Showing respect your fellow player

[Sofianna]

My main alt is Seraphicus (Human FvS) from a very long standing guild SAGE. I have been a player on Devourer, EU Server since 2006. Most importantly, I am a female player (in Ghallanda).

Since my close-knit guild stopped playing, I have had the opportunity to meet many players through active pugging. I have made many new friends, formed my own close-knit channel of people whom I call friends in game. They show me respect 24/7, 365 days a year. Because, like them, I am a avid player in DDO.

I have many positive feedback, those people who have been kind enough to compliment, I will always remember you. And a woman's memory is rather long-standing; or dangerous as some might put it.

But sadly, I have had, also, slack thrown at me, simply because I am female. Let me cite some examples :

"You're a girl, what do you know"
"Go run along beach, that's what you're good for"

and some more which if printed here, would bring forth this post itself removed because they are just so low and disgusting.

Am I griefing ? Am I a feminist ?

I don't feel I am because I have put up with some of the most lowest RL people who feel that a woman is nothing more useful than being in a kitchen. P/S : I always retort with "Well if your woman's always in the kitchen then you definitely don't know what to do as a man".

I have had friends tell me :
"Oh just ignore them. Don't let them get the better of you or they win". or
"Is that it ? I thought it was serious when you said you were upset".
"To play the game you need to have a thick skin. Otherwise, don't play."

DDO (and any other MMORPG games) is dominated by majority male players. But, at NO point should we disrespect ANY other human being simply because of gender, race, sexual orientation, IQ level or age. Behind that computer screen IS a human being OMG.

I speak especially for the female players out there, who encounter griefing and slack just because we are female. All I can say is : hold your dignity high and be proud to be woman. Don't let a game or anyone else tell you otherwise.

Narrow minded callous comments callously passed targeted at anyone should never be dismissed, don't ignore how your fellow player feels, don't dismiss us "just-because".

It was only recently in a raid I encountered 2 such players that I decided to write this post; when no one else in that raid felt they wanted to stand up for me, not say anything at all in my defence. I am tired of being silent and unheard. I am woman, hear me ROAR !

2015 is approaching. Stay the REAL person you are, fellow gamers, be true to your principles, treat everyone with love and respect. We shouldn't need a forum thread to remind us to, but sometimes maybe we do. Stay real and have a good gaming 2015 ahead.

C.

Alts : Seraphicus / Caireen / Nehalennia / Cyhiraeth / Antiopeia / Atlanteia / Calliopea / Nefyn / Setlocenia

[JOTMON]

If someone is offending you..
[rightclick] report player.
from what I have seen DDO is pretty good at dealing with harassment

While I am not a female.. there are several that play on Argo and even families that play.
Our channels are full of EE endgame female players, even in LFM/PUG runs I don't see players criticize/judge a female player for their gender.. they would be dropped/blocked pretty quickly if the did.

I am sure there are discriminations occurring, even though we are in modern times there are many people that have been raised with medieval mindsets.
These people generally get educated relatively quickly, or leave the game... from what I see there is not much tolerance for that kid of activity here.

[Sofianna]

If someone is offending you..
[rightclick] report player.
from what I have seen DDO is pretty good at dealing with harassment

A ticket was reported, as with all my other similar activity related tickets against racism, sexism and cyber-bulling in game. And the only reply is the standard reply stating they will deal with the player(s) reported.

I still always see those players in game, even following the ticket reported; they remain in-game actively playing. To me, I do not see the problem tackled. Devs, how do I know you take bullying seriously, or not at all ?

[MadCookieQueen]

Let's take a moment of honesty...women tend to be more snarky against other female players. We know we are hardcore but really don't want to deal with the "girlfriend who plays" or the "chick is only there to pike because she flirts with the guild leader". So many times in groups with other women that are unknown, the first thought usually goes along those lines.

Many times they are validated and some times they aren't. I like the times they aren't and have groaned when they are. I admit I've gone off on a couple of the more useless ones. (Usually I'm in one of those modes to begin with and my tolerance is on short supply)

So before the blame is assigned to all the males for such things, we have to look at the flip side. We chicks tend to be harder on our gender than they could ever be. Why? Because of two things...women inherently have issues with each other, it goes with the hormones and two we seriously don't want a flake to bring us a bad name as good players. One ditzy piker and people will become jaded towards a female player for a while.

I admit I read this post and started rolling my eyes at it but I get the point. I just despise the whole automatic gender association, I feel the same way about race. In the end I think it makes us look weak, especially to own gender to throw that up first and foremost. This is where femi-nazis get this all wrong, you want to empower people to be fairer to each other, leave the ovaries at home and speak to the actual issue at hand. The fact is, some people are just plain jerks and your gender has nothing to do with it, as soon as we pull the chick card...they rattled our cage and it's game over.

Should we be nicer to each other as human beings? You betcha! Should we have a bit more respect for the feelings of the human behind the screen? Yep. Do we all know this? That we do.


so in the end what's the problem?

It's called the human condition and it has no gender, race, religion, sexual orientation assigned to it...it just simply is, human. We can strive to be better humans and get over the human condition, the first step is the hardest...leave the qualifiers at home and simply look at the issue.

[Inoukchuk]

What a shame. Some of my favorite players are women, I would be very sad if this kind of behavior chased them off.

The reality is, anytime you get more than about 10 people in one place, especially random people, 1 or more is almost certain to be a jerk. In a game with thousands of players on each server, we will all inevitably run into our fare share of jerks, regardless of what demographic we each fall in. Likely, they would have been a jerk to you regardless of your gender, being female just made it easier for them to pick a button to push. Hopefully you won't let the few bad apples, in any venue, dissuade you from pursuing the things you find enriching, important, or just fun.

[Inoukchuk]

Let's take a moment of honesty...women tend to be more snarky against other female players. We know we are hardcore but really don't want to deal with the "girlfriend who plays" or the "chick is only there to pike because she flirts with the guild leader". So many times in groups with other women that are unknown, the first thought usually goes along those lines.

Many times they are validated and some times they aren't. I like the times they aren't and have groaned when they are. I admit I've gone off on a couple of the more useless ones. (Usually I'm in one of those modes to begin with and my tolerance is on short supply)

So before the blame is assigned to all the males for such things, we have to look at the flip side. We chicks tend to be harder on our gender than they could ever be. Why? Because of two things...women inherently have issues with each other, it goes with the hormones and two we seriously don't want a flake to bring us a bad name as good players. One ditzy piker and people will become jaded towards a female player for a while.

I admit I read this post and started rolling my eyes at it but I get the point. I just despise the whole automatic gender association, I feel the same way about race. In the end I think it makes us look weak, especially to own gender to throw that up first and foremost. This is where femi-nazis get this all wrong, you want to empower people to be fairer to each other, leave the ovaries at home and speak to the actual issue at hand. The fact is, some people are just plain jerks and your gender has nothing to do with it, as soon as we pull the chick card...they rattled our cage and it's game over.

Should we be nicer to each other as human beings? You betcha! Should we have a bit more respect for the feelings of the human behind the screen? Yep. Do we all know this? That we do.


so in the end what's the problem?

It's called the human condition and it has no gender, race, religion, sexual orientation assigned to it...it just simply is, human. We can strive to be better humans and get over the human condition, the first step is the hardest...leave the qualifiers at home and simply look at the issue.

+1, good post

[JOTMON]

A ticket was reported, as with all my other similar activity related tickets against racism, sexism and cyber-bulling in game. And the only reply is the standard reply stating they will deal with the player(s) reported.

I still always see those players in game, even following the ticket reported; they remain in-game actively playing. To me, I do not see the problem tackled. Devs, how do I know you take bullying seriously, or not at all ?

its a tough topic,
I would say in general players are more open minded here.. DDO tends to draw a more mature crowd.
There will always be people that players will conflict with, and I am sure they will not be able to cure every male of all our failings.

you should be less concerned about seeing them in game, not everyone will be auto banned because they may have offended you.
Just because you still see them in game doesn't mean they didn't get a warning or reprimand.
If they really have put you off.. then you should be /squelch ing them.


A lot of guys talk trash, but that s all it is .. talk..
Some girls are very "girly" and easily offended by any comment even if its not intentional or directed.. most guys just say words and there is no meaning or intent behind them that some girls may read too deeply into.
Some girls could make me cry in a war of words..
narrowing down directed intentional attacks is what needs to be identified and dealt with.. like the stalker types..

Some aspects of grow a thicker skin may or may not be relevant.. at the end of the day its just a game, so you shouldn't take anything personally.
The good thing about this game is you don't have to play with people you don't like., a simple .. /squelch.

[Sofianna]

I would like to add that I, in no way provoked nor cat clawed at anyone to warrant such feelings that drove me to write the post. PST in game I will send you a screenie as proof if desired.

All I wanted to put across was simply : respect people, don't diss "shrug" them, be mindful about what you say and how you want to put your message across.

Yes, this may be a game, yes I do know the difference with RL and in-game and yes, squelch is my best friend.

Lest we forge, the point being, there is a human being behind computer screen.

[DedAngel]

Many guys talk smack with their guy friends. Then they make the mistake of getting comfortable with a woman friend and talk smack to her, thinking they are being friendly and treating her as an equal and one of the guys.

She thinks it's harassment based on her gender, gets him black-listed, reported, banned, then sends an email to his wife, and calls his job and reports him to his boss, and writes an op-ed piece to Jezebel about her triumph over misogynistic persecution, then updates her blog...

[MadCookieQueen]

Many guys talk smack with their guy friends. Then they make the mistake of getting comfortable with a woman friend and talk smack to her, thinking they are being friendly and treating her as an equal and one of the guys.

She thinks it's harassment based on her gender, gets him black-listed, reported, banned, then sends an email to his wife, and calls his job and reports him to his boss, and writes an op-ed piece to Jezebel about her triumph over misogynistic persecution, then updates her blog...

This might be a bit over the top, but that's probably the point. Also most of us girl gamers know when a friend of ours is just giving us flack like the rest of the group, no gender assignment needed. Of course, like any good friend we can and will shoot it right back at you ;p

I personally think that Jezebel is one of the worse things to happen to women on the internet. I avoid it like the plague and have been happier for it ^^

[Seikojin]

I have seen poor behavior before and I have seen poor behavior get some form of punishment as well. From both sides of the screen (as support and as a player).

To the OP: Those people who harassed you and were reported; did they continue to harass you a week after you reported them? If not, then I think something was said to make them back off. If so, they are worse than someone who gets a GM notice saying you have a strike against you, stop being a rude player, and stops harassing people for a while.

As a male player, I typically get no harassment. I said typically because there have been some cases where women were making passes at me in a non-rp fashion and didn't take no for an answer. I squelched them for a month. That stopped that. I also had guys made passes at me and didn't get the clue either. Again, squelching them for a month stopped the passes.

I figure is someone sees me standing right in front of them, they try to send a sexual emote or some sort of banter, and get an auto reply or nothing back, then they get the clue that I squelched them.

In once case someone who was squelched, then unsquelched, saw me, sent a tell, I replied back, and they eventually asked why I squelched them. I told them in a straight, non-offensive way that they were harassing me in an inappropriate manner and they apologized. We didn't become besties or bros, but they thanked me because not knowing is a pain I know very well and they did too.

Overall, I try to give players respect and ignore 90% of the banter that I take as too much for any given situation. So far in game and in life, it has helped get past a lot of problems.

As far as gender bias: There always will be. And this will sound sexist. But it is pure biology. In the primal sense, men are always ready to reproduce. Their hormones are always on. This is not true for all men, but 99% of them it is. Women have a fluctuating hormone level for reproductive purposes. As such, their whole outlook on everything is different then a mans. This isn't true for all women, but 99% of them. Because of these two differences, men always come off more aggressively when it comes to women and reproductive activities, where as women have been in a sexual world when their mind and body was not seeking reproduction. And because of that, men typically are crude and base and women are sophisticated and subtle. Also women tend to filter their emotions and actions because of this. Whereas men don't see a reason to do that because of their hormone state, and typically don't.

We all have the power to control our behavior and produce a positive experience in game with other people. Even if someone is a rotten apple, diarrhea, sailor mouth.

[henttarl]

Many guys talk smack with their guy friends. Then they make the mistake of getting comfortable with a woman friend and talk smack to her, thinking they are being friendly and treating her as an equal and one of the guys.

She thinks it's harassment based on her gender, gets him black-listed, reported, banned, then sends an email to his wife, and calls his job and reports him to his boss, and writes an op-ed piece to Jezebel about her triumph over misogynistic persecution, then updates her blog...

I think that the main problem is some of the guys doing that aren't exactly "friends" of the abused ppl. pugger isn't the same as friend.

[TrinityTurtle]

OP: The people who tell you "Is that all" or "don't play if you don't have a thick skin" are actually part of the problem. Everyone should be able to expect basic civility from others around them. And the constant "it's nothing" or "you don't belong here if you find unpleasant behavior offensive" validates people acting badly because the group as a whole doesn't want to stand up for doing something right, when it's easier to say just ignore it and make no real consequences for people who behave poorly. Although some I think confuse sexism/racism and trolling, where one is designed deliberately to get a rise out of others and the other is an ingrained belief that other people are less purely based on the gender/race/both they were born, and treated as such.

Report, squelch, and do not put up with it. Eventually it will get better, but not until we as a whole say enough and make it stop.

Let's take a moment of honesty...women tend to be more snarky against other female players. We know we are hardcore but really don't want to deal with the "girlfriend who plays" or the "chick is only there to pike because she flirts with the guild leader". So many times in groups with other women that are unknown, the first thought usually goes along those lines.

Many times they are validated and some times they aren't. I like the times they aren't and have groaned when they are. I admit I've gone off on a couple of the more useless ones. (Usually I'm in one of those modes to begin with and my tolerance is on short supply)

I'm sorry, but this is not okay. Even if they are the girlfriend trying to do something together with her boy, or here to flirt with someone, they are still human beings. It's okay to decide not to interact with them, but to be snarky? No, that's okay. Basic civility when in a group with them is important regardless of our private opinions of the motivations of others. Squelch and ignore them would be best here also.

I admit I read this post and started rolling my eyes at it but I get the point. I just despise the whole automatic gender association, I feel the same way about race. In the end I think it makes us look weak, especially to own gender to throw that up first and foremost. This is where femi-nazis get this all wrong, you want to empower people to be fairer to each other, leave the ovaries at home and speak to the actual issue at hand. The fact is, some people are just plain jerks and your gender has nothing to do with it, as soon as we pull the chick card...they rattled our cage and it's game over.

Saying it's not okay to treat me poorly because she's a woman is NOT playing the chick card. When a person in a group suddenly starts treating me differently than the others (either nastily or as if I'm stupid and need to be cared for every minute) in the group the minute I talk on mic and my gender is known, that is not 'that person is just a jerk'. And our gender has everything to do with it. Doing the whole "Oh, can I have that item because I'm just a girl" would be playing the 'chick' card. But expecting basic manners is everyone's right as a human being, and being a woman, not a 'chick'.

[Daerius of the Blessed Blades]

Most of the jerks who act that way probably just had their ‘hind parts’ handed to them by one of the MILLIONS of girl gamers in Halo, Call of Duty, etc, and they are taking their aggression out on you. Sorry that happens, but there are players out there (shameless plug for my guild, circleofnight.com) that don’t give a darn if you are male, female, transgender, etc – don’t be a jack**, play hard, and have fun and you’re ALWAYS welcome

[Damian]

I wish i was there to defend you C, in this day and age, this has to stop. I am privileged to be part of that closed knit channel and I really enjoy grouping with you and appreciate your patience with me and my optionals :-)

I wish that everyone would respect our fellow players since DDO needs all the players it can get (and stay) to be there a long time.

It is in all our best interest in the end.

Vyral (never L28 for more than 5 seconds)

[Sofianna]

OP: The people who tell you "Is that all" or "don't play if you don't have a thick skin" are actually part of the problem. Everyone should be able to expect basic civility from others around them. And the constant "it's nothing" or "you don't belong here if you find unpleasant behavior offensive" validates people acting badly because the group as a whole doesn't want to stand up for doing something right, when it's easier to say just ignore it and make no real consequences for people who behave poorly. ...
Report, squelch, and do not put up with it. Eventually it will get better, but not until we as a whole say enough and make it stop.

Thank you for validating my feelings, that is precisely what I want my fellow players to understand. Life is complicated as it is, the game is an avenue for us for all sorts of reasons, whatever they may be. Let's dignify our actions and keep it real and meaningful. And HAVE FUN !

[Kawai]

community sprinkled w/#Misogynerds.
sprinkled, i say, as a few, definitely not majority.

although, anyone who honestly believes gender harassment is an artifact of past is srsly naive!
--one only has ta watch 5 min of SSSniperwolf & see how it is today, & totally clsing in @2015!!

many gamerguyz r jerks. fact o' life. :|

i was totally put off using Mic, in this game we all luv, until our Guild (w/ Four fem within) joined up with other Guilds @Channel.
-now all use Mic's without bs or harrassment.

but... i most deff feel for those, like Op, who sometimes still have2 endure.

[Inoukchuk]

Many guys talk smack with their guy friends. Then they make the mistake of getting comfortable with a woman friend and talk smack to her, thinking they are being friendly and treating her as an equal and one of the guys.

She thinks it's harassment based on her gender, gets him black-listed, reported, banned, then sends an email to his wife, and calls his job and reports him to his boss, and writes an op-ed piece to Jezebel about her triumph over misogynistic persecution, then updates her blog...

This can also be true, for sure. Humor doesn't always translate in chat (or even over voice for some), so some good natured ribbing could be completely misconstrued, and some people (not saying this is true of the OP) are prone to assuming things are race/gender related or prone to failing to see sarcastic humor and take things too seriously. No way for me to know here. I remember when I was right out of high school and working as a grocery checker, I had a black man come into my line dressed very professionally. I was friendly and polite, he was cold and unresponsive. I adjusted and stuck to the professional aspects, asked what kind of bags he wanted and was ignored. He refused to respond to anything, like I was beneath his notice, but I blew it off un-phased, quickly and professionally finished the transaction and moved on. Later I get approached by my manager who tells me the guy accused me of being a racist because I put his change on the counter instead of handing it to his hand.... my jaw dropped in disbelief. I guess the guy was a lawyer and wanted me to be fired, my managers of course knew he was totally off base and assured me they were talking to me strictly out of obligation and no punishment would occur because they knew me well enough personally and professionally to know I was nothing like he described. Some people will believe what they want to believe and see what they want/expect to see regardless of if there is any validity to it.

Point being, people on the giving end should be respectful and try to recognize and respect boundaries. People on the receiving end need to recognize that the world is full of D-bags and we need to learn to ignore the mostly harmless ones and deal appropriately (like reporting) with the ones that cross a line. And give the benefit of the doubt when possible.

[MadCookieQueen]

I'm sorry, but this is not okay. Even if they are the girlfriend trying to do something together with her boy, or here to flirt with someone, they are still human beings. It's okay to decide not to interact with them, but to be snarky? No, that's okay. Basic civility when in a group with them is important regardless of our private opinions of the motivations of others. Squelch and ignore them would be best here also.

Did I say it was okay? Did I call them less than human beings? No, I said the first thought when a female player sees another female player tends to run along those veins. I never said it was okay or excusable, but not all offending female bashers are male, we can be just as bad to our own gender. To say otherwise is being dishonest.

Yes, ignoring and squelching would be ideal, but that doesn't take the sting away, especially not if it was something particularly vile, does it?

Saying it's not okay to treat me poorly because she's a woman is NOT playing the chick card. When a person in a group suddenly starts treating me differently than the others (either nastily or as if I'm stupid and need to be cared for every minute) in the group the minute I talk on mic and my gender is known, that is not 'that person is just a jerk'. And our gender has everything to do with it. Doing the whole "Oh, can I have that item because I'm just a girl" would be playing the 'chick' card. But expecting basic manners is everyone's right as a human being, and being a woman, not a 'chick'.

When we come across someone being a jerk, the normal assumption is that they are being a jerk because of gender, race, etc and not that they are jerk. Sometimes that's the case...many times it's just a bad human. End of story.

When we add in the qualifier that it absolutely must be for the sole reason because of my gender, then yes we are playing the ovaries card. Also the whole "well I'm a girl, give me the shiny thing" is not even playing a chick card...that's playing a little princess card...whole different level of issues. Either way...throwing our gender around like that is not a good idea, it actually demeans us. There's a reason why women don't get taken seriously, because we train others to believe that they absolutely must behave along a clear cut path in accordance to whatever nonsense Jezebel is reporting on this week or they are evil vile people.

Our gender rarely has ANYTHING to do with it, bad humans and uncivilized humans have EVERYTHING to do with it. Not every insult towards a woman is the response of sexism. Not EVERY guy is sexist. Not every act of stupidity has sexism laced behind it. To keep thinking that it must be that way is selling things short. It's looking for a battle that simply might not be there. We keep looking for this vile sexist beast and think that all men are prone to it. Fun fact...most of them are not and we need to stop treating them like they constantly are.

[dunklezhan]

@OP: sucks that there's still enough people out there acting this way for anyone to feel they need to mention this. But if it's happening, it needs mentioning or it won't stop happening. Even those of us usually grown-up enough not to need to be told why we ought to all behave like decent human beings can use a reminder from time to time that there's people who apparently do need to be told such things, hard though it may be to get through to them. So continue to bring it up, don't feel bad about doing so, and trust your judgement about what is and is not harrassment/inappropriate behaviour.


Play on...