Vip - rip

[bartharok]

I am of the opinion that failure that you can do nothing about is not acceptable.
I don't know why that would be wrong, it sounds logical.
If gear, past lives, experience, learning, preparation, skill, .. don't mean anything during some encounters but it's just *poof*, you're dead, I feel like that's not acceptable.

I have never seen a *poof* youre dead. I DO have seen a lot of: Argh, why didnt i do that another way.

Now you dont have any single safe way to do a quest, if nothing else helps, you have to keep your distance, or just rush at 'em without caring if the others maul you a bit.

[Chai]

I am of the opinion that failure that you can do nothing about is not acceptable.
I don't know why that would be wrong, it sounds logical.

Playing D&D is nigh impossible given that criteria, because being "killed by the dice" happens just as often as "trivializing the encounter due to the dice".

Champions are merely another roll of the dice - something D&D players should embrace. Chance and luck are a large part of a D&D based game. DDO began to lose some of that the more predictable it got, but with campions it regains some of that randomness back.

mean anything during some encounters but it's just *poof*, you're dead, I feel like that's not acceptable.

So your answer for someone who liked to run elite before champions because it was a nice challenge is to run normal now? (it wasn't no fail and I didn't just use brute force)
Normal isn't fun, elite was fun. Saying I should run normal doesn't fix anything, it's not a solution.

Nope, my answer is they have options.
...A. Run elite and embrace the fact that theres "less than fully predictable" degree of challenge involved.
...B. Run hard, which is still easily complete-able, even with champions
...C. Run normal for auto completion.
...D. Run casual for the story and plot familiarity without having to worry about character death.

What I'm seeing is complaints about champions being too hard followed by vets saying they hardly notice them.
What is this? A lose/didn't win situation?

Nope, its a win for anyone who is willing to use the difficulty system for what it is meant for, which is why the game has 4 difficulty settings. People can use them to their fullest in order to achieve the play experience they desire. Whether its mindless auto-completion or having to watch out for whats around every corner and behind every door, theres a difficulty setting which provides it.

[Knobull]

Nope, its a win for anyone who is willing to use the difficulty system for what it is meant for, which is why the game has 4 difficulty settings. People can use them to their fullest in order to achieve the play experience they desire. Whether its mindless auto-completion or having to watch out for whats around every corner and behind every door, theres a difficulty setting which provides it.

So the choices are: run normal or hard on solo or join a group running elite and be chided for your gimpness? That just doesn't work. BB/streaks need to go. This was supposed to be a multiplayer game.

[Enoach]

So the choices are: run normal or hard on solo or join a group running elite and be chided for your gimpness? That just doesn't work. BB/streaks need to go. This was supposed to be a multiplayer game.

I think this is really not true. I don't think there really has been any evidence that LFMs for Normal/Hard in Heroic content are actually ignored causing people to run solo. To me the view of the LFM system is that it is not being used because people look at the LFMs and think why would anyone join me for Normal/Hard if there is an Elite option. This means that people are letting others tell them how to have fun.

What I see Chai as saying is that a person needs to ask themselves why they care what others think about the quest and difficulty they have chosen? They also need to simply put up the LFM for what they want to do on the difficulty they want to do it on and work from there.

To give up before an LFM is used by saying no one will join me is like going fishing and never casting the line into the water. Again the whole point of the LFM system is to advertise and find others who just might be like you or want to run the quests similar to how you want to run.

Why should someone fresh off the boat really care what an 8 year player thinks of their build - that person has had 8 years to mess around with it and learn.

DDO is a multiplayer game. It just seems to me that there is a section of the population that does not want to take ownership of their own fun. That is what needs to change.

[Keladon]

Nope, my answer is they have options.
...A. Run elite and embrace the fact that theres "less than fully predictable" degree of challenge involved.
...B. Run hard, which is still easily complete-able, even with champions
...C. Run normal for auto completion.
...D. Run casual for the story and plot familiarity without having to worry about character death.

Yeah, thought so, nothing for me on that list. Thanks for the insight.
Good thing we have all those options!
'Bit' of an understatement on A though.

[Qhualor]

So the choices are: run normal or hard on solo or join a group running elite and be chided for your gimpness? That just doesn't work. BB/streaks need to go. This was supposed to be a multiplayer game.

people still chide?

if you are dying continuously in EE/HE to the point that people in your group have to actually say something to you than that should be a hint that you are not cut out for EE/HE. the highest difficulty should be balanced around group play that can normally handle that difficulty setting, not for anyone who just joins a group and expect to be able to handle it just because they are in a group.

[Vint]

So your answer for someone who liked to run elite before champions because it was a nice challenge is to run normal now? (it wasn't no fail and I didn't just use brute force)
Normal isn't fun, elite was fun. Saying I should run normal doesn't fix anything, it's not a solution.

Funny thing is when nerfs were made to certain classes/races (all the way back when we had w/p crit rage barbs and batman/exploiter builds) players would come and complain that they could no longer solo because Turbine “nerfed” their fun.

Guess what the community told them? Group up, run a lower setting, or quit the game.

Apparently it is okay to tell the elitist the above, but if you say it to a casual person it is all wrong?

The double talk over the years is hilarious. I don’t want anyone to quit over the champions, but I hope people complaining to get rid of champions remember this when the next “nerf the elitist build” thread begins.

[Gremmlynn]

They never break a quest, but they may cause you to fail unexpectedly every once in awhile. For me thats the entire point with them. Making people wake up and pay attention to whats going on.

I'm guessing you either haven't played Tome of the Tormented lately or we have very different ideas of what a broken quest are. To me, that quest is either broken or Turbine has no idea of what sort of product most of us want to buy. Taking and average of over 300 normal rats to kill one champion Carrion Eater isn't the sort of entertainment I'm interested in spending my money on.

Maybe it's because I always do pay attention, some say to much attention, that I notice every little thing that could, should IMO if they seriously want to make money off this game, have been done better with them. That or just not have bothered at all. Just seeing the champion statues, champion non active participant NPCs, champion allied NPCs, etc. shows me it wasn't done right. Right would have involved using or adding flags to the code of every mob/NPC in the game as to whether they can or can't be a champion. Developing code to limit how far from the listed level champions can cause a quest to be. Adding code to prevent any champion abilities from effecting escort/protect NPC items, be they buffs, debuffs or whatever. Then sending it to Lammania for a first pass to find out what was missed.

[Gremmlynn]

I like to play card games and board games but when I don't win I don't consider it a waste of time. If I did then watch out Vegas I'm coming. I don't live with my parents and I have a job and I see my entertainment time as my entertainment success or failure to win, but it is in the attitude that I have in that failure is simply a learning experience towards success. Now there are many quests in DDO that have optional XP that is earned and there are a number of places where this optional XP (which is based on the percentage of the base quest XP) is literally in the way so it makes sense to complete. However, outside of XP quests also have loot that can be obtained even with a failure (breakables and chests), this loot can be used to make your chances better be it directly or in converting it to coin to get the tools to succeed. It is also gaining personal experience of what went wrong and how can I approach this problem better.

So no it is not All or nothing in DDO there are ways to advance even on a failure.

That tells me you have a gamblers mind set, where buying a losing hand is acceptable. That isn't universal, many actually want how the hand is played to be the deciding factor, not the hand that is dealt and Turbine is selling their product to those customers too.

[Gremmlynn]

Younger generations were raised on the whole "everyone gets a trophy for just showing up". They didn't have normal grades, they didn't have people being held back grades, and instead everyone passes.

This mentality has taught them that they must auto-win everything they try, if they don't auto-win its not worth trying, this is the case whether it is in life/work, or in leisure for fun.

Far to many people on the forums seem to think that the game is all about some imaginary end point where they win or are done. However, the game in reality is all about the journy and enjoying it with other people. So suceed or fail its still fun.

It's actually the acceptance to the auto-lose situations that we are discussing here. I doubt most of us don't play DDO for life lessons about how sometimes you lose despite how well you do, nor that we find that has anything to do with the leisure or fun we are attempting to get from this product.

[Gremmlynn]

this could be part of the issue - let go of some of that feeling.

look at it like this: at face value, a game is 100% luck/random chance. every thing you do to affect that moves the odds in your favor. but there is always going to be a portion you cannot control. accept it and things will go a lot smoother. using a card game like Magic is a perfect example. the most well-constructed deck is still going to have a chance of bad draw, bad luck, or the opponent simply getting better luck than you. i myself balk at players who scoop as soon as things don't go their way, so maybe that is why my experience in DDO is different as well.

I'm guessing you feel the same way about lag wipes then too.

[PermaBanned]

I'm guessing you either haven't played Tome of the Tormented lately or we have very different ideas of what a broken quest are. To me, that quest is either broken or Turbine has no idea of what sort of product most of us want to buy. Taking and average of over 300 normal rats to kill one champion Carrion Eater isn't the sort of entertainment I'm interested in spending my money on.

Well give the rats some assistance! There are both spells and items you can use to stun or distract the mobs through the floor to help your rats defeat or evade them. If you're determined to do it via "Rattrition," that's on you - Form a prepared group, solo prepared, or accept that the simplest & easiest way (attrition) is also the slowest.

Maybe it's because I always do pay attention, some say to much attention, that I notice every little thing that could, should IMO if they seriously want to make money off this game, have been done better with them. That or just not have bothered at all. Just seeing the champion statues, champion non active participant NPCs, champion allied NPCs, etc. shows me it wasn't done right. Right would have involved using or adding flags to the code of every mob/NPC in the game as to whether they can or can't be a champion. Developing code to limit how far from the listed level champions can cause a quest to be. Adding code to prevent any champion abilities from effecting escort/protect NPC items, be they buffs, debuffs or whatever. Then sending it to Lammania for a first pass to find out what was missed.

It's always easier to say those things when you're not the one who has to:
A) Spend the money to make the money.
B) Answer to anyone about things like prospective/projected ROI on the things you want done, or answer to anyone when ROI doesn't meet expectations.

Also, I thought they did go through Lama? I know there was definitely Pre-release discussion of them.

[LongshotBro]

I'm guessing you feel the same way about lag wipes then too.

insofar as it doesn't cause me strife, yes, i do. a moment of "oh, darn," sure. that's about it.

i suppose if there is a difference, it's that fighting champs or facing any other challenge, i have personal control over my own actions and reactions.

but overall, i won't say DDO has never irked me. on the other hand i've been playing on and off since 2006 so obviously all the changes and/or bugs and issues haven't bothered me that much.

[Enoach]

That tells me you have a gamblers mind set, where buying a losing hand is acceptable. That isn't universal, many actually want how the hand is played to be the deciding factor, not the hand that is dealt and Turbine is selling their product to those customers too.

In cards there really is no losing hand, any hand can win with the right skill to play it.

Of course you totally missed the point I was making to the person I was responding to, but such is forums with the cherry picking to try and "win" an internet argument. The point I was making is simply it is not a waste of time to fail. It is the attitude you have that is the most important.

Also to point out your Tomb of Tormented. It has been discussed in several posts when this came up alternate ways to work with the rats. Most people simply go with the brute force method and miss the logical part of the RATs are not the only ones that are hungry.

[PermaBanned]

So the choices are: run normal or hard on solo or join a group running elite and be chided for your gimpness? That just doesn't work. BB/streaks need to go. This was supposed to be a multiplayer game.

It is a multiplayer game - that's a part of why soloing (especially @ level on the hardest difficulty setting!) really should be more difficult than doing it in a group. You blame BB/streaks - I blame Dungeon Scaling. If you happen to group up with a rude individual or two - change groups. If every group you join seems to be full of rude individuals... Well, that should encourage some reflection on common denominators.

I am of the opinion that failure that you can do nothing about is not acceptable.
I don't know why that would be wrong, it sounds logical.
If gear, past lives, experience, learning, preparation, skill, .. don't mean anything during some encounters but it's just *poof*, you're dead, I feel like that's not acceptable.

^emphasis added^
If you're "going poof" then you're either lacking some/all of or not fully applying some/all of those things.

What I'm seeing is complaints about champions being too hard followed by vets saying they hardly notice them.
What is this? A lose/didn't win situation?

Only since they toned them down. On first release some (many?) people were happy with them - now nobody is... I guess that makes it a successful compromise?

[PermaBanned]

Two things to remember:

That tells me you have a gamblers mind set, where buying a losing hand is acceptable. That isn't universal, many actually want how the hand is played to be the deciding factor...

Sometimes you can get out played, and...

...not the hand that is dealt and Turbine is selling their product to those customers too.

... The house always wins

[Hydian]

It's actually the acceptance to the auto-lose situations that we are discussing here. I doubt most of us don't play DDO for life lessons about how sometimes you lose despite how well you do, nor that we find that has anything to do with the leisure or fun we are attempting to get from this product.

Yes, some people want to play games that don't present an actual challenge. My kids use cheats, god mode, etc when they play games though for the life of me I don't understand what they get out of standing around an empty Halo battlefield for two hours shooting at each other when they are both invulnerable. I don't tell them not to do it, but I don't let them pretend that they've won the game by completing it with an ammo cheat either. I don't play any game with them that they use cheats in which upset them with Borderlands for a while, but they understand why now.

The problem here isn't just that you don't want any challenge, but that you want to be rewarded as if you did overcome the same challenges as those who can and do. If that wasn't the issue, you wouldn't be crying about having to run on hard instead of elite. Personally, I don't really care if you actually earn your bolo badge or not. Your lack of skill doesn't affect me, but it will affect the people you group with. That said, the entire feedback structure of RPG style games is a risk/reward proposition. If you are not taking as much risk, then by design you do not get as much reward. You are asking to short circuit that. What's the next request? What's the end goal? Just let you level whenever you mash a button 20 times? Where do you draw the line?

[bartharok]

I'm guessing you either haven't played Tome of the Tormented lately or we have very different ideas of what a broken quest are. To me, that quest is either broken or Turbine has no idea of what sort of product most of us want to buy. Taking and average of over 300 normal rats to kill one champion Carrion Eater isn't the sort of entertainment I'm interested in spending my money on.

Maybe it's because I always do pay attention, some say to much attention, that I notice every little thing that could, should IMO if they seriously want to make money off this game, have been done better with them. That or just not have bothered at all. Just seeing the champion statues, champion non active participant NPCs, champion allied NPCs, etc. shows me it wasn't done right. Right would have involved using or adding flags to the code of every mob/NPC in the game as to whether they can or can't be a champion. Developing code to limit how far from the listed level champions can cause a quest to be. Adding code to prevent any champion abilities from effecting escort/protect NPC items, be they buffs, debuffs or whatever. Then sending it to Lammania for a first pass to find out what was missed.

Ihave played tomb of the tormented after the introduction of champs. Didnt have much more trouble than i had before. But thats because i usually use something to kill the carrion eaters and worgs before they get to the rats. The way ive always done it. Most people can get it done that way if they want, just get some UMD and a cacophonic verge.

Sure, the escort/protect missions have gotten somewhat harder, but i didnt have much trouble with escorting... Whatever the dwarf engineer in Threnal was named either, i just made sure i was enough ahead of him at all times. The way ive always done it.

And getting distracted by shadows is NOT the same thing as paying attention, btw.

[Keladon]

Funny thing is when nerfs were made to certain classes/races (all the way back when we had w/p crit rage barbs and batman/exploiter builds) players would come and complain that they could no longer solo because Turbine “nerfed” their fun.

Guess what the community told them? Group up, run a lower setting, or quit the game.

Apparently it is okay to tell the elitist the above, but if you say it to a casual person it is all wrong?

The double talk over the years is hilarious. I don’t want anyone to quit over the champions, but I hope people complaining to get rid of champions remember this when the next “nerf the elitist build” thread begins.

Maybe I should just play a few more years, finish getting completionist and just join the "the game is too easy" crowd. I'd feel like a complete idiot saying that, but there's enough players who don't even realize how stupid it is to say that.. so why not.

edit: I have seen 1 person come up with a way to deal with overpowered champions so far, 1. Says a lot about the forum community, doesn't it?

Only since they toned them down. On first release some (many?) people were happy with them - now nobody is... I guess that makes it a successful compromise?

Yup.

[bartharok]

Maybe I should just play a few more years, finish getting completionist and just join the "the game is too easy" crowd. I'd feel like a complete idiot saying that, but there's enough players who don't even realize how stupid it is to say that.. so why not.

edit: I have seen 1 person come up with a way to deal with overpowered champions so far, 1. Says a lot about the forum community, doesn't it?



Yup.

You dont need to have completionist to consider the game easy. You just need to play with your mind open.