Future of DDO endgame?

[Delacroix21]

Basically endgame in DDO is severely lacking, no one is denying that. New content has slowed to a halt, and more often then not is more LOW level quests! The lack of endgame has been bleeding players out of this game for some time now. A nice chunk of my guild (including myself) don't even log in anymore, but we come back when new endgame content is added, NOT when new lower level junk is added.


So Devs post on this=

1. When will you STOP making lower level content? When is enough enough?
2. When will we finally see a full focus on endgame with all new content expanding it?
3. Has new lower level content gained any new players? or are you still losing players? (this is due to lack of endgame)



Please focus on endgame from now on, this includes ToEE. New lower level content does NOT keep the interest of your playerbase, or attract new players! You are the only MMO that does this!

[Keladon]

Basically endgame in DDO is severely lacking, no one is denying that. New content has slowed to a halt, and more often then not is more LOW level quests! The lack of endgame has been bleeding players out of this game for some time now. A nice chunk of my guild (including myself) don't even log in anymore, but we come back when new endgame content is added, NOT when new lower level junk is added.

So Devs post on this=

1. When will you STOP making lower level content? When is enough enough?
2. When will we finally see a full focus on endgame with all new content expanding it?
3. Has new lower level content gained any new players? or are you still losing players? (this is due to lack of endgame)

Please focus on endgame from now on, this includes ToEE. New lower level content does NOT keep the interest of your playerbase, or attract new players! You are the only MMO that does this!

You probably don't want to hear this.. but I like new lower level content.

I like playing heroic level quests and doing heroic TR's and those are a lot more fun if they add some new content from time to time.
They probably also do this because of the ability to TR, which makes/allows you to play through all the low level content again. (something that most MMO's don't offer)

But Is there something wrong with new 'low level' content that also has an epic version?

Different strokes for different folks.

[Delacroix21]

You probably don't want to hear this.. but I like new lower level content.

I like playing heroic level quests and doing heroic TR's and those are a lot more fun if they add some new content from time to time.
They probably also do this because of the ability to TR, which makes/allows you to play through all the low level content again. (something that most MMO's don't offer)

But Is there something wrong with new 'low level' content that also has an epic version?

Different strokes for different folks.

Yes there is something wrong when the epic version of the quests isn't at level cap like the new madness junk.


Also, the Devs cant disagree that the game is bleeding players, although they seem to think what they are doing will fix that even though it hasn't been working for the past few years. After like the 10th TR you will get sick of running the same lower level stuff over and over, and for what? What happens when you finally cap? Does the REAL game begin like every other MMO? or is there absolutely nothing to do except TR again?


That is not a good game design, and unless the Devs make a serious focus on end game they will lose more and more subscribers each month.

[psykopeta]

they can't ddo as other mmo (i.e. focusing on endgame, new raids, etc) because ddo sucks as mmo

so they stick to what other games don't have: the ability to tr

ofc once you have all your pl and such, then you want to use em, but that's something you should have known before starting the route

i always said that, the day i get all my pl, i will leave ddo, i can't belive that if i knew that when i joined ddo (when max lvl was 20) cause the lack of endgame, someone who started playing before than me haven't noticed it yet

also, once they start adding challenge in one or other way people start whining because they want to keep facerolling content so... there's no endgame cause ddo devs and programmers aren't capable to make it appealing compared to other mmo, and ddo has no challenge cause players want to hit the point where they have all the pl to stop playing ddo

like it has been said before: ddo's engame is tr, not by the power you get, but cause other's mmorpg can't offer it to you (yup, they escrewed completionist addind ED, but completionist wasn't that great to start with), ofc i will get triple-everything for the sake of hoarding and done


btw, amazes me how players assume they know the reason why ddo is losing players:
- ones say the lack of endgame
- others say the lack of challenge
- i (and others)say that is due to the lack of quality professionals, i mean starting from the programmers til the chief of the devs, they have no clue how their game works and how their players are, looks to me they don't like what they are doing and, only try to hit end of month to get paid


so, i will agree with you that ddo is dying, but you should agree with me that nobody knows the reason, there're much more reasons than the 3 i posted (unplayable bugs as example, if we haven't met em, doesn't mean one player found one and had to stop playing cause nobody could help him, it's like the previous reasions: subjective)

[Ayseifn]

they can't ddo as other mmo (i.e. focusing on endgame, new raids, etc) because ddo sucks as mmo

so they stick to what other games don't have: the ability to tr

ofc once you have all your pl and such, then you want to use em, but that's something you should have known before starting the route

i always said that, the day i get all my pl, i will leave ddo, i can't belive that if i knew that when i joined ddo (when max lvl was 20) cause the lack of endgame, someone who started playing before than me haven't noticed it yet

also, once they start adding challenge in one or other way people start whining because they want to keep facerolling content so... there's no endgame cause ddo devs and programmers aren't capable to make it appealing compared to other mmo, and ddo has no challenge cause players want to hit the point where they have all the pl to stop playing ddo

like it has been said before: ddo's engame is tr, not by the power you get, but cause other's mmorpg can't offer it to you (yup, they escrewed completionist addind ED, but completionist wasn't that great to start with), ofc i will get triple-everything for the sake of hoarding and done


btw, amazes me how players assume they know the reason why ddo is losing players:
- ones say the lack of endgame
- others say the lack of challenge
- i (and others)say that is due to the lack of quality professionals, i mean starting from the programmers til the chief of the devs, they have no clue how their game works and how their players are, looks to me they don't like what they are doing and, only try to hit end of month to get paid


so, i will agree with you that ddo is dying, but you should agree with me that nobody knows the reason, there're much more reasons than the 3 i posted (unplayable bugs as example, if we haven't met em, doesn't mean one player found one and had to stop playing cause nobody could help him, it's like the previous reasions: subjective)

We had a viable end game at level 20 cap, so not sure what you're trying to say. Yes it was advertised as temporary and that we'd eventually go into epic levels but I like many others assumed we'd get another end game, and heck maybe even better than 20 cap. Thing's honestly only took a big misstep with Shadowfell, level 25 cap wasn't spectacular but was still pretty decent. You had some reason to stay at level 25 at least.

28 cap is the worst, nothing requires you to be 28, too many incentives to eTR instead of think about staying level 28(clear ransack, raid timers, extra PLs, etc.), quests are so easy now that you're better off doing them when you get XP from them(TR) and probably other things.

Also I've said it before but might as well say it again, all these updates that are being released before 30 cap better have a level 30 cap component ready to roll when it comes. level 30 3BC better be ready, level 30 madness thingy better be ready, new and improved level 30 necro(tome/shield of legends please) better be ready. No one want just a new difficulty with only say 4 quests and a raid to get the ball rolling, the ball should be rolling behind the scenes right now.

[Uska]

Basically endgame in DDO is severely lacking, no one is denying that. New content has slowed to a halt, and more often then not is more LOW level quests! The lack of endgame has been bleeding players out of this game for some time now. A nice chunk of my guild (including myself) don't even log in anymore, but we come back when new endgame content is added, NOT when new lower level junk is added.


So Devs post on this=

1. When will you STOP making lower level content? When is enough enough?
2. When will we finally see a full focus on endgame with all new content expanding it?
3. Has new lower level content gained any new players? or are you still losing players? (this is due to lack of endgame)



Please focus on endgame from now on, this includes ToEE. New lower level content does NOT keep the interest of your playerbase, or attract new players! You are the only MMO that does this!

1. There isn't ever enough lower level content and they haven't made anything lower than 15 in years
2. Not everyone wants end game I certainly don't (not against it but its not for me)
3. Lower level content will get new players al lot more surely than end game would don't you think and the coming lower level version of the Temple of Elemental Evil should draw some.

[Delacroix21]

1. There isn't ever enough lower level content and they haven't made anything lower than 15 in years
2. Not everyone wants end game I certainly don't (not against it but its not for me)
3. Lower level content will get new players al lot more surely than end game would don't you think and the coming lower level version of the Temple of Elemental Evil should draw some.

Actually you are totally wrong on new lower level content attracting new players. No random person is going to say, "look a 8 year old DnD mmo that I never tried has a new mid level quest chain, I think I will try it now!" Seriously I can't believe you think that's how old mmos attract new players.


Old mmos attract new players by existing players convincing others that this game that they haven't played in the last 8 years is a hidden gem they should try! But that isn't happening here as many old players leave the game each day.


Besides, don't you think new players would ask "what is the endgame like?" What do you honestly think their reaction would be when we say "there is none, however you can start over at level one and have to gain a huge amount more xp to get back to cap for +1 damage! Then you do that over and over and over again!". Them: "So you keep playing the same old lower level content to death with no reason to stay capped? I think I will pass on this game"



Honestly I wish the Devs took a good and honest hard look at this game from an outside perspective. The concept of replaying old content to death is not attractive to anyone, least of all new players.

[Delacroix21]

This has all the elements of a great game, and I am not saying to remove TR, I am simply saying there is ENOUGH lower level content to get you to cap that we don't NEED more.


What we do NEED is an endgame, which we don't have.

[Uska]

Actually you are totally wrong on new lower level content attracting new players. No random person is going to say, "look a 8 year old DnD mmo that I never tried has a new mid level quest chain, I think I will try it now!" Seriously I can't believe you think that's how old mmos attract new players.


Old mmos attract new players by existing players convincing others that this game that they haven't played in the last 8 years is a hidden gem they should try! But that isn't happening here as many old players leave the game each day.


Besides, don't you think new players would ask "what is the endgame like?" What do you honestly think their reaction would be when we say "there is none, however you can start over at level one and have to gain a huge amount more xp to get back to cap for +1 damage! Then you do that over and over and over again!". Them: "So you keep playing the same old lower level content to death with no reason to stay capped? I think I will pass on this game"



Honestly I wish the Devs took a good and honest hard look at this game from an outside perspective. The concept of replaying old content to death is not attractive to anyone, least of all new players.

End game content won't attract new players period!

[Uska]

This has all the elements of a great game, and I am not saying to remove TR, I am simply saying there is ENOUGH lower level content to get you to cap that we don't NEED more.


What we do NEED is an endgame, which we don't have.

Disagree there is enough low level content for you but this gsme isn't just for you. I have always said they can do the majority of stuff at the high end but don't ignore the low end which they have done for several years there has been no new low end content. There has been mid range stuff but ZERO low end.

[IronClan]

To say new players need new low level content is highly suspect... they've never PLAYED THE EXISTING CONTENT let alone repeated it. I would bet that there's enough heroic content to do two TR's and not absolutely need to repeat a quest you did on the first life outside of Korthos (and I've completely skipped Korthos on more than a few TR's so I am not sure you'd even need to repeat them)! So it appears to be a bald faced self justification for people who have this weird irrational short sighted dislike of end game. People who don't get the idea of endgame are people who simply haven't reached the point in their journey where they are looking to put all that TR'ing to the test.

DDO is like a highway that leads to a dead end, you can loop around at the dead end and start back at the begining but ultimately there's no reason to, and once you've done it a few times you start wondering why you're bothering. Endgame is like putting a amusement park at the end of the highway... it gives structure and meaning to the journey, without it the highway is pointless. It gives a reason to improve your character. because without it you're improving your character for content you've already blasted through. If it's not there then there's no reason to improve.

[IronClan]

Disagree there is enough low level content for you but this gsme isn't just for you. I have always said they can do the majority of stuff at the high end but don't ignore the low end which they have done for several years there has been no new low end content. There has been mid range stuff but ZERO low end.

I believe he means there's OBJECTIVELY enough low level content, enough to physically provide the XP needed to progress through it without repeating anything... In any case Endgame does not need to be done at the expense of lower level content. The old 20 cap Epic way of making an Epic version of all new content proves that they could make a level 30 version of everything that gets released making BOTH the perpetual TR's and the Endgame oriented players happy.

I would go one better than that, I believe you can do the better part of TWO TR's without repeating any low level content except a couple of the staples. I have kinda-sortah done a similar thing without really trying to on a 2nd life simply because I mostly wanted to do stuff I didn't do on the last TR. IIRC it wasn't very hard to avoid the stuff I did on the first (probably wont work on a 3rd life as you need too much XP ofc). If you're willing to brave the occasional underlevel Elite BB, in any case it's certainly objectively true that there's "enough" heroic content.

End game content won't attract new players period!

New low level content wont either... say this out loud: I joined DDO because a friend told me it had lots of LOW LEVEL QUESTS... That's kinda like only seeing a movie because the directors cut came out with new scenes... you don't know what the original cut was like why would you care about the directors cut?

Yeah not exactly something new players care about, because they've never played the OLD low level stuff so why would they care?

On the other hand if someone told me that starting a character in DDO is pointless because it's a highway leading to a deadend with no endgame destination to lend functional meaning to progressing our characters, I would hesitate to start playing, I would ask questions like "surely they are going to put an endgame in before I get a character to cap right?" and the answer would be "well no because if you play 5 hours of E for BB 3 nights a week you'll be at cap before the next update is released... "So I'll have nothing to do?" well there's a few raids... but mostly you TR "whats that do" well that makes your character progressively and permanently more powerful, "so what do I do when I'm done with that?" well at that point you've got nothing to do... "wait so you're saying I can cap and start over to make my character more powerful but ultimately in the end I will have done this for no reason because there's not much to do with a fully progressed character?" Um... well yeah when you put it that way ....

This is why the game has lost players at an alarming rate since the old endgame was obsoleted without anything to replace it. Logic says so, Game theory says so, Even Ex-Turbine Developers said so and got fired for their candor.

[axel15810]

I hope that with the level 30 cap increase this year we get -

1) a multi-raid endgame expansion
2) A new rule that raid timer bypasses are usable only once per timer cycle (one per 3 days per raid). Then they can actually stop implementing incredibly low drop rates on raid chests. The whole point of bypasses was so you weren't blocked from running raids with your friends. It wasn't to allow players to grind out 20th completions in a few days. This would add a much needed healthy lifespan to raiding content.

In the meantime, it wouldn't require much work for the devs to give us an endgame with what we have now. Simply scale the ebberon raids up to level 30 on epic elite (maybe scale up EH a bit as well, keep EN as is for casual players) and implement a new raid currency which drops from all raid chests. Allow this currency to be turned in for all kinds of goodies that make me want to stay at cap. Add in a few attractive new pieces of loot in each raid.

If the community freaks out over a bypass timer nerf, then atleast make it so the new raid currency drops only once per 3 days to discourage raid farming.

Done. Would not require a whole update's worth of work.

[zaphear]

Game needs an Epic Shroud that lets you craft lvl 20 Green Steel..


And since when have they added low level content? Last I checked they've only released level 15+ for literal years.

[IBCrabin]

Difficult to build up "end game" content with the raise in cap level every year. Each level cap increased makes the old raids too easy or gear obsolete.

To make raid gear meaningful and unique, they can keep certain modifiers only available in Raid gear. i.e. 60 Healing amplication, artifact bonus, 9 to 12% double strike, +25 skills, insightful prr/mrr. +11 ability score +4 insightful

Quest gears are limited to: +10 ability score, 6% double strike, 20 skill, 40 healing amplication, +2 insightful, and so forth

As for the raid system and people running EN completions for 20th list. They can implement a saga type point system to encourage people to run on EH and EE.

20 EE completions = full named on on the 20th list
20 EH completions = 70% named on the 20th list
20 EN completions = 40% named on the 20th list

I would like to see new content named items being Auction-able again. People that don't have the time to farm for gear has an alternative to acquiring gear. With the current drop rate, the price on Auction house and Shard exchange wouldn't be excessively high like they were during epic Giant hold era.

[Gljosh]

Ideally to achieve a true sense of "Endgame", DDO needs to STOP INCREASING LEVEL CAP.

Before Motu (level 20) end game was Shroud, Abbott, ToD, Epic Von, Epic Chrono, Epic DQ, and the other non-raid Epic quests.

Post Motu (level 25), before Shadowfell, end game was CitW.

Post Shadowfell (level 28), end game is MoD and the double dragon raids.

So we went from 6 raids down to 3 and a bunch of fairly tough quests (pre Motu Epics were difficult but achievable in a group) to EN/EH and sometimes EE being easy to moderately difficult in a group. The game stayed the same but the players got much stronger, EDs, more feats, Epic Past Lives, Iconic Past Lives, Epic Stances, Iconic Stances, roll over tomes, more stat bonus styles, higher stat bonuses, Enhancement Pass, etc. The game failed to keep pace, think tortoise vs the hare...only this time the hare has access to the speed force.

If they made Vale and Shavarath level 28 Epic (base) and skipped going to level 30, we could be ok until the massive dragon based expansion hits...

[Kamode_Corebasher]

We had a viable end game at level 20 cap, so not sure what you're trying to say. Yes it was advertised as temporary and that we'd eventually go into epic levels but I like many others assumed we'd get another end game, and heck maybe even better than 20 cap. Thing's honestly only took a big misstep with Shadowfell, level 25 cap wasn't spectacular but was still pretty decent. You had some reason to stay at level 25 at least.

28 cap is the worst, nothing requires you to be 28, too many incentives to eTR instead of think about staying level 28(clear ransack, raid timers, extra PLs, etc.), quests are so easy now that you're better off doing them when you get XP from them(TR) and probably other things.

Also I've said it before but might as well say it again, all these updates that are being released before 30 cap better have a level 30 cap component ready to roll when it comes. level 30 3BC better be ready, level 30 madness thingy better be ready, new and improved level 30 necro(tome/shield of legends please) better be ready. No one want just a new difficulty with only say 4 quests and a raid to get the ball rolling, the ball should be rolling behind the scenes right now.

Agreed about all the lvl21 and above content having a lvl30 version ready to roll for the endgame lvl30 cap that's coming.

[psykopeta]

i have a better idea for endgame, as other mmorpg do!

1st release a raid hard enough, that can't be completed by any guild in days, even weeks
2nd put the awesome super uber loot on it, every players wants it because it has +1 to previous loot
3rd wait time, what about 6 month?

and go to 1st point again! and you know what? people loves it, specially because when they release the new content, there're LOTS (if not most) players who haven't succeeded on that raid

but that's DDO, won't work because:
1st point, players don't want challenges, nor hard things, the easier the better, people are asking for more nerf to champions, just saying
2nd point players don't want farming gear, that's why you will always see things like "guaranteed on 20th run, drop rate sucks, etc" players do/don't like powercreep
3rd if ddo devs released really new content every 6 months, DDO would have crashed under the feet of bugs, what we see is... heroic content made epic, or content that is not low, i mean, everything has been aimed to iconic and higher lvl toons, they even touched the xp curve, all for the same thing: to make tr'ing easier


however what ddo could do to attract more players is adding more f2p quests or doing new accounts have access during 1 week? to most stuff, that's how you attract players, if you tell me that game is good and i need 80$ to try it, i won't try it sorry

what ddo could do as other mmorpg is removing the f2p/premium, and go subs/vips, in that case i would quit cause i've already purchased all the content

or they could leave it full f2p, and add hardcore p2w, in that case i would stay cause i don't care what other players do or get

in any case, what is sure is that ddo can't compete with any other mmorpg, just look at the player base, is smaller than most browser games, even flash games have more players roflmao

[Gljosh]

i have a better idea for endgame, as other mmorpg do!

1st release a raid hard enough, that can't be completed by any guild in days, even weeks
2nd put the awesome super uber loot on it, every players wants it because it has +1 to previous loot
3rd wait time, what about 6 month?

and go to 1st point again! and you know what? people loves it, specially because when they release the new content, there're LOTS (if not most) players who haven't succeeded on that raid

but that's DDO, won't work because:
1st point, players don't want challenges, nor hard things, the easier the better, people are asking for more nerf to champions, just saying
2nd point players don't want farming gear, that's why you will always see things like "guaranteed on 20th run, drop rate sucks, etc" players do/don't like powercreep
3rd if ddo devs released really new content every 6 months, DDO would have crashed under the feet of bugs, what we see is... heroic content made epic, or content that is not low, i mean, everything has been aimed to iconic and higher lvl toons, they even touched the xp curve, all for the same thing: to make tr'ing easier


however what ddo could do to attract more players is adding more f2p quests or doing new accounts have access during 1 week? to most stuff, that's how you attract players, if you tell me that game is good and i need 80$ to try it, i won't try it sorry

what ddo could do as other mmorpg is removing the f2p/premium, and go subs/vips, in that case i would quit cause i've already purchased all the content

or they could leave it full f2p, and add hardcore p2w, in that case i would stay cause i don't care what other players do or get

in any case, what is sure is that ddo can't compete with any other mmorpg, just look at the player base, is smaller than most browser games, even flash games have more players roflmao

So we need to make DDO a version of "Blank"ville?

DDO had a decent endgame and the ability to TR...now just the ability to TR with even more tringness (Heroic, Epic, Iconic). Player power creep made the game very easy and "tough" elements got functionally removed (Epic crafting).

As for the REALLY tough raid how about a Tarrasque raid? Or an area similar to the Mabar/Treasure Cove event areas (areas that can hold more than 12 people) featuring Devils and Demons, with Archdevils, and Pit Fiends. Or a true Xoriat raid with all manner of Beholder (Gauths, etc.), anti magic and abilities to neutralize magic abilities of items, turn the most uber gear into the base item.

[phillymiket]

Old mmos attract new players by existing players convincing others that this game that they haven't played in the last 8 years is a hidden gem they should try! But that isn't happening here as many old players leave the game each day.

Yes, so true.
DDO won't have the big splash articles about it's new content in the media because the game is older.
DDO should have instead worked on playing up the word of mouth, hidden gem thing.
We should be the game that has the best core features and combat that is a counter-point to the 'new style' of games.
We should be the cool, old-school game that may not look as good but plays really well.

That ship has sailed, unfortunately.
I highly doubt Turbine will invest the cash needed to fix the lag and bugs because the broke has been allowed to build up to a point where it doesn't even make sense to fix it, from WB/Turbine point of view.
Such a shame.

How can I possibly tell my friends that DDO is still the best when it is so broken?

DDO is like a highway that leads to a dead end, you can loop around at the dead end and start back at the begining but ultimately there's no reason to, and once you've done it a few times you start wondering why you're bothering. Endgame is like putting a amusement park at the end of the highway..

Yeah, it's true.
I keep TRing.
I got one toon PLed up. Got another. Now I'm on third. As well as half a dozen toons with 2 or 3 PLs.
At some point I'm going to run out of Gimps to TR.
What then?

You're totally right. We need Wally World at cap.
We need quests and raids at cap that are centered around being fun and repeatable - not because you need the phlog or w/e - but because they are fun.
I can't stay at cap these days because it's mind numbing to do so.
Three raids, FoT, FoTP, MoD that are basically set in one big room, and two, CitW, TotDW, that would be fairly interesting except they are filled with annoying/broken features and to top it off the game can't even seemingly handle the two raids without freezing up!

We need some Wally World - House of Mirrors area with a variety of quests/raids/challenges that can keep our interest, if not indefinitely, at least long enough to give a counter to TRing.
They also need to figure out some unlocks and a new tier of gear/rewards for lv 30 that doesn't break the lower levels.
And they have to fix the game so the servers won't go down in flames all the time.
Man, do they have a lot of work to do to get an end game.

/hold breath