Lag protest 2015

[Faltout]

There is a thread called Ugh! in the Player's Council area.

I don't want to quote from it for various reason.


One of the members of the PC has posted some good information for Devs to work with regarding Trace Routes and time expended thru each trace route.

It seems one of the possible problems may have been located.

If anyone wants to run trace routes here is numbers to use:
For the sake of completness here is the full server IP list :

74.201.106.53 Wayfinder [DE]
74.201.106.64 Ghallanda
74.201.106.56 Argonnessen
74.201.106.21 Thelanis
74.201.106.22 Sarlona
74.201.106.23 Khyber
74.201.106.59 Cannith
74.201.106.60 Orien
74.201.106.23 Khyber
74.201.106.59 Cannith
74.201.106.60 Orien

Traceroute is a fundamental tool for troubleshooting internet. But it's not that sophisticated. What it does:
1. Creates an ICMP (protocol) echo request. This basically says to the receiver "send me back whatever I said"
2. It sets the TimeToLive (TTL) field of an IP (protocol) packet. Each router that unwraps the IP packet and reads the source and destination needs to reduce this counter by 1. This is necessary to ensure that there are no stray packets running around in circles on the internet. Now, optionally, the router that reduces this counter to 0 can respond with a time out packet to the sender including his IP. However, a router may choose not to do this because it's really busy or it doesn't want to get attacked by being forced to send many time out packets, or any other reason.
3. The traceroute tool will receive any time out packets and report the IP of the router that the packet died. By starting with the TTL field to 1 and increasing till the packet reaches its destination (without dying), it is able to report most of the middle routers (because they responded).
4. The receiver of an ICMP echo request can choose not to respond (just as the routers can choose not to send a time out packet). In that case, traceroute will keep sending packets with a TTL field up to a default value (30?) and then stop.

By the above description you can understand that there are a lot of flaws and things that this tool can't troubleshoot. But anyway, here's my traceroute:
Khyber:

Microsoft Windows [Version 6.1.7601]
Copyright (c) 2009 Microsoft Corporation. All rights reserved.

>tracert 74.201.106.23

Tracing route to 74.201.106.23 over a maximum of 30 hops

...

8 75 ms 74 ms 74 ms be3020.rcr21.fra06.atlas.cogentco.com [130.117.1
5.193]
9 74 ms 74 ms 73 ms be2305.ccr42.fra03.atlas.cogentco.com [154.54.74
.77]
10 85 ms 84 ms 84 ms be2262.ccr42.ams03.atlas.cogentco.com [154.54.37
.33]
11 91 ms 91 ms 92 ms be2183.ccr22.lpl01.atlas.cogentco.com [154.54.58
.69]
12 168 ms 169 ms 168 ms be2387.ccr22.bos01.atlas.cogentco.com [154.54.44
.165]
13 169 ms 169 ms 168 ms te3-2.ccr01.bos06.atlas.cogentco.com [154.54.46.
130]
14 168 ms 167 ms 168 ms 38.104.252.70
15 157 ms 158 ms 158 ms border1.te7-1-bbnet1.bsn003.pnap.net [63.251.128
.43]
16 158 ms 158 ms 158 ms turbine-7.border1.bsn003.pnap.net [64.95.76.202]

17 159 ms 158 ms 158 ms 74.201.102.170
18 * * * Request timed out.
19 * * * Request timed out.
20 * * * Request timed out.
21 * ^C

Wayfinder:

>tracert 74.201.106.53

Tracing route to 74.201.106.53 over a maximum of 30 hops

...

7 90 ms 89 ms 89 ms be3030.agr21.fra03.atlas.cogentco.com [130.117.1
4.217]
8 80 ms 79 ms 81 ms be2184.ccr41.fra03.atlas.cogentco.com [130.117.4
8.70]
9 85 ms 84 ms 84 ms be2261.ccr41.ams03.atlas.cogentco.com [154.54.37
.29]
10 98 ms 97 ms 98 ms be2182.ccr21.lpl01.atlas.cogentco.com [154.54.77
.246]
11 160 ms 158 ms 160 ms be2386.ccr21.bos01.atlas.cogentco.com [154.54.44
.161]
12 163 ms 161 ms 161 ms te3-4.ccr01.bos06.atlas.cogentco.com [154.54.46.
134]
13 171 ms 171 ms 171 ms 38.104.252.70
14 160 ms 159 ms 160 ms border1.te8-1-bbnet2.bsn003.pnap.net [63.251.128
.107]
15 159 ms 161 ms 159 ms turbine-7.border1.bsn003.pnap.net [64.95.76.202]

16 160 ms 161 ms 161 ms 74.201.102.170
17 * * * Request timed out.
18 * * ^C

Seems like both are reaching their destination, Turbine servers. (I don't expect the game servers to respond to echo requests...)

But what does this prove? Absolutely nothing (except maybe the route my packets take). Maybe by playing the time I took this traceroute I wouldn't lag in Khyber server. Maybe the route changes from time to time. Maybe someone that is not answering behind this 74.201.102.170 is dropping packets.

I had a discussion about lag with Cordovan many months ago.
My approach was to try and determine whether changing graphic settings would help the situation any.
He was interested, but reminded me not to think too binary on lag, that it is a complex issue with many variables.

He is absolutely right. Lag can be in:
- The user machine
- The network
- The server

We have ruled out user machines (hence all graphic settings, RAM, etc.) because people with various computers are experiencing this and also the same game played on another server runs just fine.
We haven't ruled out the network, but the network is large. We have certainly ruled out any ISPs close to the users. We can't do or say anything about Turbine networking.
And we suspect it's the server. Why?
- Because the lag is focused on one server.
- Because game objects that should never get their triggers from the network (by assuming good game design), are losing their triggers (chests not unlocking when the boss is killed while lagging, traps not activating while stepping on them while lagging, Area of Effect spells on mosters not going away when the monster moves out of the area while lagging, etc.).
- Because the in game tool for connection diagnosis does not show any packet drops but instead shows MUCH less incoming and outgoing traffic when lagging and massive traffic when getting out of lag
- Because the lag is not total. If something on Turbine's network is broken, then the whole Khyber server should be offline.
- Because the lag is starting to affect other servers too (could even affect LOTRO if they share computing resources).

[XodousRoC]

People are gathering on the bridge, and so it begins...

Carry the torch, friend. I have several inches of snow and a balky pickup to contend with, so away I must. I love the idea of a peaceful sit-in. Consider me there in spirit until I (hopefully) join the crowd later.

Best of luck to us all.

~Belvynh, Khyber

[Thalone]

Management knows it's serious when the market bridge gets involved...

[DDOisFree]

It is a new year and things change. It's time to embrace the changes that have come to pass. To honor the newly ascended god of all gods, new character names may be appropriate. Below are a few possible examples:

Lagarythm, Delag, Sir Lagsalot,
CannaMove, Footglue, Elastilag,
Lagonade, Lagonardo, Lagaton,
Instalag, Raidilag, Shiplagimuch,
Abralag, Lagustin, Lagomorph,
Laginform, Laguna, Lagoon,
Lagislate, Lagendary, Lagitimate,
Lagrivator, Lagronomic,Lagress,
Lagamus, Lagamous, Lagamouse,
Lagony, Lagonize, Lagonized,
Laggrieved, lagzistential, Golagpoli,
Lagitimate,
and my favorite: Stuckimus Frozenheimer


and for one who still believes there is no proof of lag on Khyber:
Lagnostic

and for one who pretends there is no lag on Khyber to get people wound up:
Trollagy

Maybe I should log in on my cleric mule, Lagoless Server Mender.

[Silverleafeon]

Maybe I should log in on my cleric mule, Lagoless Server Mender.

Sure, the more the merrier, the bridge is lively right now, ought to be taking screenshots...

[Nefatron]

We the people are united!

This needs to be fixed and not just on Khyber Ghallanda is horrible as well.. Having to restart raids not because of deaths but purely because You lag out so hard you cant move for long long periods of time.
DDO Crashes have been up among player ive been talking to.
Not being able to load into new section i.e necro 4, GH stuff like that.

What ever you guys need to do to fix this.. Fix it please.

Maybe merge a few of these so you dont have to set eyes on so many servers.. You can maintain just a few properly.

[XodousRoC]

We the people are united!

This needs to be fixed and not just on Khyber Ghallanda is horrible as well.. Having to restart raids not because of deaths but purely because You lag out so hard you cant move for long long periods of time.
DDO Crashes have been up among player ive been talking to.
Not being able to load into new section i.e necro 4, GH stuff like that.

What ever you guys need to do to fix this.. Fix it please.

Maybe merge a few of these so you dont have to set eyes on so many servers.. You can maintain just a few properly.

Merging would almost certainly require an upgrade in server hardware. I'm horribly frustrated by this. We deserve some kind of public acknowledgment. The lag on Khyber has been absolutely beastly for 3 WEEKS!

I understand that taking definitive steps requires investigation. I understand that fixing this will require investment dollars. This is serious business on the Dev end. I really do get it. We need some kind of discourse beyond individual tickets, however. We deserve more than "We are aware of the issue and are working on getting it fixed" individually. Write a Dev post. Make a statement in the login UI portal. Do SOMETHING to let the majority of (very) frustrated players know what's going on. People are paying a month's VIP sub for a game they haven't been able to really enjoy for 3/4 of that month (and counting....).

I will reiterate that I intend no attack on the Devs. I'm sure they aware of the issue, but they need to REALLY see how global the problem is in Khyber. This thread is a start. A public place in which Dev interaction would be welcome and invited. It is not enough...but it would at least be a start. Don't force people to turn in tickets to get that acknowledgement.

**I would not hate a merge, btw. LFMs are getting less and less numerous. Vets (myself included) often find it less frustrating to run quests solo than post an LFM to which nobody responds. If my TR buddies aren't on, and my guild isn't active, there's just so little social grouping. Managing a merge would be an investment though...a big one. Given the issues we have during events (and recently just in general), the servers would have to be significantly upgraded.**

[Silverleafeon]

Turned off my computer for a while sleeping.

Back on the bridge for day two of the Peaceful Protest.

(letting the Devs know about thus in the Ugh! thread too)

[XodousRoC]

Turned off my computer for a while sleeping.

Back on the bridge for day two of the Peaceful Protest.

(letting the Devs know about thus in the Ugh! thread too)

I'm glad some folks in the server came together and worked to achieve a common goal in a peaceful manner. It was hopping on the bridge for a while!

*Following not aimed at anyone who posted here*
I'm disappointed in others who were degrading and full vitriol. You don't have to agree with a peaceful sit-in when folks are trying to prompt the devs to action over the crippling lag (which you even copped to experiencing yourself), but please retain civility in your conversations. Attempts to degrade people for having the courage to put themselves out there in an attempt to promote community action and positive change should be embarrassing...to you... Use of foul language in the General chat tab is unacceptable, period. Young people play this game; perhaps the individual in question was one. Use better judgement than that. I implore you. Switch to a different tab. Squelch me. Don't attempt to engage me in conversation when all you have to offer are insults, innuendo, and use of expletives.

Thank you to all who participated. Thank you to the devs for listening. Take care all, and we'll see you soon!!

[Skyrunner]

the server restart will help for a week or 2 (and i'm optimist), the server is just getting old since they are online from 2006.

[Slanesh21]

Khyber ist starting to lag again. Restart the server on Monday, please!

[Qhualor]

aaaaand its back.

[Amedeus]

I personally appreciate it.

[vaniir1976]

I never post on the forums but this lag has gotten to be so bad. I just reactivated my account and this lag is making me rethink how wise it was to do so. It's so frustrating to get 3/4 of the way through a quest (sometimes spending an hour or more getting there) only to have lag come creeping up and kill you.

How old is this game??? You'd think basic problems like this dumb lag would have been fixed by now. Seriously...

[Iaga]

I never post on the forums but this lag has gotten to be so bad. I just reactivated my account and this lag is making me rethink how wise it was to do so. It's so frustrating to get 3/4 of the way through a quest (sometimes spending an hour or more getting there) only to have lag come creeping up and kill you.

How old is this game??? You'd think basic problems like this dumb lag would have been fixed by now. Seriously...

They pretty much destroyed the ability to play over the holidays Van - play it as a free game, don't spend any money - they obviously don't care - of all the games i've played, turbine is far and away the worst at managing community relations and their ability to make the game playable.

Dagashi/Gumshoe

[atkbeast]

As with the last round of lag Khyber seems to be getting hit the hardest and Ghallanda being second. And like last time the number of Daedalean Kraken instances seems to reflect on the server's level of lag. I checked most of the servers today and had Kraken instances of 250+, Ghallanda was around 150 and the rest of the servers were around 50 and under. For whatever reason, Khyber and Ghallanda are having problems losing instances.

At least Khyber is not running 2000+ instances like before the restart.

[XodousRoC]

I personally appreciate it.

I guess I'm necroing my own thread, but I just wanted to thank everyone that posted to this thread for remaining civil despite your frustrations. And many thanks for the kindness shown in-game and on the forums by many of you. It's refreshing to have a thread bereft of personal attacks and unfounded accusations of entitlement .

Belvynh, Khyber

[apacheizm23]

I can't believe I pay for this ****. This is most likely the last time I up my subscription unless they promise to fix these issues once and for all. A friend of mine logged in last night with me to do a couple of runs, and he said F this! I don't miss this lag **** game. He went back to playing WoW where he says he has no lag at all, and he plays on an old laptop.

[Ladywolf]

lag is back https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...-a-reset-again

[Waaye]

I guess I'm necroing my own thread[...]

Well, XodusRoC, the whole "necro" concept does not make sense to me. This thread can only become "necro" after they permanently fix the server related problems. Until then the subject will be of current interest and labelling it "necro" could be considered a form of 'trolling'.

One thing though the term "lag" in the original post is too generic and is used to describe many different problems. To me lag is the hysteresis between a control input and an action. That can be bad if the lag is too great but DDO has other problems that can have even more impact on the game. Sometimes my main character on Thelanis suffers from game 'freezes' and 'rubber-banding'. It is the 'freezes' that cause my character to wipe out more than anything else.

Yesterday, in House Avithoul, every arrow in my archer's Manyshot burst missed the mini-boss standing right in front of him because of 'freezing'. My hireling refused to get involved in the fray and the little named twerp then killed both of us in short order. It is a good thing we were solo so nobody will ever find out about the humiliation.

The thing that mystifies me the most is how this game can freeze when soloing a quest. The entire game world should be generated locally so that no external factor could cause 'freezing'. It seems that in DDO the local machines do depend on information coming from the server(s), even when soloing, so 'freezing' can and does occur.

Unless the 'freezing' stops my characters will have difficulty advancing much further in the game and that is not entertaining.