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[bartharok]

I actually don't dislike them...most of the time. It's when they effectively break quests that I have an issue.

I will say that I dislike that they were either not very well thought through or they were but implemented despite the issues they can cause though. If the latter, likely because solving them wasn't in the budget. If doing them right means many times the work, then IMO either commit to that or don't do it at all.

They never break a quest, but they may cause you to fail unexpectedly every once in awhile. For me thats the entire point with them. Making people wake up and pay attention to whats going on.

[Keladon]

They never break a quest, but they may cause you to fail unexpectedly every once in awhile. For me thats the entire point with them. Making people wake up and pay attention to whats going on.

I would agree with you.. if that (bolded part) would actually make a difference.

We could just all say, "as long as you can redo a quest and succeed eventually, nothing's wrong", but that's far from the thruth.

The problem with randomness is that you have outliers, and randomness can create situations where paying attention doesn't help you at all, gear doesn't help you, skill doesn't help you..

I personally don't like having to redo quests because of something that is out of my control, something I can't influence or change at all. (Yes, I'm not too happy about lag either)

Things like my run of Ritual Sacrifice, a quest that can be really long if you're not just in a group full of zerging vets.. and then you're a minute away from the end and the npc you have to protect dies because 2 champions windlasher casters focus him and kill him in less than 1 sec, you can't prevent that from happening, you can't heal someone that dies faster than it takes to cast a heal.
Waking up and paying attention to what's going on wouldn't have changed anything, we had someone assigned to heal him whenever he took the slightest bit of damage, exactly to prevent him from dying at all costs.
Those casters were the nr1 targets, but that still didn't stop them from attacking and killing the NPC. (We ran the quest on hard, not elite)

Yes, this is just 1 example, but I'm sure you've already heard many more.. I know I have

[LongshotBro]

I would agree with you.. if that (bolded part) would actually make a difference.

We could just all say, "as long as you can redo a quest and succeed eventually, nothing's wrong", but that's far from the thruth.

The problem with randomness is that you have outliers, and randomness can create situations where paying attention doesn't help you at all, gear doesn't help you, skill doesn't help you..

I personally don't like having to redo quests because of something that is out of my control, something I can't influence or change at all. (Yes, I'm not too happy about lag either)

Things like my run of Ritual Sacrifice, a quest that can be really long if you're not just in a group full of zerging vets.. and then you're a minute away from the end and the npc you have to protect dies because 2 champions windlasher casters focus him and kill him in less than 1 sec, you can't prevent that from happening, you can't heal someone that dies faster than it takes to cast a heal.
Waking up and paying attention to what's going on wouldn't have changed anything, we had someone assigned to heal him whenever he took the slightest bit of damage, exactly to prevent him from dying at all costs.
Those casters were the nr1 targets, but that still didn't stop them from attacking and killing the NPC. (We ran the quest on hard, not elite)

Yes, this is just 1 example, but I'm sure you've already heard many more.. I know I have

i'm not trying to denigrate your experience here, just using it as a springboard for thought.

more and more i feel like i am becoming an outlier myself as regards DDO. after playing the heck out of it for years perhaps my approach is different. for example, in the scenario you described above, i can't say that i would be all that upset with a failure. things like that make the game more realistic to me - that the deadly enemies you face would indeed try their utmost to slay the very creatures your party is tasked to protect.

except unlike real life, or pencil and paper, the consequences are practically negligible. some time, some plat to repair your stuff, and that's it.

even chalking it up to that unfortunate random element of a particularly nasty champ or a regular dude who got off a lucky shot, so what? really, so. what.

it is absolutely the truth that you can redo a quest and have a different outcome. that was the case before champions and it is after them. it's always been that way.

[Enoach]

Elite has always been challenging for fresh characters using only what gear is currently available

I've been playing since '06. Just before champions even made it to the scene I myself tried to solo the Cannieth Crystal on Elite, and while I was not getting killed I noticed on my first two attempts that if a single person walked up to the crystal a single attack animation appeared to be enough to end the quest. So I had to rethink how I was doing this. Mind you this is a 4th life character using the starter gear (weapons/armor/equipment) granted from completing the tutorial quest (I don't TR all that often so I like to see the changes over time), so even before champs this crystal was getting owned. My switch up was to use the first level summon scroll dog (I had to leave Korthos to go purchase this, something I realize might be difficult for first lifers) and a fighter hireling (I wanted something sturdy). Their role was simply agro/early warning, anything to get them from going to the crystal. This worked. Now what this tells me is that this quest is staying true to the original intention by Turbine to design all quests with the idea that the party size is 4 as the summon/hire and myself could now keep up with the number of spawns at any time. Shortmaning/solo is a player adding in additional difficulty. However, scaling does adjust the HP/damage output.

However, what I miss that I think was very beneficial to the new and returning player is the Training areas on what is now the Cove Event Island. These were areas specifically designed to help a player understand how to use the skills of the player, be it finding traps, tumbling, turn undead, spell casting/memorization or combat. If you actually talked to the NPCs they had advice that was helpful in understanding the complexity a person was getting into. Vets could simply talk to Skip and bypass the whole area.

I can't imagine anyone wanting the highest difficulty to be an Auto-Win, I think the whole point is that there is a risk of failure. But I will agree that just maybe even on elite the crystal should be a bit more forgiving then 1 to 2 swings.

By the way I enjoy playing Chutes and Ladders and Candyland with my kids. They are great games to teach that anything is possible and just because you get out front early does not mean you won't end up behind.

One additional piece of advice I would give to the OP is that if you find a quest difficult and just can't find a way to succeed, sometimes it is best to move on to a different quest. I say this because I've done this to have these other quests drop something that made it easier to complete the quest I was having trouble with. Sometime better gear and sometimes a consumable that gives me the edge.

Champions can be rough and I think as time goes on Turbine will find a good balance for how they are used for both Heroic and Epic.

[Keladon]

i'm not trying to denigrate your experience here, just using it as a springboard for thought.

more and more i feel like i am becoming an outlier myself as regards DDO. after playing the heck out of it for years perhaps my approach is different. for example, in the scenario you described above, i can't say that i would be all that upset with a failure. things like that make the game more realistic to me - that the deadly enemies you face would indeed try their utmost to slay the very creatures your party is tasked to protect.

except unlike real life, or pencil and paper, the consequences are practically negligible. some time, some plat to repair your stuff, and that's it.

even chalking it up to that unfortunate random element of a particularly nasty champ or a regular dude who got off a lucky shot, so what? really, so. what.

it is absolutely the truth that you can redo a quest and have a different outcome. that was the case before champions and it is after them. it's always been that way.

I don't care about the plat, I do care about the time. It's all about time. If I'm going to spend my time playing a game, I'd like to have fun.. it's hard for me to view an experience like that as "fun".
Time is a valuable commodity and limited too. If I have to spend that time failing a quest because of something that is out of my control (this includes lag too), I would have rather done something else.
If you got 10% of the xp for every 10% of progress, this wouldn't be as much of an issue, but with DDO it's pretty much all or nothing.

So sure, when I still lived with my parents, had no job, no worries.. replaying quests because of something like that wouldn't have bothered me as much, but when the time you can spend on games become limited..

[Enoach]

I don't care about the plat, I do care about the time. It's all about time. If I'm going to spend my time playing a game, I'd like to have fun.. it's hard for me to view an experience like that as "fun".
Time is a valuable commodity and limited too. If I have to spend that time failing a quest because of something that is out of my control (this includes lag too), I would have rather done something else.
If you got 10% of the xp for every 10% of progress, this wouldn't be as much of an issue, but with DDO it's pretty much all or nothing.

So sure, when I still lived with my parents, had no job, no worries.. replaying quests because of something like that wouldn't have bothered me as much, but when the time you can spend on games become limited..

I like to play card games and board games but when I don't win I don't consider it a waste of time. If I did then watch out Vegas I'm coming. I don't live with my parents and I have a job and I see my entertainment time as my entertainment success or failure to win, but it is in the attitude that I have in that failure is simply a learning experience towards success. Now there are many quests in DDO that have optional XP that is earned and there are a number of places where this optional XP (which is based on the percentage of the base quest XP) is literally in the way so it makes sense to complete. However, outside of XP quests also have loot that can be obtained even with a failure (breakables and chests), this loot can be used to make your chances better be it directly or in converting it to coin to get the tools to succeed. It is also gaining personal experience of what went wrong and how can I approach this problem better.

So no it is not All or nothing in DDO there are ways to advance even on a failure.

[Bargol]

I like to play card games and board games but when I don't win I don't consider it a waste of time. If I did then watch out Vegas I'm coming. I don't live with my parents and I have a job and I see my entertainment time as my entertainment success or failure to win, but it is in the attitude that I have in that failure is simply a learning experience towards success. Now there are many quests in DDO that have optional XP that is earned and there are a number of places where this optional XP (which is based on the percentage of the base quest XP) is literally in the way so it makes sense to complete. However, outside of XP quests also have loot that can be obtained even with a failure (breakables and chests), this loot can be used to make your chances better be it directly or in converting it to coin to get the tools to succeed. It is also gaining personal experience of what went wrong and how can I approach this problem better.

So no it is not All or nothing in DDO there are ways to advance even on a failure.

Younger generations were raised on the whole "everyone gets a trophy for just showing up". They didn't have normal grades, they didn't have people being held back grades, and instead everyone passes.

This mentality has taught them that they must auto-win everything they try, if they don't auto-win its not worth trying, this is the case whether it is in life/work, or in leisure for fun.

Far to many people on the forums seem to think that the game is all about some imaginary end point where they win or are done. However, the game in reality is all about the journy and enjoying it with other people. So suceed or fail its still fun.

[Keladon]

Younger generations were raised on the whole "everyone gets a trophy for just showing up". They didn't have normal grades, they didn't have people being held back grades, and instead everyone passes.

This mentality has taught them that they must auto-win everything they try, if they don't auto-win its not worth trying, this is the case whether it is in life/work, or in leisure for fun.

Far to many people on the forums seem to think that the game is all about some imaginary end point where they win or are done. However, the game in reality is all about the journy and enjoying it with other people. So suceed or fail its still fun.

Good thing I'm not part of that generation then.
Good thing I never got anything handed to me and had to work hard for everything I had and have. (just saying, I know that's not directed at me.. But I do know far too many people of 'that generation')

And yes, most card and board games are different.
If I lose, I lose.. if I win, I win.
I play to win, but I don't mind losing.. because winning wouldn't get me anything I wouldn't have had when I lost..

I can agree that failing can be fun tough, I used to have some long and hard raid runs back in the day, we failed but we had fun, we also learned from that experience. You know what to watch and where, you learn what gear to bring, what skills to use. If I'm learning, I don't mind failing, it makes me better.
Something random beyond my control that makes me fail a quest, not really something you can call a learning experience.

*snip*
So no it is not All or nothing in DDO there are ways to advance even on a failure.

Getting 10% vs 110%, you're right, it's not All or nothing, it's all or almost nothing.
My above answer applies to your post aswell, with champions all that personal experience or loot won't help me one bit. It might in static situations, but not in something 100% random.

[LongshotBro]

Younger generations were raised on the whole "everyone gets a trophy for just showing up". They didn't have normal grades, they didn't have people being held back grades, and instead everyone passes.

This mentality has taught them that they must auto-win everything they try, if they don't auto-win its not worth trying, this is the case whether it is in life/work, or in leisure for fun.

Far to many people on the forums seem to think that the game is all about some imaginary end point where they win or are done. However, the game in reality is all about the journy and enjoying it with other people. So suceed or fail its still fun.

i'm not sure where the whole "it's only fun if i win without question" arose from. at any rate, yes i agree with the point made here.

[LongshotBro]

Good thing I'm not part of that generation then.
Good thing I never got anything handed to me and had to work hard for everything I had and have. (just saying, I know that's not directed at me.. But I do know far too many people of 'that generation')

And yes, most card and board games are different.
If I lose, I lose.. if I win, I win.
I play to win, but I don't mind losing.. because winning wouldn't get me anything I wouldn't have had when I lost..

I can agree that failing can be fun tough, I used to have some long and hard raid runs back in the day, we failed but we had fun, we also learned from that experience. You know what to watch and where, you learn what gear to bring, what skills to use. If I'm learning, I don't mind failing, it makes me better.
Something random beyond my control that makes me fail a quest, not really something you can call a learning experience.

this could be part of the issue - let go of some of that feeling.

look at it like this: at face value, a game is 100% luck/random chance. every thing you do to affect that moves the odds in your favor. but there is always going to be a portion you cannot control. accept it and things will go a lot smoother. using a card game like Magic is a perfect example. the most well-constructed deck is still going to have a chance of bad draw, bad luck, or the opponent simply getting better luck than you. i myself balk at players who scoop as soon as things don't go their way, so maybe that is why my experience in DDO is different as well.

[Keladon]

this could be part of the issue - let go of some of that feeling.

look at it like this: at face value, a game is 100% luck/random chance. every thing you do to affect that moves the odds in your favor. but there is always going to be a portion you cannot control. accept it and things will go a lot smoother. using a card game like Magic is a perfect example. the most well-constructed deck is still going to have a chance of bad draw, bad luck, or the opponent simply getting better luck than you. i myself balk at players who scoop as soon as things don't go their way, so maybe that is why my experience in DDO is different as well.

I would look at it like that, if that was actually the reality

There's a lot I don't control in games and I accept that, but throwing something at me that is auto-fail is not challenging, difficult or fun.

I don't like card games like Magic, too much luck involved, chess on the other hand..
Is chess 100% luck/random chance? My moves will determine what happens next and that can be in my favor or not.. Yet it's still about skill.

[Enoach]

I would look at it like that, if that was actually the reality

There's a lot I don't control in games and I accept that, but throwing something at me that is auto-fail is not challenging, difficult or fun.

I don't like card games like Magic, too much luck involved, chess on the other hand..
Is chess 100% luck/random chance? My moves will determine what happens next and that can be in my favor or not.. Yet it's still about skill.

See I think this is where the disconnect is. Champions are not Auto-Fail. Can they lead to failure? Sure, but to say they are auto fail would mean that if one showed up in the quest you might as well recall or Turbine might as well switch the quest objectives to "Failed". Yes champions ramped up the failure chances on Hard/Elite difficulties. But they are not auto-fail, unless that is the attitude a person takes. When Shroud first came out there were groups that would quit in part two if certain Lieutenants were in the mix and some groups that would quit if the groups failed to coordinate killing all 4 at the same time. In their mind it was an auto-fail, but it wasn't. Even then groups could recover - The trees slowly regenerated SP for example a little patience and a little timing and finally groups getting creative on how to take them down is all it took. Champions are simply the new problem that the players need to figure out and get past. It might take a little time but I have faith we can overcome it. Of course it might also be that Turbine decides to tweak them again maybe adjust spawn rates and abilities better based on both difficulty (Hard/Elite) as well as Heroic vs Epic.

As for Chess that is a game of Bad moves and Worse moves. The goal is always to make less Worse moves than the opponent.

[LongshotBro]

I would look at it like that, if that was actually the reality

There's a lot I don't control in games and I accept that, but throwing something at me that is auto-fail is not challenging, difficult or fun.

I don't like card games like Magic, too much luck involved, chess on the other hand..
Is chess 100% luck/random chance? My moves will determine what happens next and that can be in my favor or not.. Yet it's still about skill.

fair point, and made me stop and think.

i suppose, it would be like chess if the players all played from a much, much smaller pool of pieces and with all skills, gear, stats, etc. static amongst them.

chess:magic::gauntlet:ddo but even then, there's a lot more variables in gauntlet than in chess

in all of those games, there is nothing akin to automatic failure that a player has at least some degree of effect on.

[Keladon]

fair point, and made me stop and think.

i suppose, it would be like chess if the players all played from a much, much smaller pool of pieces and with all skills, gear, stats, etc. static amongst them.

chess:magic::gauntlet:ddo but even then, there's a lot more variables in gauntlet than in chess

in all of those games, there is nothing akin to automatic failure that a player has at least some degree of effect on.

Wasn't. There wasn't anything like that in DDO.

And no, champions in general aren't auto-fail, the feature isn't auto-fail. But some of those outliers or 'bad' combination of buffs on champions are. Even if they're not for me, they could still be for the npc I have to protect or escort or the oject I have to defend.

I would just leave it at "I don't like champions" if others would just leave it at "I like champions".
But when those who like champions can see the flaws but refuse to admit they exist, you're going to have a long discussion..

I'm not saying champions are 100% bad, they're not the best solution (in my opinion) for a problem that only existed according to some, but still, they're not 100% bad.
If they took their time to implement them properly and looked at each quest individually to see how it would be influenced by champions, this could have been a succes.
Instead we get 100% random applied to everything.

[bartharok]

Wasn't. There wasn't anything like that in DDO.

Automatic success has been turned to probable success? Is that what the problem is?

[Keladon]

Automatic success has been turned to probable success? Is that what the problem is?

This is about automatic failure, I don't want automatic failure, I don't expect automatic success.

[Qhualor]

See I think this is where the disconnect is. Champions are not Auto-Fail. Can they lead to failure? Sure, but to say they are auto fail would mean that if one showed up in the quest you might as well recall or Turbine might as well switch the quest objectives to "Failed". Yes champions ramped up the failure chances on Hard/Elite difficulties. But they are not auto-fail, unless that is the attitude a person takes. When Shroud first came out there were groups that would quit in part two if certain Lieutenants were in the mix and some groups that would quit if the groups failed to coordinate killing all 4 at the same time. In their mind it was an auto-fail, but it wasn't. Even then groups could recover - The trees slowly regenerated SP for example a little patience and a little timing and finally groups getting creative on how to take them down is all it took. Champions are simply the new problem that the players need to figure out and get past. It might take a little time but I have faith we can overcome it. Of course it might also be that Turbine decides to tweak them again maybe adjust spawn rates and abilities better based on both difficulty (Hard/Elite) as well as Heroic vs Epic.

As for Chess that is a game of Bad moves and Worse moves. The goal is always to make less Worse moves than the opponent.

Exactly. Before Champions were toned down I saw groups just starting to use more brain and less brawn. Now its mostly back to the way it was pre-Champions but with specific cases where Champions can be problematic. I think the devs have more than enough feedback on current Champions and I'm just waiting for their next tweak I'm assuming will be by next update.

[bartharok]

You seem to (deliberately?) misunderstand what's being said.

This is about automatic failure, I don't want automatic failure, I don't expect automatic success.

You seem to be of the opinion that champions cause failure in a way that is unacceptable. Because its something you cant eliminate in advance, Which more or less (in my book) translates to failure being unacceptable if you cant avoid it by doing X. And if you can always avoid it by doing X, it means practically no chance of failure. Which again would mean that you DO want automatic success.

And as said, i am cynical about the motivations of people

[Chai]

Large randomization is a mistake IMO, regardless if intended or not. It randomizes the effective quest level by allowing some runs of the same quest to be relatively easy and others hard beyond the nominal level of the quest. That is just silly.

If this were in some end game content, I'd have a lot less issue with it. But it's not. It's basically being added as a pacifier for those looking for something to do in place of the games nonexistent end game.

So not only are they trying to cheap their way out of developing an end game, they are doing it in a cheap, one size fits all manner that only "fits all" by breaking much content to fit in.

I really wish whoever was calling the shots would either approve a proper budget for what they add or tone down what is added to something that can be done right in the amount of dev time they are willing to put into it. Because trying to do to much with to little is getting old.

Id agree with you here if the game only had one difficulty setting and it was take it or leave it. That's not the case however. There are 4 sizes.

The big elephant in the middle of the room no one wants to address is the entitlement factor where people believe they should be able to run elite no fail brute force. The "one size fits all" argument would be valid if the game only had one size. It has 4 however, but people arguing the "one size fits all" argument refuse to choose 3 of the 4 - and base their position on the assumption that elite is the entire game because few run anything else. Turbines sole error here was cultivating an atmosphere where elite became the default difficulty for most of the in game populace. When they take one step to reverse that, the negative feedback power level goes over 9000.

[Keladon]

You seem to be of the opinion that champions cause failure in a way that is unacceptable. Because its something you cant eliminate in advance, Which more or less (in my book) translates to failure being unacceptable if you cant avoid it by doing X. And if you can always avoid it by doing X, it means practically no chance of failure. Which again would mean that you DO want automatic success.

And as said, i am cynical about the motivations of people

I am of the opinion that failure that you can do nothing about is not acceptable.
I don't know why that would be wrong, it sounds logical.
If gear, past lives, experience, learning, preparation, skill, .. don't mean anything during some encounters but it's just *poof*, you're dead, I feel like that's not acceptable.

Id agree with you here if the game only had one difficulty setting and it was take it or leave it. That's not the case however. There are 4 sizes.

The big elephant in the middle of the room no one wants to address is the entitlement factor where people believe they should be able to run elite no fail brute force. The "one size fits all" argument would be valid if the game only had one size. It has 4 however, but people arguing the "one size fits all" argument refuse to choose 3 of the 4 - and base their position on the assumption that elite is the entire game because few run anything else. Turbines sole error here was cultivating an atmosphere where elite became the default difficulty for most of the in game populace. When they take one step to reverse that, the negative feedback power level goes over 9000.

So your answer for someone who liked to run elite before champions because it was a nice challenge is to run normal now? (it wasn't no fail and I didn't just use brute force)
Normal isn't fun, elite was fun. Saying I should run normal doesn't fix anything, it's not a solution.

What I'm seeing is complaints about champions being too hard followed by vets saying they hardly notice them.
What is this? A lose/didn't win situation?