Vip - rip

[PermaBanned]

So I shouldn't have fun when beginning to play DDO? Interesting.

Yes, interesting indeed...

For an experienced player seeking a challenge at all levels of play, is there a higher difficulty setting than Elite? Nope, so the experienced player seeking a challenge only has Elite - again, the highest difficulty setting - to choose from.

Now, for you to have fun - as a returning player on a first life character: are you seeking a challenge? Is there any reason why your fun is tied to/restricted to the highest difficulty setting available? Why can you not have any fun on a lower, less difficult setting like Hard or maybe even Normal?

[Lanhelin]

Now, for you to have fun - as a returning player on a first life character: are you seeking a challenge? Is there any reason why your fun is tied to/restricted to the highest difficulty setting available? Why can you not have any fun on a lower, less difficult setting like Hard or maybe even Normal?

Because Korthos quests on normal/hard are boring. Elite was appropriate. But with Champs it's kind of overpowered. I think I had a good idea two posts above but I'll repeat it: Why not make champ-appearance a past life feature? So past lifers can have fun during levelling by having an additional variability feature available - and first lifers can have it too (on elite, without champs). Nobody would seriously argue against this, no?

[Ayseifn]

Because Korthos quests on normal/hard are boring. Elite was appropriate. But with Champs it's kind of overpowered. I think I had a good idea two posts above but I'll repeat it: Why not make champ-appearance a past life feature? So past lifers can have fun during levelling by having an additional variability feature available - and first lifers can have it too (on elite, without champs). Nobody would seriously argue against this, no?

There's been a few perma deathers that really liked champions, I think only one didn't like them so there's that subset that'd miss out. Also how would it work with mixed groups of TRs and first lifers?

Personally I'd just prefer them to be tweaked to be just as dangerous to TRs as they are newbies, they're part way there already but could use some more work.

[LongshotBro]

i'm completely willing to risk having my account banned by saying this is the absolute dumbest thread i have ever read in 8 years.

and i have read a lot of threads.

[Vulkoorex]

Just get rid of Casual, keep Hard and Elite as before U24 and make a Mythic category that has the pre-nerf Monster Champions. And maybe an extra +10% xp for the extra difficulty.

[Fallout_Zero]

No, Elite always has been tougher. But now it's just luck or no luck. No matter what gear or knowledge. Champ spawns y/n? If n - luck, complete quest. If y - doom. This 50/50 chance is completely different to x/fail open a door or turn a wheel or find a trap. If you don't open the door, you missed the bonus content, if you couldn't turn the wheel you miss the loot spot, if you didn't find the trap you die or jump over and survive it. But if you face a champ, it's a 100% chance to fail to skillwise overcome it. You have to deal with it (but mostly it will deal with you). And I want to say it again: I do not talk about champs in higher levels, I talk about quests in the starter area. Would you suffer that much when lvl 1 toons can beat Korthos quests on Elite with ease?

Or you could do a quests on n/h and you know, level up?
Or try to get another team member?

What a concept.

[Azarddoze]

i'm completely willing to risk having my account banned by saying this is the absolute dumbest thread i have ever read in 8 years.

and i have read a lot of threads.

Some risks are worth taking when retardness reaches such level.

[Bonedad]

i'm completely willing to risk having my account banned by saying this is the absolute dumbest thread i have ever read in 8 years.

and i have read a lot of threads.

I will second that.

[PermaBanned]

Because Korthos quests on normal/hard are boring. Elite was appropriate. But with Champs it's kind of overpowered. I think I had a good idea two posts above but I'll repeat it: Why not make champ-appearance a past life feature? So past lifers can have fun during levelling by having an additional variability feature available - and first lifers can have it too (on elite, without champs). Nobody would seriously argue against this, no?

What makes you think everyone with a past life wants to have Champs in the quests, or that nobody without one wants them? Also, what happens if a 1st lifer joins an IP Elite quest started by TRs - Do the Champs poof away? What if a TR joins a 1st lifers IP elite quest - Do Champs poof in? Nah, can't see any potential issues with tying Champs to past lives...

[lyrecono]

So you're a completionist and don't care about numbers? What a surprise.

i used to, till i got bored running the same stuff on a higher difficulty.
it takes bigger numbers, not bigger skill, so meh
i'm no hamster running in their wheel.

that bar people want to reach? that bar is fake, it's an illusion, put there by incompetent people who lacked the vision to direct a project like ddo, instead of content we got fake difficulty bars and tr-ing.

the only grippe i have with champions as they are now are the lazyness of putting a random layer of buffs on trash and the divide it creates between those who can and can't.
Many vet's were able to carry a group of newish /casual players through content without making it cost them the 10% exp, many i speak these days avoid grouping (esp in heroics) to keep their 10%.
I think thats a bad thing for a social game like ddo, it already lost the first m of mmo some time ago. many players i meet outside of the harbor&marketplace (so disregarding young players without money to go vip or spend cash on points) are above 35 years old, not your typical esports participants, many don't feel the need to compensate for something.
Then again, they have their own voices, when they complain about being a soulstone again (due to champion cheesyness) i tell m to go to the forum. Some i don't see come back.

Back to numbers:
Having 1 toon with all the lives and gear doesn't mean i enjoy running it, i spend more time in heroics these days, it's content is a lot more varied to me, i only wished they made a lv 5-10-15 ish varient of haunted halls(like chronoscope?), it's content seems so much more fit to heroic levels

[Keladon]

I think I've pretty much found the problem with the community when it come to champions.

I think its awesome that champions can one shot you.. Or me.. Or the uber player with 75 past lives....

And here I was thinking going from 100% hp to dead in 1 hit wasn't fun or challenging...
Apparently it's awesome, getting 1shot is awesome.

That explains why I see so many people jump on the OP when he complains about getting 1shot, you shouldn't complain about something awesome!

the only grippe i have with champions as they are now are the lazyness of putting a random layer of buffs on trash and the divide it creates between those who can and can't.
Many vet's were able to carry a group of newish /casual players through content without making it cost them the 10% exp, many i speak these days avoid grouping (esp in heroics) to keep their 10%.
I think thats a bad thing for a social game like ddo, it already lost the first m of mmo some time ago. many players i meet outside of the harbor&marketplace (so disregarding young players without money to go vip or spend cash on points) are above 35 years old, not your typical esports participants, many don't feel the need to compensate for something.
Then again, they have their own voices, when they complain about being a soulstone again (due to champion cheesyness) i tell m to go to the forum. Some i don't see come back.

Pretty much this.
Champions might look like a well thought out design choice, but it's really just lazy. They applied it to EVERYTHING, I sometimes see champion decorations, crowned things in the background that aren't even npc's.. why? Because they took the lazy way out. Not to mention the fact that champions can range from ignorable to overpowered.

I also don't think widening the gap between newer players, casual players and vets is a good idea. But Turbine has already stopped making tiered loot, which makes me believe they realize this too.

[FranOhmsford]

Champions might look like a well thought out design choice, but it's really just lazy. They applied it to EVERYTHING, I sometimes see champion decorations, crowned things in the background that aren't even npc's.. why? Because they took the lazy way out. Not to mention the fact that champions can range from ignorable to overpowered.

I also don't think widening the gap between newer players, casual players and vets is a good idea. But Turbine has already stopped making tiered loot, which makes me believe they realize this too.

Spot on and Well said!


I'm seeing certain suggestions crop up more and more often now - Suggestions that would help a lot for BOTH Casuals & Newer Players AND Uber Vets!

1) Change the Favour totals to Normal and Hard only with Hard giving the full Elite Favour - In one fell swoop you remove the MAJOR contributor to so called "Lesser" Players needing to run Elite!
1a) Remove Favour from Casual completions too!
1b) Up the Chance of Named Loot and Special items like Tomes in Elite to Compensate - Don't go overboard obviously!

2) Add a difficulty beyond Elite scaled for a minimum of 2 Completionists {Anyone can enter but scaling will not change!}.
2a) This difficulty gives exactly the same XP and Loot as Elite - It is there for the Challenge Only!

3) Give us back a True End-Game i.e. Mythic with Level 35 or even 40 quests only enterable by Characters of Lvl 30+!
3b) Once Lvl 30 is in play no more Level Cap increases for at least 3 Years! And then only to 32!
3c) In 2nd Ed. AD&D 32 was the point at which players began their assent to Godhood - Give Triple Completionists the option to either Retire their Character upon reaching a certain MASSIVE XP total after Lvl 32, Stay at Cap or TR with an Extra Feat Slot usable for Past Life Feats only! {Players should be able to do this no more than 3 times}

4) Stop with the Lazy route when making system changes!
4a) Remove Champions from Quests where they cause significant issues {Tomb of the Tormented for example!}
4b) Make certain mobs unable to become Champions - Oozes, Animals, Lesser/Non-Intelligent Undead like Skeletons and Zombies {Arcane Skeletons, Skelly Knights, The Intelligent Zombies in Black Loch can have Champions fine but NOT base Skeletons/Zombies OR the bags of HPs known as Dread Zombies!}

[Nestroy]

...

I am still of the opinion that the major contributor to the elite craze is the bravery streak. Do away with that and THE one single source of constant elite running is done away with.

Champs are OK atm feelign right at 10% spawn rate where they belong. The only thing missing is a reward for the bigger risk taken, e.g. some token XP bonus for slaying a champ. Otherwise the system now works, at last.

I am not sure I would want champs to be completely done away with now. A new difficulty level with massice champ spawns would be a nice addition though- no extra rewards, for bragging rights only.

[Vellrad]

The role of luck. Luck shouldn't decide if you succeed or fail a quest.

And talk about a hostile answer. The question was "what is the point of VIP if it's not running elite", you managed to not answer that in 3 full lines of text, congratulations.

Yes, this has devalued VIP, but that's up to Turbine to decide whether or not that's an issue.
They're still driven by money, if they notice the amount of subs going down, I'm sure they'll act accordingly.

If luck shouldn't decide, should dice rolls be removed?

[Keladon]

If luck shouldn't decide, should dice rolls be removed?

If you meant to ask "if luck shouldn't decide if you succeed or fail a quest, should dice rolls be removed?"

Then no, because bad rolls don't decide if I succeed or fail a quest.
I roll 1s all the time, getting held, tripped, stunned, spells being saved against, misses, those don't cause me to fail quests - they might be annoying at times, especially when I roll a few 1s in a row, but that's it.

[Thar]

I'm a returner. You'll easily recognize me as my toon actually is named "Returner" (on Wayfinder, 1st life to get in again, Rogue/Wiz planned) and performing as bad as you guys at Turbine probably bet on?! When I left, quests on Khorthos were easy, almost all even on Elite, except the one where to keep the npc alive. All fine, but now I fail at the "defeat the chrystal" quest all the time (lol? w.t.f.?), because on every attempt two champions spawn and kill me and my hire with one hit instantly. I do not know what the deeper sense of this gameplay design decision was? If I was Turbine, I'd probably say: well, we know we made this game - but we don't want you to be vip (because DDO is dead) - and if you dare anyway, we simply kill you. Is this your very intention? If not, then this clearly is a bug (I wonder why it not had been mentioned already) that has to be removed now.

Edit:
I mean, what is the incentive nowadays to become a VIP? Getting all the content but getting ripped in the first elite quest? No, definitely not. Please, take a little more time to think about your decisions - or explain the hyper-10-times-reincarnated-it's-still-a-challenge difficulty increase! Or should I move DDO directly into the desktop-basket, should I uninstall, is this your intention? I want an answer, please.

This is another oversight for champions. They don't scale well, do too much damage and quests were not adjusted to be able to accomidate this (ie more hps on nps/breakables).

and contrary to opinions, new or returning players do Elites.

[Chai]

So I shouldn't have fun when beginning to play DDO? Interesting.

Edit: But this leads to another idea: Turbine, make champs appear only in instances opened by Past-Lifers. They seem to want to have fun - let them have fun! But let First Lifers also have fun and experience the dungeons, the mechanics, the locations of traps in peace - they won't complain I guess, if they don't face any champs. Make champ-appearance a past life feature. New players would be curious about it, trying to get into the first past life as fast as possible. With this change I could live - and probably log in to a past life toon after I got used to gameplay again.

2 out of the 4 difficulties do not have champions. The idea that someone beginning to play DDO should be able to handle elite with no chance of failure isn't realistic, because it leaves no headroom for challenging those same people when they become more experienced and better geared.

I say put the checkbox in so people can decide if they want to deal with champions, with a 20% XP bonus for those who choose yes, and lets see how many people choose no. I doubt there will be many, because people wont even now choose difficulty settings which do not have champions - an option we currently have available.

[icekinslayer]

Just get rid of Casual, keep Hard and Elite as before U24 and make a Mythic category that has the pre-nerf Monster Champions. And maybe an extra +10% xp for the extra difficulty.

duh, then mythic will be the default difficulty that everyone has to do and the whining will continue.

[gaffneyks]

2 out of the 4 difficulties do not have champions. The idea that someone beginning to play DDO should be able to handle elite with no chance of failure isn't realistic, because it leaves no headroom for challenging those same people when they become more experienced and better geared.

I say put the checkbox in so people can decide if they want to deal with champions, with a 20% XP bonus for those who choose yes, and lets see how many people choose no. I doubt there will be many, because people wont even now choose difficulty settings which do not have champions - an option we currently have available.

The assumption that everyone who doesn't like champions does so "because they are to hard" isn't totally valid.

I am a veteran who has tr'd multiple times. I cancelled my VIP a couple of weeks ago.
I did so because I hate the whole champion concept. I am an older guy who played D and D pnp for years and a giant rat with more hit points than a boss, just did not seem right and i found it stupid to have to pound on something for 5 minutes longer and think "it's a challenge".
I am used to playing elite and hard, i have no difficulty playing these levels. I guess i could play normal to avoid champions, but chose not to. I choose to quit instead.

I seriously doubt DDO is getting the number of new players that people seem to think. It is a very old game.

If I was given the check box option that you suggested, I would not have left.
If that option is given now, I would re-up my VIP.

For now I just check the forums to see if any changes have been made to champions that would bring me back, if not, then I go back to playing Panzer Corps for now.

Sorry to all who are having lag issues now. I have none. Don't understand why you are having lag issues, have you checked your machine?

Oh hold on, I am not playing DDO, maybe that's why I am not having lag issues. just kidding. I talked with one of my former guildies yesterday, he was pretty upset. Hope they get it fixed.

He obviously was giving me **** when he told me they got had to back out the champions. Jerk. lol

[Kaytis]

I say put the checkbox in so people can decide if they want to deal with champions, with a 20% XP bonus for those who choose yes, and lets see how many people choose no. I doubt there will be many, because people wont even now choose difficulty settings which do not have champions - an option we currently have available.

I will catch flak for this, but I have switched to normal for the vast majority of my ER runs. It's not about challenge for me, it's about time. Champions don't introduce the possibility of defeat for my strongest toons -they only slow things down. With 10s of millions of XP needed to get a decent stable of past lives, I need to get XP as fast as possible. Even before champions this was often done by running normal. Now with champions this is almost always the difficulty of choice.

The only quest I routinely do on EH is Two-Toed Tobias. But there is an incentive to do so beyond XP in that one particular quest so it doesn't count. If XP were increased by 20% using a "with champions" option, I would still have to evaluate the additional time it would take. The percent increase in total XP would have to equal or exceed the percent increase in time spent for it to be worth it.

Don't get me wrong -I would rather be running for loot drops (e.g. TTT), but the end-game as I see it is ER. Until it's not, normal it is.