boss in the game sometime but until then why can't you simply accept the fact that yours is higher DPS...he admits that...but that his is more facetanking style.

Both your builds are good but until you get over this silly "mine is better!!!!" I'm not really interested. You would be a lot better off to just brag about your build without trying to tear someone else's build down. Again both are good but both are different and serve different purposes.

Oh and BTW a Sorc can get the same exact PRR and pretty sure the same HP's so not sure where you get the fact druids have higher in those aspects.

And I have to ask...why is it everytime I see you post you always have to throw something in about how ginger's build sucks and people HAVE to go your build? LOL sorry I just see you doing that everywhere.

I never said that a druid kills the same as a sorcerer (for example Jergall is a top geared sorcerer and he doubles my kills in any quest).
I'm saying that sorcerers kills faster, but for me faster doesn't always means better.

I often update my build, and now includes 45 videos (and I'm going to upload more): you probably judjing my first build.
Consider that in those videos I'm showing a work in progress druid in the level range of 24-27.

I'm not saying that gyngerspyce build sucks: I only asked you if you really want to take those feats.
I shown you how you can have better prr than him without being in sentinel destiny.

Druids have a d8 dice while sorcerers have a d4 dice, that's why I'm saying that druids have more hp than sorcerers (of course everything depends in equipment).

And please, show me how a sorcerer reaches 211 prr in draconic destiny.

In my next life I'll sacrifice 16 points of spell power and 1 Point of DC for shield mastery and I'll try to male a video while I tank an epic elite boss in draconic epic destiny at level 25 (I think the thrill of the hunt will be a good example).