Musings of a BF Vanguard

[Gabrion]

TL;DR I'm blown away by how strong my new BF 20 Pally (Vanguard) is.

The longer version...

I started DDO when the cap was level 10, but don't play a lot any more. Usually return once a year to play for a few months and see what's going on. A month ago I came back and, being fairly disappointed with my monk/pally/fvs twf warpriest, decided to reroll. When I say disappointed I mean that level 28 with mediocre gear I found myself being able to trudge along slowly but surely in EE content, clearing trash with relatively little trouble, then taking forever to kill Oranged names and ultimately usually dying to end bosses.

I decided to try out the Bladeforged Race as well as the new Paladin Vanguard enhancement line. I'm blown away by how much better it is than my TWF builds. Not only is it more survivable (which I sort of expected with using a Tower Shield), but it also does far more damage. At level 26 I started doing some EEs and found them trivial.

On the survivability side, I sit around 190 PRR vs my PJ builds 75 or so. This is without any sheltering items or trying to maximize PRR in any way. MRR I can't remember, but it's over 100 I think. BF obviously brings it's own healing to the table with a reconstruct SLA that (without getting good recon or repair items) hits for just over 500 healing. No evasion like many of my prior builds made sure to include, but doesn't seem to be a problem with the recent changes to the game. Of course Paladin's naturally end up with pretty good saves. I think mine are all somewhere near 60 without putting any focus on it (I know this is low, but like I said, haven't put any effort that direction).

Offensively, I'm just still shocked that this guy not only out DPSes my TWF builds, but that he does it probably 2x or 3x. I don't consider him super well geared, though he has a few nice pieces (T2 Thunderforged Bastard Sword and the Purple Dragon shield being the most important). A huge part of this is all the ways to stack +W damage to the point where I think I have 6.8[1d10], 13-20x3 crits, on my bastard sword, and even higher on the shield. Then of course you have zeal, holy sword, and even more crit range because I run in Crusader ED. Another big part is the quad boosts (melee power from KotC, melee power from vanguard, bladesword transform, and the bladeforged enhancement I can't remember), which all amplify through consecrate's +10% damage and then the massive boost from zeal of the righteous. I'm shocked when I see 3.5k shield bashes against non-stunned enemies. Another thing is something like passive +35% melee attack speed and doublestrike (or close to 90% doublestrike at the beginning of zeal), again without making those big focuses (though I'm sure I will try to increase them).

My build did make sacrifices because feats are very hard to work out as a pure pally, but I don't feel like missing some things hurt that much. I have these feats: addy body, THF, ITHF, GTHF, PA, Shield Mastery, ISM, EWP: Bastard Sword, OC, IC:Slash. So ya, I ended up spending epic feats on heroic ones and still missed Improved Shield Bash (so only 60% chance rather than 80%), Quicken (would have been nice for Reconstruct, but hasn't been necessary yet), and Blinding Speed (My Goatskin Boots or Jorgundal's Collar seem to make up for it). No I didn't take Tower Shield Prof because Master's Touch Scrolls work for that.

In summary, if you doubt the vanguard tree, I say give it a try. This is maybe the first time since mod4 that I've played a pure class character and I'm in love with it right now.

[unbongwah]

One suggestion: if you plan to ITR or ER, consider taking Precision instead of PA; you'll find it's better DPS against high-fort targets. The tricky part is hitting DEX 13 on a BF w/-2 base DEX.

[Gabrion]

One suggestion: if you plan to ITR or ER, consider taking Precision instead of PA; you'll find it's better DPS against high-fort targets. The tricky part is hitting DEX 13 on a BF w/-2 base DEX.

Thanks. I'm sure I will ER at least enough to get the doublestrike bonuses from martial spheres, so I may try this. He does have a +5 tome for all abilities and since I end up having to take heroic feats even in epic levels, it wouldn't be a problem to start with 8 DEX and take precision after the tome bonuses kick in to make it 13.

Right now the T2 effect I chose is Dragon's Edge, which says it is armor piercing. Is that the same thing precision does and they stack together?

Also right now I twist Intolerant Blows (+1W damage), Improved Power Attack (+.5W damage), and Legendary Shield Mastery (+15 PRR and +7% doublestrike). If I get rid of power attack I'll have to think of something to replace Improved Power Attack, as well as move some enhancement points I spent on it in the Bladeforged tree.

Also if I ER, I will probably replace Bastard Sword with Dwarven Axe. Unless I'm missing something, they have the same overall damage, but the up side with axe is that if you are grinding martial karma in dreadnaught, you can get another crit multiplier on 19-20 with headsman chop.

[unbongwah]

Right now the T2 effect I chose is Dragon's Edge, which says it is armor piercing. Is that the same thing precision does and they stack together?

http://ddowiki.com/page/Armor-Piercing

IIUC, Precision will stack with other feats / ED abilities which reduce Fortification, like Imp Sunder and Grim Precision; Armor Piercing items do not stack with each other (only highest applies), but will stack w/feats etc.

If I get rid of power attack I'll have to think of something to replace Improved Power Attack, as well as move some enhancement points I spent on it in the Bladeforged tree.

Grim Precision (T3 SD) is an obvious choice for extra -15% Fortification.

-25% Precision
-15% Grim Precision
-35% Dragon's Edge
-75% total Fortification

Also if I ER, I will probably replace Bastard Sword with Dwarven Axe. Unless I'm missing something, they have the same overall damage, but the up side with axe is that if you are grinding martial karma in dreadnaught, you can get another crit multiplier on 19-20 with headsman chop.

Base dmg is the same; so presuming we're talking TF weapons, it's all about the crits, which depends on which ED you're using:

Div Crusader (Celestial Champion, Holy Sword, IC:Slash, Overwhelming Crit)
b.sword: 13-18 x3, 19-20 x4
d.axe: 15-18 x4, 19-20 x5

Legendary Dreadnought (Devastating Crit, Headmans Chop w/d.axe, Holy Sword, IC:Slash, Overwhelming Crit)
b.sword: 15-18 x3, 19-20 x5
d.axe: 17-18 x4, 19-20 x7

With a sufficiently high total dmg mod, the bigger crits from d.axes will out-DPS the more frequent crits from b.swords. D.axes also work with Anvil of Thunder, which provides a free no-save stun on crits; that's more useful than Volcano Edge's Magma Surge dmg, esp. in EEs.

[Ancient]

In summary, if you doubt the vanguard tree, I say give it a try. This is maybe the first time since mod4 that I've played a pure class character and I'm in love with it right now.

Could you post the enhancements, or at least a summary of what you did? I'm looking to TR into a pally soon for some martial/divine past lives and I would love to try a vanguard build. I have a preference for researching my build and reading discussion before I make the character, but there just isn't much out there right now.

Probably the two best (IMO) recent build threads would be steel shrine and Unbongwah's.

Steel Shrine sounds great and has fantastic discussion, but I would prefer to try a pure pally and I am not convinced on spending AP in war priest.

Unbongwah has a thread with some builds, but he uses the (IMO) awful output of Rons that spreads information out across levels rather than group the feats together, enhancements together, etc. The discussion in that thread seems to mostly be "I tried this just because" which doesn't help me evaluate it. It is a great thread for people who just want a build to follow, but not so much for someone looking for a discussion of the options.

[Gabrion]

http://ddowiki.com/page/Armor-Piercing

IIUC, Precision will stack with other feats / ED abilities which reduce Fortification, like Imp Sunder and Grim Precision; Armor Piercing items do not stack with each other (only highest applies), but will stack w/feats etc.

Grim Precision (T3 SD) is an obvious choice for extra -15% Fortification.

-25% Precision
-15% Grim Precision
-35% Dragon's Edge
-75% total Fortification

Base dmg is the same; so presuming we're talking TF weapons, it's all about the crits, which depends on which ED you're using:

Div Crusader (Celestial Champion, Holy Sword, IC:Slash, Overwhelming Crit)
b.sword: 13-18 x3, 19-20 x4
d.axe: 15-18 x4, 19-20 x5

Legendary Dreadnought (Devastating Crit, Headmans Chop w/d.axe, Holy Sword, IC:Slash, Overwhelming Crit)
b.sword: 15-18 x3, 19-20 x5
d.axe: 17-18 x4, 19-20 x7

With a sufficiently high total dmg mod, the bigger crits from d.axes will out-DPS the more frequent crits from b.swords. D.axes also work with Anvil of Thunder, which provides a free no-save stun on crits; that's more useful than Volcano Edge's Magma Surge dmg, esp. in EEs.

Great response as always...seems like every time I see you post I want to +1 rep you.

I had overlooked Anvil of Thunder, which as you said, adds more utility than Volcano Edge.

Grim Precision could be a good twist. I honestly don't even have all the fate points from destinies though, so need to knock that out (Magister and Fury left).

Could you post the enhancements, or at least a summary of what you did? I'm looking to TR into a pally soon for some martial/divine past lives and I would love to try a vanguard build. I have a preference for researching my build and reading discussion before I make the character, but there just isn't much out there right now.

Probably the two best (IMO) recent build threads would be steel shrine and Unbongwah's.

Steel Shrine sounds great and has fantastic discussion, but I would prefer to try a pure pally and I am not convinced on spending AP in war priest.

Unbongwah has a thread with some builds, but he uses the (IMO) awful output of Rons that spreads information out across levels rather than group the feats together, enhancements together, etc. The discussion in that thread seems to mostly be "I tried this just because" which doesn't help me evaluate it. It is a great thread for people who just want a build to follow, but not so much for someone looking for a discussion of the options.

I know what you mean. It's nice to have a format most people immediately recognize, but I prefer to lump together themes.

If going pure pally and playing as a Vanguard, these are what I'd consider the minimum investments in each tree (and why).

41 Vanguard: If you went pure and are playing this style, better get the capstone.
11 Bladeforged: Maybe not a hard requirement, but I think you want a 6 second CD Reconstruct. My gear isn't quite done and it hits me for 750 at a cost of 25 SP. You can try to cover this with the repair spells Bladeforged get, but there aren't room for feats to amp them (and they would cost more anyway).
6 Sacred Defender: +25 PRR/MRR is something you shouldn't pass up
9 KotC: No Pally is complete without Divine Might. I say 9 is minimum here rather than 11 because I've been comfortable with 1 minute duration, but YMMV.

I think this leaves 13 points to "play with" though I have opinions about where they should go. What I've actually spent in each tree is:

17 Bladeforged: Improved Fort, 3/3 Mechanist (I pretty much only solo, you may want the other option if depending a lot on positive energy healing), 3/3 Communion of Scribing, 1/3 Improved Power Attack (would like more, but it's all I can get spending the minimum to open the top tier...also you may swap this if you don't go with Power Attack, probably picking up 1/3 Communion of Warding for a bit more PRR), Weapon Attachment, Power of the Forge (can stack with other boosts).

42 Vanguard: 6x Core enhancements, 4x Shield Specialization, 3/3 Shield Smash, 3/3 Stunning Shield, 3/3 Melee Power Boost, 3/3 Follow Up (I'd say this is up to you, maybe 3/3 brutality is better, but I don't have the gear right now to get super high stun DCs so I went with a bit more melee power after a stun...also I still want to check if it gives the melee power after a passive shield bash stun from the capstone, in which case it's probably always worth taking), 3/3 Myrmidon's Edge, Shield to the Face (I know there is a lot of math discussion about diminishing returns of % to bash when you have a high attack speed and the game limits you to 1 bash per second no matter what, but I took this because I could not fit the Improved Shield Bash feat, so I was already missing 20% bash chance), 3/3 Disorienting Smash (I did not take first degree burns on my thunder-forged weapon, so took this to get vulnerable, but you can invest these three elsewhere if you know you don't need to be applying vulnerable), 3/3 Shield Rush (note that I did not take Shield Charge...I found it buggy and not really adding any utility the way Shield Rush does), Armored Strength.

15 KotC: Slayer of Evil I, 2/3 Extra Turning (filler), 2/2 Extra Smite (sort of filler, but I use it to fuel Intolerant Blows, so I like having extra), 2/3 Divine Might (again, I'm comfortable with the 1 minute duration, but you may want to find 2 more points to make it 2 minutes), 3/3 Action Boost Melee/Ranged Power (this currently stacks with melee power action boost from vanguard as well as the racial boost from bladeforged...I expect it to be fixed some day and then you probably move these 3 points elsewhere).

6 Sacred Defender: Holy Bastion, 3/3 Durable Defense, Sacred Defense. About as basic as you can get, giving a nice boost to PRR/MRR.

Thoughts on Variations
-If you don't need to stack vulnerable yourself, you can get 1 point back from the vanguard tree compared to what I did.
-If the action boosts are fixed to not stack, you get 3 points back from KotC
-If you just want to play around with other options, the Bladeforged tree seems like the most likely place to cut. In theory you could get all 15 points back. I'd say this decreases your damage a bit with no weapon attachment or Power of the Forge, plus means you need a healing option to replace the Reconstruct SLA.
-If you did get those points back from WF, you could either pick up more offense from KotC (Exalted Cleave, Divine Sac, and 3 more core abilities giving you 3d6 scaling light damage on all attacks) or defense from Sacred Defender (at least picking up either +6 STR, +6 CON, or +20% HP, and maybe even Swift Defense if that stacks, but I don't really know).
-Since my build has the full THF line of feats, you could also change things up entirely and drop vanguard when you're bored. Sure it means some wasted feats in the build with Shield Mastery and ISM, but you do a good job swinging a greataxe or whatever (and in this case can still go enough vanguard for the melee power boost, while spending most points in KotC, Bladeforged, and Sacred Defender).

[Gabrion]

And just for fun, some screenshots, since I like the glamors I've recently created.