Showing respect your fellow player

[BigGoettge]

Ykt - that's just way out of bounds and have no place here!

If u can't debate on a reasonable level, why then paticipate at all???

[MadCookieQueen]

To sum up this white knight thread:

- Men are evil

- Women are kind princesses

I personally prefer to be the Evil Queen...after all...they have better lines, cooler outfits and Queen trumps Princess.


Yeah...all men are evil in the same kind of evil that ALL humans are...it's called...


big surprise


being human ^^

[Monkey-Boy]

I personally prefer to be the Evil Queen...after all...they have better lines, cooler outfits and Queen trumps Princess.


Yeah...all men are evil in the same kind of evil that ALL humans are...it's called...


big surprise


being human ^^

The burden of being a mammal.

[MeliCat]

Oh Kawaii. What a way to undermine things. Reverse-misogyny isn't going to fix misogyny

Exactly :/ Woah backwards... watch the smackdowns start to happen.

[Mercureal]

To sum up this white knight thread:

- Men are evil

- Women are kind princesses

I didn't read all of this thread (started on last page and worked backwards), but nevertheless I feel supremely confident in saying, yep, you got it. That's exactly what this thread is about.

[phillymiket]

To sum up this white knight thread:

- Men are evil

- Women are kind princesses

Typical defensive reaction.

I'm sorry you see the world in such a way that any criticism of a group you belong to is automatically viewed as a slight upon each and every member of your group.

Whether you see it or not, some male gamers could be better about the comments they direct toward female gamers.

If you choose to read that as "all males are scum, all females are saints" than that's on you.

[Sofianna]

Ykt,

If you think that spamming my forum thread post with that would give you the last word, THINK AGAIN.

If you think I'm calling it Bluff to the entire situation, THINK AGAIN.

Look me up in game, come and talk to me face to face IF you dare. Who are your alts ? I don't see them being stated on your posts ? Are you shy ?

[Sofianna]

I didn't read all of this thread (started on last page and worked backwards), but nevertheless I feel supremely confident in saying, yep, you got it. That's exactly what this thread is about.

You clearly do everything backwards ! Superlol.

[Sofianna]

I've said it many times in this thread alone, it isn't about male vs female OMG, can't some of you close minded posts even see that ?

Its EVERYTHING to do with bullying someone for NO REASON, totally unprovoked. If YOU got singled out in raid party and was called degratory term, would YOU stand up and speak up about being bullied ? Or just squelch and put another notch on being ignorant ?

[Faltout]

I've said it many times in this thread alone, it isn't about male vs female OMG, can't some of you close minded posts even see that ?

Its EVERYTHING to do with bullying someone for NO REASON, totally unprovoked. If YOU got singled out in raid party and was called degratory term, would YOU stand up and speak up about being bullied ? Or just squelch and put another notch on being ignorant ?

It depends on whether I thought my words would change something. Judging from the way you're saying they attacked you, they're not that mature to change attitude by people telling them. If they have some sort of punishment from the party, that might teach them. And squelching someone is sometimes some sort of punishment.
You describe ignorance as a bad thing, but the power to ignore when the time is right is very important. A frustrated person hurling insults to all directions is WAITING for someone to argue with. And "Never argue with an idiot. They will bring you down to their level and beat you with experience". Meanwhile, a frustrated person that sees no response to his behavior but a cold, still silence, will probably cool off or head elsewhere.

Since I posted (couldn't resist any longer), a woman can be annoying when:
- She says "I'm a woman and can perform less than you. So, please lower your expectations of me".
- She says "I'm a woman and please treat me like I was your bro, because anything else would be insulting"
- Basically whenever she tries to fit or not to fit the woman "profile" and is therefore not being herself.
Judging by the thread you started, you seem like the kind of woman that could do such a thing. If you did one of the above things, then consider it may have been a reason why someone noticed your gender (yes they knew your gender from your voice, but noticing it is something different).

P.S.: Women may do the things I listed when feeling insecure, which can happen in a world where online gaming is falsely considered to be a men's game.

[phillymiket]

I've said it many times in this thread alone, it isn't about male vs female OMG, can't some of you close minded posts even see that ?

Its EVERYTHING to do with bullying someone for NO REASON, totally unprovoked. If YOU got singled out in raid party and was called degratory term, would YOU stand up and speak up about being bullied ? Or just squelch and put another notch on being ignorant ?

I have a character that has a Chinese name and is human made to look Chinese, just because role play.
I have actually had people call me a "Gold Farmer" and even a "$%#@%$ Chinese Gold Farmer' on this toon.
As in, "Of course the #$%%% Gold Farmer rolled on it" by someone disappointed they didn't win a roll.
They seem to shut-up when I say something about it in voice chat in 'Murican because the bias no longer applies and I become simply a player rolling on loot and not a "type".
People are funny. (by funny I mean F'ed up.)

a woman can be annoying when:
- She says "I'm a woman and can perform less than you. So, please lower your expectations of me".
- She says "I'm a woman and please treat me like I was your bro, because anything else would be insulting"
- Basically whenever she tries to fit or not to fit the woman "profile" and is therefore not being herself..

Except that nobody says such things.

They say other things, and you assume that's what they are "really saying".
"She was all like, I'm a woman and bla, bla, bla" is what I think you meant to say.

Thing is, how do you know what she was "all like" or "really meant"?
How do you know if someone is "being herself" when you don't know that person?

Sometimes when people have preconceived notions about a group they get what those people say all twisted and then judge that group, not by what they actually said, but by a twisted interpretation of what they think they meant.

[Mercureal]

Oh, and because I realize it may have been somewhat unclear...

[sarcasm=

I didn't read all of this thread (started on last page and worked backwards), but nevertheless I feel supremely confident in saying, yep, you got it. That's exactly what this thread is about.

[/sarcasm]

[Infiltraitor]

From reading this thread, I have concluded that...

If you are scraping the bottom of the barrel, it is because you have your hand in a barrel.

Puggers are puggers for a reason. Many of the decent folk have been claimed and form parties based on guild affiliations and private channels. The end result is a non-random selection of a larger population in favor of lots of weirdos and creeps and jerks. Your sample will always be skewed because you are taking it from a pug.

Additionally, there is another thing you need to consider.

When I do some jerkwad jackassery, I get called out on it in tells. 12 raid members don't need to hear an argument over the time I rolled on a Litany and then sold it to someone who lost the roll. Simply because we didn't hear some big shouting match in party chat doesn't mean everyone didn't remember what I jerk I was and squelched me accordingly.

[Braegan]

Exactly :/ Woah backwards... watch the smackdowns start to happen.

Meh, no need for smackdowns.

Poster you are referring to is acting young and immature.

I do agree posts like that do take things back a step, instead of progressing forward. But, that is youth. They really think they have all the answers.

[Noobtastic]

I don't tell people what gender I am. Why do you?

Do you believe that anyone should have to hide who they are just because you are too much of a coward to show the world who you are? Do you ever use voice chat in game? Why should any of us have to hide who we are? I can't believe anyone would use such logic to defend their point of view and think that they would be taken seriously.

To sum up this white knight thread:

- Men are evil

- Women are kind princesses

You have completely missed the point of this thread. If you refuse to contribute to the discussion in some meaningful way, do us all a favor and simply remain silent. To imply that original poster brought this topic up for any other reason than to open a discussion on civility toward their fellow players is totally off base.

It has been stated many times now that the point is to never stand idle when harassment is encountered. Speak out! Support those around you that have been subjected to harassment. Show the perpetrators that their actions will not be tolerated. If someone in your group is being harassed or ridiculed, have the common decency to say something in their defence. Do so in such a way that is not derogatory or insulting in return. Simply show the offender the indecency of their actions.

To hide behind the premise that harassment and ridicule is just part of the human condition devalues all of humanity. I am certainly not saying that I am perfect, but I am saying that I can learn from my mistakes. I simply will not accept that when I have wronged someone that it is just what humans do. We can all strive to be something better than what we are. Those that refuse to even try are the ones that are lost.

[Monkey-Boy]

You have completely missed the point of this thread.

This thread had a point?

[Andoris]

I've said it many times in this thread alone, it isn't about male vs female OMG, can't some of you close minded posts even see that ?

Its EVERYTHING to do with bullying someone for NO REASON, totally unprovoked. If YOU got singled out in raid party and was called degratory term, would YOU stand up and speak up about being bullied ? Or just squelch and put another notch on being ignorant ?

Okay, I am tired .. this thread has gone in odd an unproductive directions and frankly is showing a lot of folks (on both sides) in a unfavorable light.

Either way, I feel that it is important to at least put the facts of the matter out there -- after that feel free to go about sniping at each other all you want.

First, the individual that used inappropriate language (Run B*atch!) was a member of my guild.. as such I take full responsibility for their actions as guild leader. I have fully investigated the matter and in my opinion, while there was a error in judgement and a delay in an apology (that never manifested due to the OP leaving party) once it was shown that someone was offended, this was not a case of misogynistic gamer behavior.

The individual in question was chain running VON 5/6s short man with a number of the same individuals over a number of runs. During the runs they were joking on how quick they could do the various tasks (in this specific case running the Coffer across the map). My guildie made the mistake of using the above language (Run B*atch!), directed at a someone who they thought was towards a barb player that he was chain running with , but instead due to them not noticing who picked up the Coffer got directed towards a new member of the raid group, who didn't have the experience of the jokes and camaraderie formed over the prior runs.

My guildie wasn't even aware that the OP was female.. and was honestly just trying to give someone they knew a "hard time" (aka. http://www.thesaurus.com/browse/give+a+hard+time). That mistake was further compounded upon by not quickly apologizing when the OP took offence at the comment.

This is a case of mistaken identity, poor judgement on the use of party chat, a delay in the offering of an apology when someone was offended, and a slight bit of over-sensitivity on the part of the OP.

Not that it is an excuse, but it is worth mentioning that the individual in question doesn't speak English as a first language (actually it might be his fourth or fifth) -- again, not making excuses, but I wanted to ensure that the situation can at least be taken in context.

The individual in question understands the problem and misunderstanding that occurred and will ensure that it does not happen in the future. As far as I am concerned this issue is closed.

If the OP still feels slighted, or believes there is error in my information or judgement on the matter I encourage her to contact me privately or in game and I will be happy to address any concerns.

For others, if you don't feel this is resolved to your satisfaction (even though it is unlikely that you have even half of the facts) -- feel free to brand me however you like and squelch away .. my toons are listed below for all to see. Again, I take full responsibility for the incident and my decision not to take action against the individual in question is also my responsibility.

Now, can we stop the trolling and attempts to turn this into something it is not...




Again, my sincere apologies to Sofianna for how the situation unfolded.

[Sofianna]

Matters would have been instantly resolved if people were sensible enough to not encourage FURTHER trash talking AFTER the "misunderstanding" took place.

Yes I have made it very clear to Ghallanda Rerolled co-leader I am available for communication over the incident. Sadly it was never quite resolved outside the forum. And yes I can send private messages after Ashram's post but I insist on clearing some points :

... there was a error in judgement and a delay in an apology (that never manifested due to the OP leaving party) ....

2. I had a raid item that was non tradeable, to ragequit and leave unprofessionally is definetly not my playstyle. Other raid members do not have to penalized for the 2 persons who trashed talked to me.

No, I did not leave the party part way through the Von5. I finished the raid calmly, quietly, said my ty4g and then left.

My guildie wasn't even aware that the OP was female ... That mistake was further compounded upon by not quickly apologizing when the OP took offence at the comment. This is a case of mistaken identity, poor judgement on the use of party chat, a delay in the offering of an apology when someone was offended, and a slight bit of over-sensitivity on the part of the OP.

And a case of goadingfurther trash talking by another party involved. More people encouraging insulting jokes to add fire to the fuelled situation was totally unnecessary. See why I felt a target of bullying ?

Again, my sincere apologies to Sofianna for how the situation unfolded.

Thank you for standing up to the situation, however delayed. Your OP guildie was never squelched because I waited to see if I was going to get an apology. None forthcoming. I only had GRR contact sent me tell about that your OP was 14 and was to be excused that he watches television a lot and thats how he feels its "cool" to call women "female dogs". Not even gonna reply or justify that explanation.

After this post, it concludes the thread. All other trollers are henceforth ignored as many have advised. Any other issues, contact me in game.

[Xyfiel]

I use to flirt with all the girls in my guild. Finally asked one to chat personally to get to know her better. Married 3.5 years with child on the way. Sometimes talk is just talk and we are really good guys trying to find a good girl who has been trained her whole life that men just want in their pants. It is hard to find a way in when they all shut themselves out. Of course harassment is too far. Also, being online only it is impossible to see body language.

I agree women do not belong in the kitchen. I have tasted your cooking. Correction, I have survived your cooking. Attempted murder would hold up in court for some of those meals. :P
Seriously, regardless of gender I no longer expect people to be able to cook above a very basic level. I have already discussed with the wife that I will cook and we will have family dinners as long as we can. I am recently disabled and am becoming the house husband and she has a good job. I had a friend/roommate ask me one time when we was ~25 while I was cooking breakfast "so how do you make scrambled eggs?" Cooking is more than put pizza in stove.

I still play with multiple women with no flirting or harassment. Melicat can verify.

[MadCookieQueen]

Yes I have made it very clear to Ghallanda Rerolled co-leader I am available for communication over the incident. Sadly it was never quite resolved outside the forum.

I'd like to state that within less than five minutes of being sent an in forum PM alerting me that this was one of our guildies, I immediately responded with apologies and a request for the screenshot of the conversation. When I was emailed the screenshot I responded within a few minutes, again with apologies and assurances that we would handle this matter.

However it was communicated that our internal guild policies, are that, internal. How we reprimand or investigate a matter is solely up to our discretion and not available for public debate.

If the expectation was that we would have the guildie seek you out in game and offer apologies, how people wish to further pursue a matter is up to them. We have done all that we can do, as leaders, to bring about corrective action.

Though I am of the mind to wonder if you were looking to see if we would flat out remove the guildie for this. After investigation and talking to, there wasn't a need for that. I'm sorry if this is not the resolution you seek. Again our internal policies, disciplinary actions and all that are not up for external debate nor are we under any obligation to notify you of how we handle things. Even you have stated this to me.

Thank you for standing up to the situation, however delayed. Your OP guildie was never squelched because I waited to see if I was going to get an apology. None forthcoming. I only had GRR contact sent me tell about that your OP was 14 and was to be excused that he watches television a lot and thats how he feels its "cool" to call women "female dogs". Not even gonna reply or justify that explanation.

Actually he didn't have to come here and say a word about this situation, as I have handled it. This backhanded slap against him for being "delayed" was uncalled for. If discussion with myself, as the co-leader, was not adequate nor timely enough, and you needed him to step up sooner; that was also not communicated. I am sorry that he trusted me to handle this and make the necessary apologies and take necessary action.


As for the continuing line of commentary, I would like to know, privately, which guildie informed you that the other one was 14 and etc. Because I can assure you, that this particular guildie is NOT 14, however I cannot speak to his TV watching habits.

No one here is making excuses for any kind of inappropriate behavior nor language used, it is what it is. A simple misunderstanding as previously outlined by my co-leader. The remark was never meant for you and I am sorry that you took it as such. The remark was never meant as an insult, it was just freely spoken using vernacular that the two parties had already set up between themselves. How we talk among our friends, including "trash talk", is usually different than how we talk to strangers. Again this does NOT excuse any kind of inappropriate behavior nor make light of the slight in which was felt. It simply is, what it is.