Vip - rip

[Keladon]

Youre right, ill probably never understand why people wish to change the world, when adapting is less painful. Not a question of passion, i try to change things that are in my reach, other stuff i just tolerate.

Its like dealing with pain. You can either let it incapacitate you, or try to work through it. A matter of personality.

True, I like to look for the cause and treat that.

You work through it.

Like you said, a matter of personality.

[Seikojin]

edit: nvm, just read through some of your posts. You're never going to get it.

Some people are passionate about things, other people.. aren't.
I would love to not care about this game, where it is heading, if the bugs will ever get fixed, but the moment I'm no longer passionate about it, I'll probably stop playing.

To cap things off, it isn't a thing of getting it or not. We get it. However we also see the bigger picture of things like, does this bug stop me from playing? Nope? Ignored. Does it make playing harder? Nope? Ignored. A little? Ignore. Some? Ignore for 20 years. A lot? Rant on the forums.

It is for each players perspective to determine what matters and what does not. Most issues don't matter to me personally because I have been in the development side for several MMO's and know the what's and they why's on bugs not being fixed.

I just file my bugs and talk about the ones that I feel have a broader impact than my personal experience.

Other people complain about champs being hard, or stuck spots, or rubberbanding. IE; one person's whatever is another's hot button topic.

For example, if you look at the champion topics where I have posts, at first I am all 'champ everything!!!1!!!!!' Then I realize some of the stuff I see and hear makes sense, and I change my tune. I think champs are fine on hard (for rate and buffs), elite needs a boost in rate, not buffs, and the chests the orange nameds drop should contain special rewards. And that all champs should have a chance to drop an astral shard. I also point out some potential bugs in the champs that can come across as OP: stacked buffs from being champed multiple times before the mob is active.

I am also very clear on how I feel about difficulty. I think new people poking into elite are asking for trouble. If they step up from normal, to hard, to elite... Then they are trying to push their limits. Ragequitting when they fail their first elite run of something is a sure sign of a player that didn't want ddo in the first place.

[Qhualor]

He wasn't pretending like it happened all the time but you are pretending that it never happens. Most of the one shots I've seen are melee crits from a combination of complete fortification bypass and damage boosts. I didn't see it at Korthos though - only in EE level 26+ quests.

If you read some of his posts he goes on about Champions that one shot as if its something common. I'm not pretending it doesn't happen just like i don't pretend Slay Living or caster disintegrates or Ice Flenser Polar Rays or Hound PKs or rolling a 1 by non Champions doesn't happen.

[Keladon]

To cap things off, it isn't a thing of getting it or not. We get it. However we also see the bigger picture of things like, does this bug stop me from playing? Nope? Ignored. Does it make playing harder? Nope? Ignored. A little? Ignore. Some? Ignore for 20 years. A lot? Rant on the forums.

It is for each players perspective to determine what matters and what does not. Most issues don't matter to me personally because I have been in the development side for several MMO's and know the what's and they why's on bugs not being fixed.

I just file my bugs and talk about the ones that I feel have a broader impact than my personal experience.

Other people complain about champs being hard, or stuck spots, or rubberbanding. IE; one person's whatever is another's hot button topic.

For example, if you look at the champion topics where I have posts, at first I am all 'champ everything!!!1!!!!!' Then I realize some of the stuff I see and hear makes sense, and I change my tune. I think champs are fine on hard (for rate and buffs), elite needs a boost in rate, not buffs, and the chests the orange nameds drop should contain special rewards. And that all champs should have a chance to drop an astral shard. I also point out some potential bugs in the champs that can come across as OP: stacked buffs from being champed multiple times before the mob is active.

I am also very clear on how I feel about difficulty. I think new people poking into elite are asking for trouble. If they step up from normal, to hard, to elite... Then they are trying to push their limits. Ragequitting when they fail their first elite run of something is a sure sign of a player that didn't want ddo in the first place.

Ignoring bugs that don't stop me from playing would cause me to ignore all bugs. Enhancements being broken, quests that don't progress, escorts being pretty much impossible right now, ..
So I'm not sure where you're going with that argument. Because something doesn't stop me from playing doesn't mean it shouldn't get fixed.

I often see the argument that they should fix bugs instead of creating content or focus on specific bugs, but who says they can't do both? Who says they only have enough manpower to focus on one thing at a time?
I can't read the devs mind, I don't know what they can and can't fix, neither can anyone.

As to your last sentence: exaggeration.
Noone said anything about a player ragequitting when they failed their first elite run.
If I have a bad experience with a game or notice it's too buggy for my tastes and quit because of that, does that mean I didn't want to play it in the first place?
I'm pretty sure that last argument is flawed in more ways than one.

If you read some of his posts he goes on about Champions that one shot as if its something common. I'm not pretending it doesn't happen just like i don't pretend Slay Living or caster disintegrates or Ice Flenser Polar Rays or Hound PKs or rolling a 1 by non Champions doesn't happen.

If you read some of my posts you would have noticed that I have said multiple times that it's not. So if you're going to talk about reading my posts, do me a favor, actually read my posts.
You're pretending it's not an issue if it doesn't happen a lot.

[FrancisP.Fancypants]

I'm impressed by how fast this thread managed to devolve from what was an angry rant to begin with.

Stop whining about champions. Most of them have little more than interesting debuff icons; the HP buff and the damage increase buff are the ones giving you fits. You can figure out how to deal.

The crystal needs more hit points, period. It shouldn't be very hard to defend; it's meant to introduce new players to the escort/protect mechanic, not make them hate it. That's Tesara's job.

There's no sense in assuming new players have little faculty beyond basic human sight and ten working fingers; look at how many people got past the ridiculous glut of **** to learn and the misinformation that came along with it to play for more than a few weeks. If they're invested enough to keep playing, they'll learn to play up to whatever difficulty they're presented with.

[Sharktopus]

It seems like no one of you actually read (ok, maybe read) but could not understand the words.

It's a 1st life char (no reincarnation). I started at the beach. Did the beach quest to Khorthos, no level up 'til now, then entered the "protect the chrystal" quest on Elite (bought the Cleric Hire before) - I enter the instance and after three enemies attacked a champ appears that runs right to the chrystal, destroys it with one hit, then a second champ appears and both destroy me and my hire. Believe it or not. Turbine has to believe - and this simply is frustrating.

Then try it on normal or hard. That's why those options are there. You shouldn't expect to go into a quest 3 levels over your head on a first life toon with no twink and just solo without problems..

[bartharok]

True, I like to look for the cause and treat that.

You work through it.

Like you said, a matter of personality.

I believe the cause cant be found on the forums, and most of the time, the cause found is not the one that needs treating.

[Keladon]

I believe the cause cant be found on the forums, and most of the time, the cause found is not the one that needs treating.

Makes sense, "the cause found is not the one that needs treating."

Did you just type something nonsensical to have the last word?

edit: if you really just want to have the last word, let me know, I'm an adult, you can have it.

[bartharok]

Makes sense, "the cause found is not the one that needs treating."

Did you just type something nonsensical to have the last word?

No. I mean that people believe they have found the cause, but the cause is elsewhere. Like blaming the game for X when its you making a mistake. (Dont mean in this case, just generally)

The point is that when you look for a cause, you must be VERY certain you are not looking for something to blame. And to be honest, i dont believe that people are able to do it when it comes to something they are passionate about.

[Keladon]

No. I mean that people believe they have found the cause, but the cause is elsewhere. Like blaming the game for X when its you making a mistake. (Dont mean in this case, just generally)

The point is that when you look for a cause, you must be VERY certain you are not looking for something to blame. And to be honest, i dont believe that people are able to do it when it comes to something they are passionate about.

Agreed, people do sometimes blame external factors while the problem lies with them.

But just because you're passionate about something doesn't mean you can't be objective.

I'm passionate about the work I do, but I wouldn't be able to do it if I wasn't objective.

[bartharok]

Agreed, people do sometimes blame external factors while the problem lies with them.

But just because you're passionate about something doesn't mean you can't be objective.

I'm passionate about the work I do, but I wouldn't be able to do it if I wasn't objective.

Oh, work is something else. Its something you have to be objective about, and usually people have a good chance to be objective. Passions about hobbies and such are harder to be objective about.

And im something of a cynic when it comes to motivations of people anyways.

[kmoustakas]

I just recently like the last few days created a brand new level 1 character on thelanis, (getting out of cannith) anyways yes I was running Korthos on elite with my level 1 and yes the cannith crystal is not doable. In my case I had 3 champions appear and yes they one shotted my barbarian hire then ate me alive. Now I am not a new player but I am not a sucky player either. I mean really I am starting from scratch on there so I was using the rusty longsword and the rusty mace from heytons crypt. So like how am I supposed to beat down a champion (3) of them with that? But to my rescue came a player on that server named Mons who gave me some weapons so I could go back to Korthos and take care of business. My point though is how do you expect new players to beat these champions with a rusty longsword and a rusty mace? Also if they should not be running elite then what is the point in being and paying for VIP?

It's actually very easy! By running normal first, then hard, then the other quest normal, then hard, then by leveling up and using enhancements all the while finding better gear and equiping it. Did I mention running normal first? Heavens forbid, even getting more people to help you beat it.

I think I just described every rpg and mmo ever.

[nibel]

I had piercing and slash and both resulted in 0 base damage. I am not going to carry an arsenal to Korthos because of champs - I will get them done with the weapon effects.

I was not implying an arsenal. I said three weapons. All who were given to you for free by the game quests. Your average DDO player have more than that on a regular basis.

[Qhualor]

This perfectly proves how a totally random feature to add difficulty is not a good idea.

When people are complaining about getting 1shot and running into monster champions with the most painful buff combinations while others can clear the same quest without running into them.. something's wrong.
I've said it before and I'll say it again. Success or failure shouldn't depend on being lucky.



Their intention was to make the game harder, because we have a very vocal "the game is too easy" crowd.
Now I also know a lot of veterans who aren't part of this crowd because they understand why the game has become easier after playing it for years. (knowledge, gear, skill, past lives, ..)

So even though that was their intention.. and I have my doubts about the reason, the fact still remains that they could've chosen at least a dozen different solutions to this problem.
But they chose to introduce randomness.. why? It's supposed to keep things exciting... I guess. (Real exciting when you see the vets that asked for it, say they make no difference at all)
I doubt they expected that it would ruin escort quests, defend quests, other quests in general because people get 1shotted.. and make no difference at all half the time because it's random.
(We'll consider beating on huge bags of hp as "no difference at all"right now, even though to me that's just annoying and anything except fun.)

So because it didn't begin with champions means it's alright to devalue it further?
Flawed logic.

When a champion 1shots an escort NPC, noone is going to call that "getting killed by the dice". (Well.. you will, maybe)
I'm not even going to call that unlucky, that's just plain broken.

And sometimes I get tripped, or held, or my spells don't land or a trap goes off, etc. But I have never failed a quest because of that, yes, never.
And I'm not "overpowered" for the quests I'm running either.

When a champion decides to ignore all my fortification and hits multiple time harder than the mobs around him or even 1shots someone, you fail the quest without any involvement of skill or gear.

It doesn't happen often, but it's still happening and it doesn't add any challenge at all, only frustration. (I find a few posts about 1shot experiences everyday)



Never experienced that myself and if it went down it was because I wasn't paying attention and it took a few hits, not just 1 hit.
1 champion getting through or refusing to aggro you or a partymember (happens more often than I'd like) and it can be over now, sounds pretty broken or luck based to me.

Talking about 1shot, not getting killed, escort quests have always been rather frustrating because the NPCs are programmed to be as squishy as possible, but I've never seen anyone go down in 1 hit.
The problem with 1shot is that you can't assign a healer to the npc ..or anything, you can't heal someone that dies in 1 hit.

And if we're talking percentages, would it be fair to say an ungeared first life character should have 0% chance to succeed on elite? Exaggerating doesn't mean you're right or that it's a fact.
But then again, you do say that flawed logic would be that.. and not that everyone is expecting that - so I see no issue there.

Being able to run elite doesn't mean you should automatically get 100% chance to succeed. But making it feel futile to run on elite does take away a big benefit of being VIP and that's what this thread is about.

That's a horrible way to justify that and I'm sure I don't have to tell you why.



I have already mentioned multiple times that it doesn't happen all the time.
Just because I 'sometimes' get stuck in the scenery or fall through the floor, does that suddenly make it ok? It's only a problem when it happens often?

If you read some of my posts you would have noticed that I have said multiple times that it's not. So if you're going to talk about reading my posts, do me a favor, actually read my posts.
You're pretending it's not an issue if it doesn't happen a lot.

None of these quotes are edited. I only took the ones where you specifically talk about one shot in this thread, never mind the other thread. There's probably another half dozen from you responding to other posts about one shot. Again, you are coming across as if its common, which it is not.

[Flavilandile]

Chiming in late to the party...

Once upon a time, when there wasn't Korthos, Bravery "Elite Mandatory" ******** Streak, Dungeon Scaling and way more stuff...

The quest was quite doable on Elite...( that is if your rogue managed to survive Euphonia's Challenges )
Then they modified it... and it became Solo only. ( without any scaling it meant it was still considering a 4 people party )
And by Solo only I mean : No Drone, No Pet... They weren't in game at that time.

The game is easy now compared to that time.

No. you just refused to start a fresh toon like everybody else would have to do, without any items. But you claimed to complete an otherwise very, very hard quest. Did I hurt your feelings? If so, then sorry, I didn't want to. Maybe you're not the man for it, it's pretty ok

Actually he cannot start a fresh character without these items, they are autogranted as soon as he leaves the Grotto.
They are Founder Items every character he creates will have them. ( well the Kitty Ticket is not Founder, that MoTu Whatever Edition stuff... that also gets autogranted upon leaving the Grotto. )
I don't know what happens if you drop them... ( I don't know if you can drop them actually )... But the fact is that they will always appear in the inventory of a new character he creates.

[Atremus]

VIP never meant auto win. What is the point of the VIP rage?

[Keladon]

None of these quotes are edited. I only took the ones where you specifically talk about one shot in this thread, never mind the other thread. There's probably another half dozen from you responding to other posts about one shot. Again, you are coming across as if its common, which it is not.

Are you kidding me? Again, I have mentioned multiple times that it's not common but still happens.
If you keep this up I'm seriously going to start doubting your intelligence.

I mean.. it's even right there in my posts you quoted.

[bartharok]

Are you kidding me? Again, I have mentioned multiple times that it's not common but still happens.
If you keep this up I'm seriously going to start doubting your intelligence.

I mean.. it's even right there in my posts you quoted.

I think his issue is that while you DO say in some of the quotes that its not common, some of the others IMPLY (i dont mean that you intend them to) that its common enough to make the game too hard for newcomers.

[Chi_Ryu]

Wasn't trying to say anything about your playing ability, only at your assessment that something you fail at 66% of the time isn't hard.

Assuming you were actually using thought and tactics on all three tries, failing two out of three suggests that there is an uncomfortably high luck factor involved. Too high for a game that doesn't involve a deck of cards.

Your opinion of what percentage rate of failure makes something "hard" very possibly varies from mine, not to mention that the percentage rate of failure may not affect the actual effort expended in each attempt (=not very much). As I've mentioned, my success rate in a game of Nethack is about 5% - that to me is hard. YMMV.

I can't say I've ever tried to complete the quest in that particular way before, so there was a learning curve involved, and improvements made to my strategy each run (and on my first run I was inattentive and careless). I dare say that now I know what I am doing I may be able to complete it 66% of the time (instead of 33%), and probably with a character even more weak at that level, since the hire is really doing all the work... though if I were to choose a class that is stronger at that level (e.g. a real melée class with a 2-handed-weapon and maxed strength has an easier job than a weaponless Int-based rogue at level 1) I would expect the success rate to rise dramatically.

But the starter area is nonsensical right now.
Maybe I'm wrong, but I just picture a person joining DDO and thinking this:
snip

I've been playing only since just after MOTU was released, so started with a FTP account and the Korthos experience, and enjoyed it a lot (that's why I stayed). I don't imagine many people just trying out the game jump in with a VIP subscription straight away.

I started by running the first quest chain solo on - dare I say it - Normal, and then re-running it on Hard once I'd levelled up and finally graduating to Elite (after I'd tried some of the Harbor quests on Normal).

Had I experienced Champions back then, I would have quite quickly realised there was something special about them (although an in-game tool tip would be useful, as happens the first time you see a red-named boss), and I would have treaded more carefully around them - just as I do at mid-level with Ice Flensers, after being one-shotted with Polar Ray at the end of "Secure the area". A crown is quite an iconic symbol (ever played chess?), so I don't think there would be quite the degree of confusion about it that you imagine.

Heck, even the Skeletal mage in Sacrifices destroyed me the first time I encountered it (which was the first time I played on Elite, and not the first time I played the quest), and it was part of the learning experience for me, and made me play more cautiously (in the same way that being killed by traps on Elite made me stop running through them and think a bit better about how not to die).

The crystal needs more hit points, period. It shouldn't be very hard to defend; it's meant to introduce new players to the escort/protect mechanic, not make them hate it. That's Tesara's job.

Agreed (and Tesara has always been parked in a corner out of harm's way with an Invis clicky applied for me, I dread what the quest was like before you could do that).

However, on Elite, the crystal has had the potential to be destroyed in one shot on a critical hit for as long as I have been playing (even though Keladon has never personally seen this happen, I assure you I have on multiple occasions, and no it wasn't hit more than one time), and Champions have not changed that particular aspect - would more HP fix this, or is it a special case hard coded? Either way, I would not complain if it were removed - although it does make the quest more interesting for me, albeit sometimes tedious and definitely differentiates the quest on that difficulty from lower ones.

I don't know what happens if you drop them... ( I don't know if you can drop them actually )... But the fact is that they will always appear in the inventory of a new character he creates.

As with all the other stuff autogenerated on a new character, it is likely to be destroyed. I can certainly do so with the "Power Evidence", LR Heart and Shadowfell pre-order stuff that appears in my inventory.

[Qhualor]

Are you kidding me? Again, I have mentioned multiple times that it's not common but still happens.
If you keep this up I'm seriously going to start doubting your intelligence.

I mean.. it's even right there in my posts you quoted.

No I'm not kidding.

Doubt my intelligence all you want. I've been doubting the extremities you have been posting for days already.