Showing respect your fellow player

[Lonnbeimnech]

Thank you for validating my feelings, that is precisely what I want my fellow players to understand. Life is complicated as it is, the game is an avenue for us for all sorts of reasons, whatever they may be. Let's dignify our actions and keep it real and meaningful. And HAVE FUN !

[MeliCat]

My main alt is Seraphicus (Human FvS) from a very long standing guild SAGE. I have been a player on Devourer, EU Server since 2006. Most importantly, I am a female player (in Ghallanda).

Since my close-knit guild stopped playing, I have had the opportunity to meet many players through active pugging. I have made many new friends, formed my own close-knit channel of people whom I call friends in game. They show me respect 24/7, 365 days a year. Because, like them, I am a avid player in DDO.

I have many positive feedback, those people who have been kind enough to compliment, I will always remember you. And a woman's memory is rather long-standing; or dangerous as some might put it.

But sadly, I have had, also, slack thrown at me, simply because I am female. Let me cite some examples :

"You're a girl, what do you know"
"Go run along beach, that's what you're good for"

and some more which if printed here, would bring forth this post itself removed because they are just so low and disgusting.

Am I griefing ? Am I a feminist ?

I don't feel I am because I have put up with some of the most lowest RL people who feel that a woman is nothing more useful than being in a kitchen. P/S : I always retort with "Well if your woman's always in the kitchen then you definitely don't know what to do as a man".

I have had friends tell me :
"Oh just ignore them. Don't let them get the better of you or they win". or
"Is that it ? I thought it was serious when you said you were upset".
"To play the game you need to have a thick skin. Otherwise, don't play."

DDO (and any other MMORPG games) is dominated by majority male players. But, at NO point should we disrespect ANY other human being simply because of gender, race, sexual orientation, IQ level or age. Behind that computer screen IS a human being OMG.

I speak especially for the female players out there, who encounter griefing and slack just because we are female. All I can say is : hold your dignity high and be proud to be woman. Don't let a game or anyone else tell you otherwise.

Narrow minded callous comments callously passed targeted at anyone should never be dismissed, don't ignore how your fellow player feels, don't dismiss us "just-because".

It was only recently in a raid I encountered 2 such players that I decided to write this post; when no one else in that raid felt they wanted to stand up for me, not say anything at all in my defence. I am tired of being silent and unheard. I am woman, hear me ROAR !

2015 is approaching. Stay the REAL person you are, fellow gamers, be true to your principles, treat everyone with love and respect. We shouldn't need a forum thread to remind us to, but sometimes maybe we do. Stay real and have a good gaming 2015 ahead.

C.

Alts : Seraphicus / Caireen / Nehalennia / Cyhiraeth / Antiopeia / Atlanteia / Calliopea / Nefyn / Setlocenia

You have no idea how much I needed to hear this right now Thank you thank you thank you

There used to be more female players around. But lately everywhere I play there is less and less. And now I am really starting to feel how much a minority I am. And every time I open my mouth in a pug I get sideways comments. Often it's nothing I could officially complain about, but it just makes me uncomfortable. And I just want to play and not deal with that. So I have this choice to remain voiceless so I don't have to deal with that :/

But I don't want to remain voiceless. I want to be able to talk naturally and have it be no big deal. It's good to be reminded to just to try to do so regardless of how I may be treated. To try and treat others the way I should, regardless of how they treat me.

But oh man I miss my fellow female players It feels like there is less and less these days.

[Braegan]

I don't care if you are targeting women, new players, role players, elite zergers, etc.

If you are a nasty, mean spirited, griefing person that enjoys making other people uncormfortable then I have no room for you in any groups.

[MeliCat]

Our gender rarely has ANYTHING to do with it, bad humans and uncivilized humans have EVERYTHING to do with it. Not every insult towards a woman is the response of sexism. Not EVERY guy is sexist. Not every act of stupidity has sexism laced behind it. To keep thinking that it must be that way is selling things short. It's looking for a battle that simply might not be there. We keep looking for this vile sexist beast and think that all men are prone to it. Fun fact...most of them are not and we need to stop treating them like they constantly are.

? Maybe it just doesn't happen to you? Do you pug much? When you pug is there just you or are you usually surrounded by your guildies and are you usually all the best players in the pug?

It's more a case of you're playing along happily, doing your best in whatever quest/raid, and then someone makes a comment. And it's a comment that is sexist. So what do you do? Ignore it and grow a thick skin? Sometimes. But every so often it's like you've just had enough of this BS. Or do you say something? I agree with you that playing the gender card is going to make it worse. But if you say something and the only grounds on which they are being unplesant is the sexism then in saying something you have to point out the gender stuff. So it's just easier just not to say anything mostly. And so it continues. Or you just say nothing and remain voiceless.

Being in the power position of a top notch player maybe you don't experience this much. If you're more middling and isolated then you get it every so often. Mostly it's just ignore and more on is the best way to deal though. Moving on could mean just not playing the game of course. Working in STEM I've done a bit of reading on this topic. Apparently 30% is the tipping point where being a minority becomes no big deal. We don't have that here.

[MadCookieQueen]

? Maybe it just doesn't happen to you? Do you pug much? When you pug is there just you or are you usually surrounded by your guildies and are you usually all the best players in the pug?

Oddly enough...I am not immune to it happening, even when the hubby is in the same party. The things I've heard and shot back at would have me banned from this forum in a heartbeat, if I dared repeated any of it. Yet, many of those times being insulted, it wasn't solely on the basis that I'm female, it was solely on the shoulders of the jerk who thought it was worth their time to insult me.

That's the point. Yes, I'm a woman and yes, on occasion I get insulted or harassed but the two are not always linked to each other. Bad humans are bad humans for whatever reason and it is NOT always centered around my gender.

We can't say that something that might be less than 1% of the issue is the entire 100% of the issue. (I have no idea on numbers, just making a point) I don't understand the automatic thought line that just because some moron decided to insult me, the first reaction absolutely has to be "well it's because I'm a female." No, the truth is far more boring...that person is a jerk for whatever reason and the reason could be as something as lame as "I died and that player was near me and I hate that player for not healing me fast enough"

I'm not saying sexism doesn't happen in gaming, it does, but we can't keep saying that it is the only thing that happens.

It's more a case of you're playing along happily, doing your best in whatever quest/raid, and then someone makes a comment. And it's a comment that is sexist. So what do you do? Ignore it and grow a thick skin? Sometimes. But every so often it's like you've just had enough of this BS. Or do you say something? I agree with you that playing the gender card is going to make it worse. But if you say something and the only grounds on which they are being unplesant is the sexism then in saying something you have to point out the gender stuff. So it's just easier just not to say anything mostly. And so it continues. Or you just say nothing and remain voiceless.

What I do and what other people do when confronted with a sexist remark are entirely different. My way of handling it, is not going to work for everyone and it is not the only way to handle a problem. It also really depends on the situation. Sometimes firing back makes sense and sometimes letting it roll off your back makes sense.

Sorry, I can't give you a definitive answer as their isn't one and there isn't one cookie cutter piece of advice that works for everyone. Sometimes you can run from the bully and be okay and sometimes you have to pop the bully right in the nose.

Being in the power position of a top notch player maybe you don't experience this much. If you're more middling and isolated then you get it every so often. Mostly it's just ignore and more on is the best way to deal though. Moving on could mean just not playing the game of course. Working in STEM I've done a bit of reading on this topic. Apparently 30% is the tipping point where being a minority becomes no big deal. We don't have that here.

I am not in a protected class...trust me. I take more crud from "elitist" players than I do from almost anyone else and it's not because of my gender.

Moving on could mean not playing DDO, but that doesn't solve much of anything. It'll just trade in one group of people's insults for another's.

Again...as long as we have humans...we will have issues.

[MeliCat]

That's the point. Yes, I'm a woman and yes, on occasion I get insulted or harassed but the two are not always linked to each other. Bad humans are bad humans for whatever reason and it is NOT always centered around my gender.

We can't say that something that might be less than 1% of the issue is the entire 100% of the issue. (I have no idea on numbers, just making a point) I don't understand the automatic thought line that just because some moron decided to insult me, the first reaction absolutely has to be "well it's because I'm a female." No, the truth is far more boring...that person is a jerk for whatever reason and the reason could be as something as lame as "I died and that player was near me and I hate that player for not healing me fast enough"

I, and I'm fairly sure other women too, rarely conclude that my gender is the first issue why that person is being an ass. However regardless of reasons why, if their response is a gendered response, well that is another level of being an ass.

I am always going to take a non gendered response at face value. I am not a mind reader and am a fairly direct person myself. And it's easiest just to conclude if it's not a gendered response then their general demeanour being an ass is for some other reason obvious or not. Like they're just a bully, or I am indeed playing badly and they're upset with that, or they've just had a bad day or whatever.

I am not a "victim". I am tired of this BS. I manage it by either not having to manage it (ie, not playing or not using my voice so people don't know I'm female so it doesn't happen) or by tolerating it or by saying something very directly to point it out in an attempt to stop it (which often doesn't work because they don't "hear" me), or saying it indirectly because I just can't work out how to say it in a way that's actually going to be heard and actually understood and that particular individual I have to continue dealing with (if I keep playing that is).

I just want to play at the end of the day. It would be nice to have the occasional friend in game who "gets it". Who understands what it's like to be the minority. Who understands that while this is just a game, and the comments are mostly harmless, that a million little pinpricks over a sustained period of time just really really really hurt the soul, mind and spirit.

It would be nice to have such soul friends in game. But at the moment I'm going through a period where I don't really. Although there are lots of lovely lovely people around who I meet every day - so they kind of make up for it.

[Saekee]

I am always sorry to learn about harrassment. I encourage players to report harrassers and squelch them.

It might help females to know more about male behavior. Eve Sedgwick coined the term 'homosocial' to explain how some males will bond emotionally with each other by abusing females. They do not feel comfortable emotionally bonding directly as that would either imply (or lead to) a homosexual encounter. So they 'use' a female third party in some fashion to complete their relationship. It is a triangle built upon an intense love for other males but at the cost of demeaning females.

I write this to alert you that the 'audience' for some measure of demeaning/harrassing behavior is actually not so much the female victim but other males. In context, the harrassing male in question is emotionally needy, repressed, and should take a long look in the mirror in terms of the gender he really finds emtionally supportive.

[phillymiket]

Hey Seraphicus,

Sorry for your troubles.

Unfortunately, the people who do this stuff, and I've observed it as well, either rationalize what they say, want to be hurtful, or just don't care.

So there is no lesson for them. They will just continue to be *** ***** until they get banned. /report does get people banned or vacation time, so at least there is that.

Maybe what can come out of this thread, is that all us men who aren't *** ***** should appreciate the issue and realize, given gamergate n stuff as of late, that now is not the time for edgy jokes to women we don't know. There is plenty in this world to laugh and joke about that we don't need the 'get me a sammich' jokes unless you are **** sure the person knows you are 'making fun of that kind of thing' or whatever your intentions were for saying it.

Also we could be sure to also not engage or have tolerance for sexism - any 'ism' - even when there isn't a women or whoever around to be offended.

See you in G-land, and Happy New Year to you and all of SAGE :-)

[MeliCat]

I am always sorry to learn about harrassment. I encourage players to report harrassers and squelch them.

It might help females to know more about male behavior. Eve Sedgwick coined the term 'homosocial' to explain how some males will bond emotionally with each other by abusing females. They do not feel comfortable emotionally bonding directly as that would either imply (or lead to) a homosexual encounter. So they 'use' a female third party in some fashion to complete their relationship. It is a triangle built upon an intense love for other males but at the cost of demeaning females.

I write this to alert you that the 'audience' for some measure of demeaning/harrassing behavior is actually not so much the female victim but other males. In context, the harrassing male in question is emotionally needy, repressed, and should take a long look in the mirror in terms of the gender he really finds emtionally supportive.

Oh good grief. No I hadn't heard of that term or meaning. I kind of wish I hadn't now too :/ Far out. It's stuff like this that makes me wish I didn't like such "male" past times, that I didn't have such a "male" job. I am so tired of this.

Reporting and squelching are just no go very often for a lot of obvious reasons. There is harassing and then there is harassing. And people are often surprised at how much people will put up with before they report.

[nibel]

As far as gender bias: There always will be. And this will sound sexist. But it is pure biology. In the primal sense, men are always ready to reproduce. Their hormones are always on. This is not true for all men, but 99% of them it is. Women have a fluctuating hormone level for reproductive purposes. As such, their whole outlook on everything is different then a mans. This isn't true for all women, but 99% of them. Because of these two differences, men always come off more aggressively when it comes to women and reproductive activities, where as women have been in a sexual world when their mind and body was not seeking reproduction. And because of that, men typically are crude and base and women are sophisticated and subtle. Also women tend to filter their emotions and actions because of this. Whereas men don't see a reason to do that because of their hormone state, and typically don't.

The myth that men have more sexual desires than women is very recent, like the blue-pink association with genders. Ironic enough, a few centuries ago, it was reversed, and women were believed to not be kept in charge of anything because of their "lu****l mind", and men had the self-control to not be sexual beasts.

Anyway, this is a socially constructed lie, and you would do a favor to everyone to stop spreading it.

[zwiebelring]

Trash talk is common use. Mostly in groups, where everyboy knows each other well. There is no difference between men and women. And well, this gender trashing goes both ways. But anyway it is just talk. You have the option of leaving the group, reporting harrassment and communication in general like: Stop that please. You can change the tone, words or level of eloquence but the meaning can be told without any forum thread about respect whatsoever.

[Sofianna]

Trash talk is common use. Mostly in groups, where everyboy knows each other well. There is no difference between men and women. And well, this gender trashing goes both ways. But anyway it is just talk. You have the option of leaving the group, reporting harrassment and communication in general like: Stop that please. You can change the tone, words or level of eloquence but the meaning can be told without any forum thread about respect whatsoever.

1. I don't know that person who "trash talked" me, it was not provoked in any manner. I certainly do not approve of trash talking anyone in a party nor raid party, ESPECIALLY pure pug where I don't know anyone.

2. I had a raid item that was non tradeable, to ragequit and leave unprofessionally is definetly not my playstyle. Other raid members do not have to penalized for the 2 persons who trashed talked to me.

3. I did say as calmly as possible to mind their manners, that I find it rude to call me a female dog for no apparent reason, especially when I do not know them at all. And I certainly did not "trash talk back" at all even though they were first to fling insults at me.

So YES, in all accounts, even after a harassment report, I would, and did feel, that a forum thread was necessary. I need to speak for myself and many players out there, that such singularly bullying has zero tolerance; that we should and must respect our fellow players on all accounts, contrary to what you feel is acceptable.

[Kawai]

Trash talk is common use.

pls... show of hands if u... "trash-talk"... while playing DDO?

There is no difference between men and women.

:|

But anyway it is just talk. You have the option of leaving the group, reporting harrassment and communication in general like: Stop that please.

ahhh so it's target-victims responsibility?!
tyvm, Earl.
what a load off!

...but the meaning can be told without any forum thread about respect whatsoever.

smh

[Livmo]

SNIP

I'm very sorry to hear about your experince.

It's a shame that people can say and do bad things and hide behind a monitor. I can assure you some of the comments and griefing I've received on various servers would not have taken place in RL.

I know at times it can get under your skin.

Thank you for making your post. Strong work.

The grass is not greener on other servers.

I hope you have a better year in 2015 and I hope DDO does too.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

There are two sure-fire ways to get people to reveal what kind of jerks they really are: get them drunk, or talk to them on the Internet.

[Monkey-Boy]

There are two sure-fire ways to get people to reveal what kind of jerks they really are: get them drunk, or talk to them on the Internet.

This is why I like to save time and just get drunk while on the internet.

[Seikojin]

The myth that men have more sexual desires than women is very recent, like the blue-pink association with genders. Ironic enough, a few centuries ago, it was reversed, and women were believed to not be kept in charge of anything because of their "lu****l mind", and men had the self-control to not be sexual beasts.

Anyway, this is a socially constructed lie, and you would do a favor to everyone to stop spreading it.

Well so is psychology too; if you compare it to the existence of human beings. Annnd I did not say men are always horny and women are not. I am pointing out that peoples perception of a males libido or a females libido is that: Perception. Individual to that person and no one else. Like yours is different than someone else's. So I do not see how I am spreading a lie.

[skorpeon]

Hey just to let any female player know there are many of us male players that love having you here. One of my best recent experiences (G-land) was when we had two women very active in my pug chat as we ran through Wheelon. It was one of my best pugging experiences! They were chatty and helpful and made the whole evening a pleasant and fun one.

I wish every evening was like that and if I heard any one being offended in a group I would speak up. I am no power player but I do know how I like to be treated and expect others to do the same to others.

Respect
Tym

[Tesrali]

So Caireen how good is your wi-fi in the kitchen?

Kiss my Bar

lolziepants

[Inoukchuk]

pls... show of hands if u... "trash-talk"... while playing DDO?



:|



ahhh so it's target-victims responsibility?!
tyvm, Earl.
what a load off!



smh

This is not as black and white as you are making it.

I'll give some parallel examples:
I'm a very affectionate person. I'm known to my friends and family as a great hugger and good cuddler. My girlfriend has repeatedly told me the one of the things she loves about me is how affectionate I am. On the other hand , one of my friends is married to a gal that treats me like I'm a walking sexual assault because I had the nerve to hug her when we first met. It's a rare case, but it's there. Most of the time you can get a sense from someone from a first hug if they are comfortable with that/you and adjust from there (similar to flirting, if you know what to look for), but until you take that first step you don't know.

Every time anyone (particularly men) flirt with someone, ask someone out, etc they run the risk of it being unwelcome... but you don't know til you try. If you flirt with a girl at work you may get a date/GF/wife (my ex GF recently married a co-worker)... or you may get a sexual harassment accusation because that's how she perceived it. Much of this comes down to being alert and sensitive to your delivery and how it's received, but some small measure of it is also out of your control and dependent on the other person.

So to answer your question, yes, I occasionally trash talk on line and in DDO. I mostly limit it to friends and people that have shown they share my style of humor, and I never take it in a hazing or unfriendly direction. If I ran into you online I would get to know you a little first.... if you are sassy I would probably trash talk you some (and you'd probably like it). But not everyone is equally gifted at judging other people and if they judge wrong, or are bad at delivery, it could be taken badly.

With this in mind I do think that as the target/audience we have a responsibility to have a least a little bit of a thick skin and offer the benefit of the doubt where possible.

That's not to say everything you've gotten has been well intentioned, likely some of it wasn't. For those there is no excuse, but there is also a fine probability that you would have had issues with them regardless of gender. I just want to illustrate that these social interaction issues are not as black and white as they seem, or as people often want to make them. It's ....complicated