Vip - rip

[Chai]

I agree that those quests need to be dealt with individually, but if you bump the defenses of the NPC's/protect items then you have a situation where unless an uber champion spawns, those quests would become nearly impossible to fail.

There are certain quests where champions have a much greater impact than others - escort/protect quests are among them. Sure (most of) those quests had issues already, but putting champions into them can come close to "breaking" those quests.

The NPCs having a good chance to live doesn't make the quest nearly impossible to fail, because the regular mobs as well as the champions still pose the same danger to the PCs as they would in any other quest. They just pose less danger to the NPCs. In the high road for instance the NPC makes himself invulnerable when attacked using a force field, yet the party can still wipe if they cant handle the mobs themselves, or run head first into the trapped area. In this regard monster champions still affect the overall quest difficulty, but do so in a way the players can attempt to control, rather than having some NPC run off and get itself killed (which is an issue with or without champions).

[BD_]

Use the barb hire. Never fail the quest again. Heck you can even go on a bio break and come back when its over 1/2 the time.

LOL I actually usually wait til lvl 3 to do this quest (xp gems + Grotto + Heyton's Rest and Storehouse Secret to get to lvl 3) pop the lvl 3 barb, lvl 3 perm gold seal cleric from cata starter pack, and roderick's wand or snow ele summon gem and afk the entire quest.

[Postumus]

LOL I actually usually wait til lvl 3 to do this quest (xp gems + Grotto + Heyton's Rest and Storehouse Secret to get to lvl 3) pop the lvl 3 barb, lvl 3 perm gold seal cleric from cata starter pack, and roderick's wand or snow ele summon gem and afk the entire quest.

Yes, that's definitely the coffee break/bio quest in Korthos. That and the final fight for Redemption if either Lars or Amalgam are champions.

[Gremmlynn]

It seems to me that the work needed to make Champions a smooth, bug-free feature couldn't be that much more than simply adjusting the base line of all mobs on E and H - the thing that should have been done in the first place. Furthermore, adjustments for Champions breaks the quests when you get lucky and don't have Champions.

I sense a great deal of win in this paragraph.

Hell if they had even toned down the randomness a bit, it wouldn't be so bad. Normalizing how many can exist in each quest or encounter, rather than somewhere between zero and all mobs inclusive, depending on the dice. Excluding respawning and "nuisance" type mobs would also be a good idea. Hell just having champion's debuff effects die with them would help. Few things more annoying than constantly respawning weak champion mobs that live just long enough to spam their debuffs in a boss fight.

[BD_]

The NPCs having a good chance to live doesn't make the quest nearly impossible to fail, because the regular mobs as well as the champions still pose the same danger to the PCs as they would in any other quest. They just pose less danger to the NPCs. In the high road for instance the NPC makes himself invulnerable when attacked using a force field, yet the party can still wipe if they cant handle the mobs themselves, or run head first into the trapped area. In this regard monster champions still affect the overall quest difficulty, but do so in a way the players can attempt to control, rather than having some NPC run off and get itself killed (which is an issue with or without champions).

For some quests yes, but for some - especially those where mobs tend to agro on the NPC's and the NPC's fight back it would make them too easy - for example if you make Tesera or Brawnpits or Dereward too strong, those quests would become nearly impossible for anyone even halfway competent to fail (once you make it to the portions where they come into play).

[BD_]

Yes, that's definitely the coffee break/bio quest in Korthos. That and the final fight for Redemption if either Lars or Amalgam are champions.

Haven't done Korthos since champions, my lowest level character was level 4 when champions came out. I can imagine how easy that would be with one of them as a champion though. Now if they reintroduced the bug where Amalgam would kill Lars...

[Vooduspyce]

If champs had been placed exclusively in a new, rewarding level of difficulty, and the rest of the game left alone -they would have been pure win.

This.

Please make this happen. New Difficulty: Champion (the way they were when released) flat +20% xp bonus.

[Gremmlynn]

Most of those issues were issues before champions. The one I see talked about the most is escort or protect quests. The issues there didn't begin with monster champions entering the game. This is why I suggest dealing with those issues at the quest level, rather than asking for removal of something which provides a chance of failure. Maybe NPCs need better PRR or the cannith crystal needs more HP.

Then the those NPCs or the Cannith Crystal become easy mode when the worse case doesn't happen.

The problem is that they took random to far as far as how many champions can appear in a quest, how many in a group, how many buffs they can have and in what combination. Elite, and to a lesser effect hard, has to much variance on exactly how much challenge it adds to a quest. That's not even getting in to the situational issues the implementation causes. Escort missions, boss fights, the fact that champions have a much greater effect on quests with greater numbers of mobs due to having more chances for champions who will be stacking more debuffs, etc..

More consistency is called for IMO, as well as more detailed implementation than is likely to be approved for champions to be done right IMO.

[Chai]

Then the those NPCs or the Cannith Crystal become easy mode when the worse case doesn't happen.

Already addressed this part. The PCs are still just as vulnerable to champions and failure chance, even if the NPCs are not - thus it would not be total easy mode. We cant complain about NPCs being one shot then turn around and complain that beefing them up makes it easy mode. There is a happy medium here that can be found. Its not one extreme or the other only.

The problem is that they took random to far as far as how many champions can appear in a quest, how many in a group, how many buffs they can have and in what combination. Elite, and to a lesser effect hard, has to much variance on exactly how much challenge it adds to a quest. That's not even getting in to the situational issues the implementation causes. Escort missions, boss fights, the fact that champions have a much greater effect on quests with greater numbers of mobs due to having more chances for champions who will be stacking more debuffs, etc..

More consistency is called for IMO, as well as more detailed implementation than is likely to be approved for champions to be done right IMO.

Ive suggested limiting the number that can appear per encounter (not per quest). It makes sense that one or two mobs would be stronger and be bossing a few weaker versions of itself around.

I do like the variance however...It makes elite actually elite again. If it was all the same and very predictable, it quickly becomes metagame-able in a formulaic fashion to the point where its just another easy button. Now people actually have to be alert and cant get complacent when playing the difficulty settings champions appear in. When you open that door you don't know exactly what is going to be standing there.

[Keladon]

Then the those NPCs or the Cannith Crystal become easy mode when the worse case doesn't happen.

The problem is that they took random to far as far as how many champions can appear in a quest, how many in a group, how many buffs they can have and in what combination. Elite, and to a lesser effect hard, has to much variance on exactly how much challenge it adds to a quest. That's not even getting in to the situational issues the implementation causes. Escort missions, boss fights, the fact that champions have a much greater effect on quests with greater numbers of mobs due to having more chances for champions who will be stacking more debuffs, etc..

More consistency is called for IMO, as well as more detailed implementation than is likely to be approved for champions to be done right IMO.

The last thing I want to see is for quests to be adjusted to accomodate champions, they need to adjust champions so they don't break quests.

It's like you said, the 100% random nature of champions is the problem. Balance buff combinations, champion amounts, buff amounts, remove certain mobs from spawning as champions, remove background 'items' from spawning as champions. Put some effort and time into champions instead of just introducing a feature that affects EVERYTHING. Right now champions feel like a lazy & quick fix to something that wasn't even a problem for a lot of the players.
If it's not broken, don't try to fix it!

[Cetus]

Look at Cetus. he will argue until he is blue in the face if any build looks better than his.

Complete perversion and misrepresentation.

[myliftkk_v2]

Then the those NPCs or the Cannith Crystal become easy mode when the worse case doesn't happen.

The problem is that they took random to far as far as how many champions can appear in a quest, how many in a group, how many buffs they can have and in what combination. Elite, and to a lesser effect hard, has to much variance on exactly how much challenge it adds to a quest. That's not even getting in to the situational issues the implementation causes. Escort missions, boss fights, the fact that champions have a much greater effect on quests with greater numbers of mobs due to having more chances for champions who will be stacking more debuffs, etc..

More consistency is called for IMO, as well as more detailed implementation than is likely to be approved for champions to be done right IMO.

You're suggesting narrowing the parameters until once again everyone has meta-gamed the champions into simplicity, right?

Large randomisation is a feature, not a bug.

[myliftkk_v2]

If it was all the same and very predictable, it quickly becomes metagame-able in a formulaic fashion to the point where its just another easy button. Now people actually have to be alert and cant get complacent when playing the difficulty settings champions appear in. When you open that door you don't know exactly what is going to be standing there.

Everytime sometimes chimes in about wanting more "consistency" in champions, this is the appropriate retort.

[LongshotBro]

I do agree that a one shot, quest failure scenario is unpleasant and that a few attempts to try and succeed could be irritating. I have felt that frustration personally as well over the course of my time in this game. How I overcome that frustration is find a different way of doing things, which could include just skipping that quest altogether.

But this is what a 4-5 minute quest at most? So you have to try a few times to succeed on the hardest difficulty in the game, you lose what...15 minutes?

This life on an int based pure rogue running that quest with champs before the fix, it took me two attempts with the barb hire, first spawn, 1-2 shot, quest over, 20 seconds wasted, big deal, reset / repeat, second attempt was a success. Kept my BB...but still not huge xp even if running BB. Heck I would of even broke BB and done normal if I failed a few times and then pickup the BB again later. It's such a low level quest that it's insignificant in the grand scheme of my TR train journey.

If it's really that big a deal, run it as the very first quest after TR on normal to get it out of the way, or just skip it altogether if it's that much of a stress to you.

I am just not seeing what all the drama is over a low level quest. Things need to be tweaked a bit, it's been acknowledged by the devs, can we put this one to bed already and move on?

I am glad that the element of failure is back on the table and that things are not the easy button they used to be. It has forced me to actually start planning and preparing again and to decide which quests are worth doing and which ones I can skip.

If you are after the favour, then hate to say it, but you might have to play the quests a few times to get there...I don't see a problem with that...not everything should be easily accessible and some things should require an element of chance in order to succeed. Things shouldn't always be predictable, that's already an issue with metagaming the content...this cannot be predicted or prepared for and I am ok with that because it's such a short quest that even if I have to try it a few times to succeed I will or I will adjust my approach and just skip it altogether or run it on a different setting.

That's the problem with this day and age is that some people expect everything to be handed to them the first attempt... that should never be the case. Failure forces people to rethink their approach and strategy in any scenario. if luck isn't on your side, well it's unfortunate, get over it and move on...don't let something so insignificant ruin your enjoyment of the game. Seriously how many times have you ran this quest over the course of you DDO history? is it really that important to you that you MUST run it every life on Elite? If that's the case the problem might not be so much the fact that the quest irritates you or that the game mechanics are not favourable in the quest because of that element of failure is out of your control, but more the fact that you are not flexible to adapt with changes in the game and to adjust your approach. The game will evolve with updates, things will need to be tweaked including your play style, the game mechanics or the content.

That's the reality of an ever changing environment, you adapt and overcome.

i'll agree and take this one step farther, that i honestly don't see understand the drama on any level quest. There is always a chance of failure. And yes, it can certainly be deflating when that failure comes about because either a static or random element causes an immediate failure, but is it really worth getting upset over for more than a moment?

i get where people are coming from and i acknowledge their reasoning for being upset, but i don't have to respect it. Quest failure happens, if you're prepared/skilled/geared/powerful enough or not. On harder difficulties, that chance increases. In cases like the OP, when it stems from what you perceive as game design issues, why not just take comfort in the fact that as far as you know there was nothing you could do about it?

Or you can learn something, try again and do better. Maybe the result is what you perceive as wasted time or resources. In the OP case it's negligible on both counts. Since it's a required quest to proceed, just knock it out on lower difficulty and move on. Same goes with other required quests, which are few. Run the ones you think are fun, and avoid the ones you don't have fun in.

i've come and gone from this game so many times over the years for various reasons, and read countless threads, and i still just don't get all the whining. i get the feeling that you want to love every aspect of the game for whatever reason. For me, it's the D&D-ness of it. But sometimes it gets on my nerves and i leave for a bit. No game is ever going to please everyone in every conceivable way. Deal with it.

[Gremmlynn]

You're suggesting narrowing the parameters until once again everyone has meta-gamed the champions into simplicity, right?

Large randomisation is a feature, not a bug.

Large randomization is a mistake IMO, regardless if intended or not. It randomizes the effective quest level by allowing some runs of the same quest to be relatively easy and others hard beyond the nominal level of the quest. That is just silly.

If this were in some end game content, I'd have a lot less issue with it. But it's not. It's basically being added as a pacifier for those looking for something to do in place of the games nonexistent end game.

So not only are they trying to cheap their way out of developing an end game, they are doing it in a cheap, one size fits all manner that only "fits all" by breaking much content to fit in.

I really wish whoever was calling the shots would either approve a proper budget for what they add or tone down what is added to something that can be done right in the amount of dev time they are willing to put into it. Because trying to do to much with to little is getting old.

[bartharok]

Large randomization is a mistake IMO, regardless if intended or not. It randomizes the effective quest level by allowing some runs of the same quest to be relatively easy and others hard beyond the nominal level of the quest. That is just silly.

If this were in some end game content, I'd have a lot less issue with it. But it's not. It's basically being added as a pacifier for those looking for something to do in place of the games nonexistent end game.

So not only are they trying to cheap their way out of developing an end game, they are doing it in a cheap, one size fits all manner that only "fits all" by breaking much content to fit in.

I really wish whoever was calling the shots would either approve a proper budget for what they add or tone down what is added to something that can be done right in the amount of dev time they are willing to put into it. Because trying to do to much with to little is getting old.

I wish people could just say "I dont like champions" and leave it at that. Since that is basically what the issue is, everything else is justifying the dislike to people who do. Which wont change. Unless, of course the intention is getting the devs to say "OMG, we have made a horrible decision, lets just throw everything we did out of the window, and start making something person X likes".

Oh, and its not pointed at you in particular gremmlynn, just quoted you since i know you do dislike them.

[Qhualor]

Large randomization is a mistake IMO, regardless if intended or not. It randomizes the effective quest level by allowing some runs of the same quest to be relatively easy and others hard beyond the nominal level of the quest. That is just silly.

If this were in some end game content, I'd have a lot less issue with it. But it's not. It's basically being added as a pacifier for those looking for something to do in place of the games nonexistent end game.

So not only are they trying to cheap their way out of developing an end game, they are doing it in a cheap, one size fits all manner that only "fits all" by breaking much content to fit in.

I really wish whoever was calling the shots would either approve a proper budget for what they add or tone down what is added to something that can be done right in the amount of dev time they are willing to put into it. Because trying to do to much with to little is getting old.

quite the stretch here and I think people are reading more into something than they really should.

[Gremmlynn]

I wish people could just say "I dont like champions" and leave it at that. Since that is basically what the issue is, everything else is justifying the dislike to people who do. Which wont change. Unless, of course the intention is getting the devs to say "OMG, we have made a horrible decision, lets just throw everything we did out of the window, and start making something person X likes".

Oh, and its not pointed at you in particular gremmlynn, just quoted you since i know you do dislike them.

I actually don't dislike them...most of the time. It's when they effectively break quests that I have an issue.

I will say that I dislike that they were either not very well thought through or they were but implemented despite the issues they can cause though. If the latter, likely because solving them wasn't in the budget. If doing them right means many times the work, then IMO either commit to that or don't do it at all.

[Gremmlynn]

quite the stretch here and I think people are reading more into something than they really should.

That's pretty much my view on the game in general. They seem to get really ambitious then don't release things unpolished rather than budgeting the man hours to do them right. I would rather get less That is done right than that personally.

This goes back at least as far as the enhancement pass.

[Keladon]

That's pretty much my view on the game in general. They seem to get really ambitious then don't release things unpolished rather than budgeting the man hours to do them right. I would rather get less done right than that personally.

This goes back at least as far as the enhancement pass.

Pretty much this.

Less finished things > more unfinished things.

It gets even worse when they continue building on things that are unfinished..

I don't want yet another feature that makes me feel like I'm playing a beta game.

Again: If it's not broken, don't try to fix it! You'll just break it anyway..