ML 20 gear and below. A hypothetical discussion.

[Pehtis]

Just curious what game would be like for players if all they could use were gear/items that were ML 20 and below. That's right, no Thunderforged items (unless they were toned down for ML20 versions), +6 tomes, augments, or any of that other named/trash stuff. Characters still had access to Epic Destiny tree and epic level feats and skill progression. All post level 20 quests/epics remained exactly the same (i.e. the usual monster dc meatbags, high dc traps etc).

Would the game be impossible or just plain difficult. Would it be a real pain or (gasp) pleasantly difficult.

[Eth]

Just curious what game would be like for players if all they could use were gear/items that were ML 20 and below. That's right, no Thunderforged items (unless they were toned down for ML20 versions), +6 tomes, augments, or any of that other named/trash stuff. Characters still had access to Epic Destiny tree and epic level feats and skill progression. All post level 20 quests/epics remained exactly the same (i.e. the usual monster dc meatbags, high dc traps etc).

Would the game be impossible or just plain difficult. Would it be a real pain or (gasp) pleasantly difficult.

I personally like level 20, simply because of the gear. Putting on Epic Abishai Set, Epic Red scale robe, ToD Set, GS - always like a blast from the past

I ran EE stormhorns at level 20 (in a group). Didn't die and pulled my weight (I guess ). But it did feel very different.
Level 20 gear only would be a lot tougher. There's tons of power creep in gear alone.

[janave]

Depends on the build really, some would see the impact more than others. Clearly not having thunder forged, and 20+ level raid loot would make things quite a bit more difficulty. It would also limit what builds could succeed, with much less tools to build around.

I am often still in heroic gear till 24 on caster lifes, i could swap in my old epic gear but often the gain is either marginal or just not there at all.

Limited access to EDs, epic feats would be much more of debuff.

[Forzah]

Just curious what game would be like for players if all they could use were gear/items that were ML 20 and below. That's right, no Thunderforged items (unless they were toned down for ML20 versions), +6 tomes, augments, or any of that other named/trash stuff. Characters still had access to Epic Destiny tree and epic level feats and skill progression. All post level 20 quests/epics remained exactly the same (i.e. the usual monster dc meatbags, high dc traps etc).

Would the game be impossible or just plain difficult. Would it be a real pain or (gasp) pleasantly difficult.

It will make some difference, but it will still be possible as most character power comes from epic destinies. Good lower level gear can provide most of the benefitis that higher level gear gives (except that the stats will be lower and some properties are missing).

[Eth]

(except that the stats will be lower and some properties are missing).

At least for DC casters this would be a huge point.

1 less from yellow augment
+8 instead of +11
no profane +1
no unique +1
insightful +2 instead of +3
+2 equipment instead of +6
Heroic Litany instead of Epic Litany
---
9.5 DC less

...not to mention the spellpower at level 20.

[Forzah]

At least for DC casters this would be a huge point.

1 less from yellow augment
+8 instead of +11
no profane +1
no unique +1
insightful +2 instead of +3
+2 equipment instead of +6
Heroic Litany instead of Epic Litany
---
9.5 DC less

...not to mention the spellpower at level 20.

Yea. You'd need a build that is quite robust versus changes in DC.

[FuzzyDuck81]

The old seal/scroll/shard epic items would become fairly sought-after again, and Eveningstar commendation items would probably end up becoming best-in-slot for a number of builds

[Standal]

Just curious what game would be like for players if all they could use were gear/items that were ML 20 and below. That's right, no Thunderforged items (unless they were toned down for ML20 versions), +6 tomes, augments, or any of that other named/trash stuff. Characters still had access to Epic Destiny tree and epic level feats and skill progression. All post level 20 quests/epics remained exactly the same (i.e. the usual monster dc meatbags, high dc traps etc).

Would the game be impossible or just plain difficult. Would it be a real pain or (gasp) pleasantly difficult.

What you're describing is the game immediately after MOTU only with level 28 toons. EEs were difficult then, but nobody had level 28 toons and many fewer people had maxed destinies. I think that for melees, the combination of level 28 builds, weapons like ESOS and EAG, and PRR/MRR would make it fairly simple.

[JOTMON]

Depends on the build...
For all..
Heroic Litany
Epic Torc
Greensteel
Greensteel
Greensteel
Greensteel Clickies x many

Depending on class..
eSOS
Epic Bladesmark Docent if WF
Epic Ring of Master ARtificer (WF)
Epic Ring of the Stalker / Drow Smoke Goggles (one or the other)
Omniscience ring
Mithral cloak of the wolf.
Red Dragon Helm/Red Dragon Armor(classic version)
Lenses of the Woodsman
3 or 5 piece set from Epic Chronosphere. depending on melee or caster.
Other Eveningstar sets.. some decent stuff ther efor 20.

[Saekee]

If you are on the Epic reincarnation/TR train, and low on bank space, it is convenient having solid ML20 gear.

Some stuff has aged well for some builds. An EMG in the hands of an INT assassin is a +10 weapon (not including Harper bonuses) and is one of the few that has improved deception.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

There is this common misconception that people cannot do difficult content without uber gear, builds, etc.



...and if you want a little proof, how many epic reincarnation people go back to 20, and still go run all of the EE quests just fine....

[Ancient]

Just curious what game would be like for players if all they could use were gear/items that were ML 20 and below. That's right, no Thunderforged items (unless they were toned down for ML20 versions), +6 tomes, augments, or any of that other named/trash stuff. Characters still had access to Epic Destiny tree and epic level feats and skill progression. All post level 20 quests/epics remained exactly the same (i.e. the usual monster dc meatbags, high dc traps etc).

Would the game be impossible or just plain difficult. Would it be a real pain or (gasp) pleasantly difficult.

The game isn't even that much more difficult. My main character Shammuh is almost always in ML20 gear and solos EEs just fine.

[SirValentine]

At least for DC casters this would be a huge point.

1 less from yellow augment
+8 instead of +11
no profane +1
no unique +1
insightful +2 instead of +3
+2 equipment instead of +6
Heroic Litany instead of Epic Litany
---
9.5 DC less

Nitpick, but +3 school focus is available at ML 20. Rare on named gear, but available on lootgen. So only 8.5. :-)

I have my lootgen +3 scepter at ML 20, and a +4 at ML 24, before I move to T2 Thunderforged at ML 26.

[Livmo]

Just curious what game would be like for players if all they could use were gear/items that were ML 20 and below. That's right, no Thunderforged items (unless they were toned down for ML20 versions), +6 tomes, augments, or any of that other named/trash stuff. Characters still had access to Epic Destiny tree and epic level feats and skill progression. All post level 20 quests/epics remained exactly the same (i.e. the usual monster dc meatbags, high dc traps etc).

Would the game be impossible or just plain difficult. Would it be a real pain or (gasp) pleasantly difficult.

My G-Land Land Livmo is running around level 25 holding his own without fortification and most gear is still L14-18. I don't have a fort item or blue/green slot ATM. Also, I'm still wearing the L14 version of the Jeweled Cloak and an L11 Totemic Levilar from Orchard. I also have L18 Magewright Specticles on for the concentration and spell pen since my hat already has INT. I'm still wearing my homemade Evo DC ring too

Last week I ran EH Fleshmaker's with another playa and we were way under level! Not too bad and had a great time!

I'm a first lifer still on my first ED (draconic) and running around with a Needle I got from the Raider's box and an EE Corruption of Nature from Outbreak.

0-[===>

That's right folks on G-Land last night I did not have any fort on for those EH T0R dragons and did not die. For the 3rd round of dragons I could not get any takers on my LFMs, so I was gonna duel box it and got my cleric in, and didn't need him. Soloed the dragons on a 1st lifer in first ED with mostly heroic gear. Of course, I knew I didn't have any fort, so I made sure to stay out of the way of any rampaging baddies and one step ahead.

The point is the build and gear can make a difference, but so can the player at the kjeyboard regardless of build and/or gearing.

[Saekee]

I suppose one could even pimp themselves out with all the Cannith epic challenge gear and get lots of things covered, such as basic spell power (glaciation, corrosion, etc.), enhanced ki, slippery surface immunity, blurry, dodge, anthem, combat tactics, etc. as well as a slew of diamond and sapphire slots. Sure, it won't be best in slot, but it could endure through a lot of different classes.

I am using some min level 20 stuff and keeping it since I can't clutter my bank (I am a non-hoarder and not using mules or shared accounts). I have the EClaw set for heavy +fort, insightful CON, STR, +4 artifact bonus to damage and hamp. Loving it...I made an epic blasting chime and put in Heal +11 and PRR--nice to have, really, and may make a future bard life easier. the Stars of Day are very good shortswords and as I mentioned above, the EMG is very good. Wish I had two.

[slarden]

It will slow things down and that is about it. You might die more because you have less hp.

Once you've mastered the content you've mastered the content. Taking away 40% of your spellpower means slower dps and a few more deaths - that is all.

[Pehtis]

What I'm reading is although it will be a tad more difficult and perhaps less solo friendly, epic quests could actually be ............... EPIC. Interesting to note there remains plenty of gear at the <ML 20 range that remain useful (just not optimal). Casters appear to be likely to have a tougher time of it on some content but would they really struggle on the Epic Hard stuff or even Epic Normal? Would first lifers stand a chance?

[Cathimon]

Antique Greataxe and Knights' set did the job for my EE sagas. Only had some issues with what goes up and in the belly of the beast, pretty much slaughtered the rest. Grouped for half, soloed the other half.

[slarden]

What I'm reading is although it will be a tad more difficult and perhaps less solo friendly, epic quests could actually be ............... EPIC. Interesting to note there remains plenty of gear at the <ML 20 range that remain useful (just not optimal). Casters appear to be likely to have a tougher time of it on some content but would they really struggle on the Epic Hard stuff or even Epic Normal? Would first lifers stand a chance?

Nope

It would be slower not more difficult. It would be no different than bloating the hp of all enemies and making them hit 10% harder. Content mastery isn't negated by downgrading equipment.

[Eth]

Nitpick, but +3 school focus is available at ML 20. Rare on named gear, but available on lootgen. So only 8.5. :-)

I have my lootgen +3 scepter at ML 20, and a +4 at ML 24, before I move to T2 Thunderforged at ML 26.

Thanks, was completely unaware that those exist. I always sticked to my Staff of the Petitioner at level 20, guess I should check the AH sometimes