Vip - rip

[Keladon]

i'm not trying to denigrate your experience here, just using it as a springboard for thought.

more and more i feel like i am becoming an outlier myself as regards DDO. after playing the heck out of it for years perhaps my approach is different. for example, in the scenario you described above, i can't say that i would be all that upset with a failure. things like that make the game more realistic to me - that the deadly enemies you face would indeed try their utmost to slay the very creatures your party is tasked to protect.

except unlike real life, or pencil and paper, the consequences are practically negligible. some time, some plat to repair your stuff, and that's it.

even chalking it up to that unfortunate random element of a particularly nasty champ or a regular dude who got off a lucky shot, so what? really, so. what.

it is absolutely the truth that you can redo a quest and have a different outcome. that was the case before champions and it is after them. it's always been that way.

I don't care about the plat, I do care about the time. It's all about time. If I'm going to spend my time playing a game, I'd like to have fun.. it's hard for me to view an experience like that as "fun".
Time is a valuable commodity and limited too. If I have to spend that time failing a quest because of something that is out of my control (this includes lag too), I would have rather done something else.
If you got 10% of the xp for every 10% of progress, this wouldn't be as much of an issue, but with DDO it's pretty much all or nothing.

So sure, when I still lived with my parents, had no job, no worries.. replaying quests because of something like that wouldn't have bothered me as much, but when the time you can spend on games become limited..

[Enoach]

I don't care about the plat, I do care about the time. It's all about time. If I'm going to spend my time playing a game, I'd like to have fun.. it's hard for me to view an experience like that as "fun".
Time is a valuable commodity and limited too. If I have to spend that time failing a quest because of something that is out of my control (this includes lag too), I would have rather done something else.
If you got 10% of the xp for every 10% of progress, this wouldn't be as much of an issue, but with DDO it's pretty much all or nothing.

So sure, when I still lived with my parents, had no job, no worries.. replaying quests because of something like that wouldn't have bothered me as much, but when the time you can spend on games become limited..

I like to play card games and board games but when I don't win I don't consider it a waste of time. If I did then watch out Vegas I'm coming. I don't live with my parents and I have a job and I see my entertainment time as my entertainment success or failure to win, but it is in the attitude that I have in that failure is simply a learning experience towards success. Now there are many quests in DDO that have optional XP that is earned and there are a number of places where this optional XP (which is based on the percentage of the base quest XP) is literally in the way so it makes sense to complete. However, outside of XP quests also have loot that can be obtained even with a failure (breakables and chests), this loot can be used to make your chances better be it directly or in converting it to coin to get the tools to succeed. It is also gaining personal experience of what went wrong and how can I approach this problem better.

So no it is not All or nothing in DDO there are ways to advance even on a failure.

[Bargol]

I like to play card games and board games but when I don't win I don't consider it a waste of time. If I did then watch out Vegas I'm coming. I don't live with my parents and I have a job and I see my entertainment time as my entertainment success or failure to win, but it is in the attitude that I have in that failure is simply a learning experience towards success. Now there are many quests in DDO that have optional XP that is earned and there are a number of places where this optional XP (which is based on the percentage of the base quest XP) is literally in the way so it makes sense to complete. However, outside of XP quests also have loot that can be obtained even with a failure (breakables and chests), this loot can be used to make your chances better be it directly or in converting it to coin to get the tools to succeed. It is also gaining personal experience of what went wrong and how can I approach this problem better.

So no it is not All or nothing in DDO there are ways to advance even on a failure.

Younger generations were raised on the whole "everyone gets a trophy for just showing up". They didn't have normal grades, they didn't have people being held back grades, and instead everyone passes.

This mentality has taught them that they must auto-win everything they try, if they don't auto-win its not worth trying, this is the case whether it is in life/work, or in leisure for fun.

Far to many people on the forums seem to think that the game is all about some imaginary end point where they win or are done. However, the game in reality is all about the journy and enjoying it with other people. So suceed or fail its still fun.

[Keladon]

Younger generations were raised on the whole "everyone gets a trophy for just showing up". They didn't have normal grades, they didn't have people being held back grades, and instead everyone passes.

This mentality has taught them that they must auto-win everything they try, if they don't auto-win its not worth trying, this is the case whether it is in life/work, or in leisure for fun.

Far to many people on the forums seem to think that the game is all about some imaginary end point where they win or are done. However, the game in reality is all about the journy and enjoying it with other people. So suceed or fail its still fun.

Good thing I'm not part of that generation then.
Good thing I never got anything handed to me and had to work hard for everything I had and have. (just saying, I know that's not directed at me.. But I do know far too many people of 'that generation')

And yes, most card and board games are different.
If I lose, I lose.. if I win, I win.
I play to win, but I don't mind losing.. because winning wouldn't get me anything I wouldn't have had when I lost..

I can agree that failing can be fun tough, I used to have some long and hard raid runs back in the day, we failed but we had fun, we also learned from that experience. You know what to watch and where, you learn what gear to bring, what skills to use. If I'm learning, I don't mind failing, it makes me better.
Something random beyond my control that makes me fail a quest, not really something you can call a learning experience.

*snip*
So no it is not All or nothing in DDO there are ways to advance even on a failure.

Getting 10% vs 110%, you're right, it's not All or nothing, it's all or almost nothing.
My above answer applies to your post aswell, with champions all that personal experience or loot won't help me one bit. It might in static situations, but not in something 100% random.

[LongshotBro]

Good thing I'm not part of that generation then.
Good thing I never got anything handed to me and had to work hard for everything I had and have. (just saying, I know that's not directed at me.. But I do know far too many people of 'that generation')

And yes, most card and board games are different.
If I lose, I lose.. if I win, I win.
I play to win, but I don't mind losing.. because winning wouldn't get me anything I wouldn't have had when I lost..

I can agree that failing can be fun tough, I used to have some long and hard raid runs back in the day, we failed but we had fun, we also learned from that experience. You know what to watch and where, you learn what gear to bring, what skills to use. If I'm learning, I don't mind failing, it makes me better.
Something random beyond my control that makes me fail a quest, not really something you can call a learning experience.

this could be part of the issue - let go of some of that feeling.

look at it like this: at face value, a game is 100% luck/random chance. every thing you do to affect that moves the odds in your favor. but there is always going to be a portion you cannot control. accept it and things will go a lot smoother. using a card game like Magic is a perfect example. the most well-constructed deck is still going to have a chance of bad draw, bad luck, or the opponent simply getting better luck than you. i myself balk at players who scoop as soon as things don't go their way, so maybe that is why my experience in DDO is different as well.

[Keladon]

this could be part of the issue - let go of some of that feeling.

look at it like this: at face value, a game is 100% luck/random chance. every thing you do to affect that moves the odds in your favor. but there is always going to be a portion you cannot control. accept it and things will go a lot smoother. using a card game like Magic is a perfect example. the most well-constructed deck is still going to have a chance of bad draw, bad luck, or the opponent simply getting better luck than you. i myself balk at players who scoop as soon as things don't go their way, so maybe that is why my experience in DDO is different as well.

I would look at it like that, if that was actually the reality

There's a lot I don't control in games and I accept that, but throwing something at me that is auto-fail is not challenging, difficult or fun.

I don't like card games like Magic, too much luck involved, chess on the other hand..
Is chess 100% luck/random chance? My moves will determine what happens next and that can be in my favor or not.. Yet it's still about skill.

[Enoach]

I would look at it like that, if that was actually the reality

There's a lot I don't control in games and I accept that, but throwing something at me that is auto-fail is not challenging, difficult or fun.

I don't like card games like Magic, too much luck involved, chess on the other hand..
Is chess 100% luck/random chance? My moves will determine what happens next and that can be in my favor or not.. Yet it's still about skill.

See I think this is where the disconnect is. Champions are not Auto-Fail. Can they lead to failure? Sure, but to say they are auto fail would mean that if one showed up in the quest you might as well recall or Turbine might as well switch the quest objectives to "Failed". Yes champions ramped up the failure chances on Hard/Elite difficulties. But they are not auto-fail, unless that is the attitude a person takes. When Shroud first came out there were groups that would quit in part two if certain Lieutenants were in the mix and some groups that would quit if the groups failed to coordinate killing all 4 at the same time. In their mind it was an auto-fail, but it wasn't. Even then groups could recover - The trees slowly regenerated SP for example a little patience and a little timing and finally groups getting creative on how to take them down is all it took. Champions are simply the new problem that the players need to figure out and get past. It might take a little time but I have faith we can overcome it. Of course it might also be that Turbine decides to tweak them again maybe adjust spawn rates and abilities better based on both difficulty (Hard/Elite) as well as Heroic vs Epic.

As for Chess that is a game of Bad moves and Worse moves. The goal is always to make less Worse moves than the opponent.

[LongshotBro]

I would look at it like that, if that was actually the reality

There's a lot I don't control in games and I accept that, but throwing something at me that is auto-fail is not challenging, difficult or fun.

I don't like card games like Magic, too much luck involved, chess on the other hand..
Is chess 100% luck/random chance? My moves will determine what happens next and that can be in my favor or not.. Yet it's still about skill.

fair point, and made me stop and think.

i suppose, it would be like chess if the players all played from a much, much smaller pool of pieces and with all skills, gear, stats, etc. static amongst them.

chess:magic::gauntlet:ddo but even then, there's a lot more variables in gauntlet than in chess

in all of those games, there is nothing akin to automatic failure that a player has at least some degree of effect on.

[Gremmlynn]

this could be part of the issue - let go of some of that feeling.

look at it like this: at face value, a game is 100% luck/random chance. every thing you do to affect that moves the odds in your favor. but there is always going to be a portion you cannot control. accept it and things will go a lot smoother. using a card game like Magic is a perfect example. the most well-constructed deck is still going to have a chance of bad draw, bad luck, or the opponent simply getting better luck than you. i myself balk at players who scoop as soon as things don't go their way, so maybe that is why my experience in DDO is different as well.

I'm guessing you feel the same way about lag wipes then too.

[LongshotBro]

I'm guessing you feel the same way about lag wipes then too.

insofar as it doesn't cause me strife, yes, i do. a moment of "oh, darn," sure. that's about it.

i suppose if there is a difference, it's that fighting champs or facing any other challenge, i have personal control over my own actions and reactions.

but overall, i won't say DDO has never irked me. on the other hand i've been playing on and off since 2006 so obviously all the changes and/or bugs and issues haven't bothered me that much.

[LongshotBro]

Younger generations were raised on the whole "everyone gets a trophy for just showing up". They didn't have normal grades, they didn't have people being held back grades, and instead everyone passes.

This mentality has taught them that they must auto-win everything they try, if they don't auto-win its not worth trying, this is the case whether it is in life/work, or in leisure for fun.

Far to many people on the forums seem to think that the game is all about some imaginary end point where they win or are done. However, the game in reality is all about the journy and enjoying it with other people. So suceed or fail its still fun.

i'm not sure where the whole "it's only fun if i win without question" arose from. at any rate, yes i agree with the point made here.

[Gremmlynn]

Younger generations were raised on the whole "everyone gets a trophy for just showing up". They didn't have normal grades, they didn't have people being held back grades, and instead everyone passes.

This mentality has taught them that they must auto-win everything they try, if they don't auto-win its not worth trying, this is the case whether it is in life/work, or in leisure for fun.

Far to many people on the forums seem to think that the game is all about some imaginary end point where they win or are done. However, the game in reality is all about the journy and enjoying it with other people. So suceed or fail its still fun.

It's actually the acceptance to the auto-lose situations that we are discussing here. I doubt most of us don't play DDO for life lessons about how sometimes you lose despite how well you do, nor that we find that has anything to do with the leisure or fun we are attempting to get from this product.

[Hydian]

It's actually the acceptance to the auto-lose situations that we are discussing here. I doubt most of us don't play DDO for life lessons about how sometimes you lose despite how well you do, nor that we find that has anything to do with the leisure or fun we are attempting to get from this product.

Yes, some people want to play games that don't present an actual challenge. My kids use cheats, god mode, etc when they play games though for the life of me I don't understand what they get out of standing around an empty Halo battlefield for two hours shooting at each other when they are both invulnerable. I don't tell them not to do it, but I don't let them pretend that they've won the game by completing it with an ammo cheat either. I don't play any game with them that they use cheats in which upset them with Borderlands for a while, but they understand why now.

The problem here isn't just that you don't want any challenge, but that you want to be rewarded as if you did overcome the same challenges as those who can and do. If that wasn't the issue, you wouldn't be crying about having to run on hard instead of elite. Personally, I don't really care if you actually earn your bolo badge or not. Your lack of skill doesn't affect me, but it will affect the people you group with. That said, the entire feedback structure of RPG style games is a risk/reward proposition. If you are not taking as much risk, then by design you do not get as much reward. You are asking to short circuit that. What's the next request? What's the end goal? Just let you level whenever you mash a button 20 times? Where do you draw the line?

[Gremmlynn]

Yes, some people want to play games that don't present an actual challenge. My kids use cheats, god mode, etc when they play games though for the life of me I don't understand what they get out of standing around an empty Halo battlefield for two hours shooting at each other when they are both invulnerable. I don't tell them not to do it, but I don't let them pretend that they've won the game by completing it with an ammo cheat either. I don't play any game with them that they use cheats in which upset them with Borderlands for a while, but they understand why now.

The problem here isn't just that you don't want any challenge, but that you want to be rewarded as if you did overcome the same challenges as those who can and do. If that wasn't the issue, you wouldn't be crying about having to run on hard instead of elite. Personally, I don't really care if you actually earn your bolo badge or not. Your lack of skill doesn't affect me, but it will affect the people you group with. That said, the entire feedback structure of RPG style games is a risk/reward proposition. If you are not taking as much risk, then by design you do not get as much reward. You are asking to short circuit that. What's the next request? What's the end goal? Just let you level whenever you mash a button 20 times? Where do you draw the line?

No. I want a well presented challenge. Not a hodgepodge mob upgrade tossed on with no thought as to how that effects the specific quest it is tossed into or mob it is tossed on.

[bartharok]

No. I want a well presented challenge. Not a hodgepodge mob upgrade tossed on with no thought as to how that effects the specific quest it is tossed into or mob it is tossed on.

That basically means that you wish to predict exactly your chances of succeeding in a quest. Which usually means autocomplete if you enter.

[Gremmlynn]

I like to play card games and board games but when I don't win I don't consider it a waste of time. If I did then watch out Vegas I'm coming. I don't live with my parents and I have a job and I see my entertainment time as my entertainment success or failure to win, but it is in the attitude that I have in that failure is simply a learning experience towards success. Now there are many quests in DDO that have optional XP that is earned and there are a number of places where this optional XP (which is based on the percentage of the base quest XP) is literally in the way so it makes sense to complete. However, outside of XP quests also have loot that can be obtained even with a failure (breakables and chests), this loot can be used to make your chances better be it directly or in converting it to coin to get the tools to succeed. It is also gaining personal experience of what went wrong and how can I approach this problem better.

So no it is not All or nothing in DDO there are ways to advance even on a failure.

That tells me you have a gamblers mind set, where buying a losing hand is acceptable. That isn't universal, many actually want how the hand is played to be the deciding factor, not the hand that is dealt and Turbine is selling their product to those customers too.

[Enoach]

That tells me you have a gamblers mind set, where buying a losing hand is acceptable. That isn't universal, many actually want how the hand is played to be the deciding factor, not the hand that is dealt and Turbine is selling their product to those customers too.

In cards there really is no losing hand, any hand can win with the right skill to play it.

Of course you totally missed the point I was making to the person I was responding to, but such is forums with the cherry picking to try and "win" an internet argument. The point I was making is simply it is not a waste of time to fail. It is the attitude you have that is the most important.

Also to point out your Tomb of Tormented. It has been discussed in several posts when this came up alternate ways to work with the rats. Most people simply go with the brute force method and miss the logical part of the RATs are not the only ones that are hungry.

[Gremmlynn]

Also to point out your Tomb of Tormented. It has been discussed in several posts when this came up alternate ways to work with the rats. Most people simply go with the brute force method and miss the logical part of the RATs are not the only ones that are hungry.

If you mean feed the mobs tainted meat, they ignore it now. if you mean go make a sandwich while the mobs are slowly ground down, kind of defeats the purpose of being logged in at all IMO.

[Enoach]

If you mean feed the mobs tainted meat, they ignore it now. if you mean go make a sandwich while the mobs are slowly ground down, kind of defeats the purpose of being logged in at all IMO.

Hmmm, that is interesting as this method still worked in November of 2014 (last time I had someone at level run this). Might have to step in and give this a go to confirm.

Using the meat to lead the worgs/carrion eaters away or to switches or into traps has been the method I've used in this quest since it came out. I know others use AoE damage but that has never seemed right to me.

[Enoach]

If you mean feed the mobs tainted meat, they ignore it now. if you mean go make a sandwich while the mobs are slowly ground down, kind of defeats the purpose of being logged in at all IMO.

Hmmm, that is interesting as this method still worked in November of 2014 (last time I had someone at level run this). Might have to step in and give this a go to confirm.

Using the meat to lead the worgs/carrion eaters away or to switches or into traps has been the method I've used in this quest since it came out. I know others use AoE damage but that has never seemed right to me.

So as it turns out my level 26 cleric had not yet done this quest on elite so I had a chance to get two birds with one stone - check for myself about the meat and also earn some favor. I also chose this character as they have no trap skills and wanted to use only what was in the maze to succeed as well as use of timing.

I took no items or prepared spells that currently work through the grate.

Now the first maze is the easiest and does not have any obstacles so I won't spend time discussing how that went

2nd Maze I initially used to check how meat effects the other creatures in the maze.

My First attempt was with a Carrion Eater that was in an alcove that would be shut in once the first floor panel is activated. This Carrion Eater was facing the back wall and hitching. It ignored any meat next to it. So my first thought was hmmm. Maybe I was wrong or something is wrong.

Second attempt was against a Tainted Worg - This too ignored the meat. So now I'm thinking wow this totally. However, the worg had a hunting pattern. So it could be treated much like a moving spinning blade. You can time your rat around. You may notice if you look at the maze there are many places you can move your rat into that is around the corner/out of site but it does require timing.

Third attempt was another Carrion Eater towards the end of the maze. It turns out he was all over the meat and I lead him all the way back to the floor switch and lead my rat around him completely. So now I'm leaning towards the first Carrion Eater is bugged.

3rd Maze

The first Carrion Eater between the rat nest and the first floor panel is looking similar to the first carrion eater in the 2nd Maze. Just standing there. Normally this is the one that I would lead to the panel to switch the doors and then I would lead it back and forth through the trap until it is dead so it won't kill my poor little rat. But it would not move. Bringing a rat to it they would fight and it took about 5 rats to win. So yes in this state I can see a champion Carrion Eater could be a problem. Once dead the rest was timing to get my rat past the spinning floor trap (which I did) and then again through the moving spinning blade area.

Now towards the end of the 3rd maze is another Carrion Eater and a spinning floor trap as well as a floor switch that needs to be triggered. This carrion eater did eat the meat and I was able to move him all the way to the floor switch and have him do all the activations needed so that my little rat can go chaw on a mummy.

So based on this run I will say that the meat still works, however there are two Carrion Eaters that are bugged and as such I submitted a bug report detailing this. So yes in the current state if the Carrion Eater in the 3rd Maze that was bugged was a champion this could be a pain to get past throwing rat after rat against it. But I believe that is because this Carrion Eater is suffering from a bug. If working as intended none of the Carrion Eaters or Worgs as Champions would be an issue outside of bad timing of moving the rat.