Vip - rip

[Vellrad]

If spawning of a single champion equals to random quest failure, that means you can't handle a single champion and don't deserve completion. Perion, end of story.

[vryxnr]

It used to be that the crystal was vulnerable to friendly fire damage as well.

Back in the day, I'd fail that quest more times to ME swinging my sword too close to it and smashing it myself than from anything else.

I was actually rather sad when I discovered it got buffed to be immune to friendly fire. The dynamic of the quest changed a lot then, and rather than the previous eye-opening "oh wow you actually gotta be wary of your position, swing radius, etc" and "my actions have consequences!? Awesome!" moment as a green player (and revisiting it as a vet knowing it exemplified those game qualities and challenges and enjoying it), it became (for me) a let down and a yawn-fest where I didn't have to pay attention or care. That was not fun for me.

Champions brought a little bit of that back for me, but not quite in the same way.

[Nestroy]

The problem with your "very rarely" is it's not guaranteed failure at all. It's only a potential failure if the party or soloer can't handle the champs that do spawn quickly in the case of problematic ones. In the case of parties, I highly doubt they would fail ever, regardless of most unfortunate champ randomisation.

I've yet to see a single problematic champ or champs that couldn't be handled through fast thinking, or preparatory measures (barb hirelings) on quest levels 1-4. Odds are, if what monster champs people fear are so prevalent, I should've been one-shotted by now, at least one time. Not even close, and mind, I'm playing a pajamas wearer mostly naked gear-wise until level 5. I've still only managed to log one quest across all level 1-4 quests in which any death occured (and it was due to champs, somewhat) and that was totally my fault going into HE kobold assault with nothing more than starter light heal potion stacks and playing loose and sloppy. But, I didn't really concern myself, as the shrine is right there.

I had been unlucky twice so far. There are champ combinations (and you never knwo in advance, which champions) that combine a truckload of hp with a steamroler damage of epic proportions. Getting hit for 50 - 100 damage on lv. 1 quests is just plain braindead. Combining this with about 200-300 hp is ridiculous. Nothng. not even the Barb hires of lv. 1 and 3 can keep you from failing certain quests when that (and only that ) combination spawns. Except you can trip that champ, which might or might not be possible - traffic, lag, seeing too late, champ faster at NPC /Chrystall... Well, it´s not the fact there are these champs. Its the fact they spawn at random in quests where they are gamebreaking. In quests like "Kobold Assault" they add even some big time fun - and make the quest challenging but doable.

Protection quests have already been beaten into the ground that the NPCs need an upgrade now with Champions. The devs have even commented on it and I don't see any "pro-Champion" denying they need an upgrade. At this point we are just waiting on the devs to actually make these proper changes.

After the NPCs and hires get their boost, will we go back to using the "new player" argument or "it took an extra 5 swings to kill this Champion and had to throw a heal on myself. I didn't get a reward" argument or "I had to pause every so often to deal with a tougher than trash mob Champion" argument or "I was forced to resort to alternative tactics to beat down a Champion" argument?

Hopefully the devs will give some beef to the NPCs. This will not solve the general problem that there are quests where it would be better to completely have certain random feats and features from champs turned off. Mind you, I do not say the champs have to be castrated over the board. It would suffice if certain buffs or buff groups can be turned off for certain quests. Problem solved.

Are we, or are we not, talking about one specific level one quest? Youre in here now commenting about other quests which are higher level, as well as commenting about EE, after calling others out for not paying attention to the OP which has nothing to do with EE....

So.....Which is it? Are we discussing ONLY the cannith crystal, or the impact of champions on the entire game?

Do not get astray as did so many others here on that thread. OP complained low level content. Others brought in the EE discussion, which frankly and to my mind is ridiculous. We are not talking about EE when OP clearly stated that he started on lv. 1 Korthos quests.

And no, we are not discussing the impact on the whole game either. We dscuss that players are turned off playing by facing impossible odds at lowest levels - even if the difficulty is set to "Elite". I know that any vet player with any vet toon (multiple past lifes) has no problems at all with almost all quests with champs in them, run at level or below, with perhaps the exception of Terminal Delirium (mirror room).

Keep tho the discussion and do not try to distract!

When i heard about the problems people had with getting oneshotted in levelappropriate content, i made a heap of new toon on servers i dont usually play on. And didnt get oneshotted by anything.

The crystal can be destroyed by NON-champ critters, if you let them get to it. Solution: i work hard at not letting anything get to it. The solution is NOT making it unbreakable. If i fail, i sigh and do it again. I dont come to the forums proclaiming a holy crusade against anything that lowers my chances at success.

My epic TR train consists of ONE toon that did ONE ETR, because i wanted to see if it was worth the bother. Came to the conclusion that it wasnt, because i prefer using my brain while playing.

Ofc Cannith Crystall always had a squishy crystall and regular mobs always were able to reach and destroy the thing. The best strategy was in metagaming checking the spawnpoints and to pull aggro as fast as possible. Alas, there are two champ combinations that in said quest are nearly for sure a fail:
1.) Acolythe Champs with heightened magic damage spawing in line of sight of the crystall using their first spell to attack the crystall. Usually this is force or acid damage. Force damage usually does about 10 points on elite. The altered champs now cast with about 40-50 damage, oneshooting the crystall.
2.) 2 Melee / one melee and one caster champ spawning at the same time. One at least with very high hit points (usually in the 200s) and one at least with heightened damage output. While we try to stop the one champ the other kills the crystall with exactly one hit. This ofc could be mittigated by collecting a large group of experienced players first that work on at least 2 teams. But we are talking about lv. 1 Korthos quests here, not doing Xorian Cifer.

Both occurances have happened to me the last days. The accolythe was oneshoting the crystall, quest failed. With the 2 melee champs (one from the door, one from the corner) I got lucky initially. My lv. 1 Barb attacked the door guy and got killed, but kept the guy long enough from attacking the crystall that I was able to dispatch the second. Alas, the second cost me so much in resources that I had no time left to regain some health before the first one that killed my Barb just killed me too. **** happens. So this might be blamed to myself. But I shudder at the thought to meet these two inside on being solo... Crystall dead, quest over.

Bottom line - champs add a lot of randomness w/o giving anything in reward. Champs - you might get lucky and meet them when they just have some DR or elemental resistances. Or you have bad luck. Most champs are easy walk in the park types. A few rare are nasty. Generally they are a good idea (even if missing on the rewards department) but sometimes they are just plain frustrating.

If spawning of a single champion equals to random quest failure, that means you can't handle a single champion and don't deserve completion. Perion, end of story.

The point is: If certain spawned champs do not even give you a chance, this is no question of "if they are too strong, you are too weak", but it´s a question of "bad luck, try again". But DDO is no new version of online gambling, it´s an MMO. Out of about 20-30 champs you get that one champ out of hell. In normal quests you do not notice them much, except you are burning thru your heal pots faster and have a harder time to kill that mob. In dire consequence you may even die (and might blame this on yourself, because at least you had the chance to prepare or heal yourself). In a few quests these champs from hell ruin your gaming experience by making the quest an instant fail. And this should not happen.

[Vint]

Keep tho the discussion and do not try to distract!

Answer this question then.

So many people on the forums (not in game because it is just us talking here) love to see things at high level nerfed (Shiradi, EIN, Qpalm) and a host of other things that I enjoy at high level.

People complaining about nerfs have driven away players because they are forced to constantly reroll and repath characters. The game has become more of an annoyance instead of a “fun time” for them because of all the constant nerfs many forumites beg for.

I say that to ask, why the Hell should anyone here care if you or anyone else is suffering in low level content? Do you or the people that cry care that people are quitting because they are tired of the nerfs at high level?

I could care less what they do about champions, but it is becoming BS that everyone is up in arms about getting this fixed because it hurts their “play style” but they have no problem demanding nerfs that hurt other players “playstyle”.

Seriously! Many endgame players have left because of incompetent nerfs (asked for by forumites) so why should I or anyone else shed a tear if someone quits because they cannot get off Korthos.

[Chai]

Do not get astray as did so many others here on that thread. OP complained low level content. Others brought in the EE discussion, which frankly and to my mind is ridiculous. We are not talking about EE when OP clearly stated that he started on lv. 1 Korthos quests.

And no, we are not discussing the impact on the whole game either. We dscuss that players are turned off playing by facing impossible odds at lowest levels - even if the difficulty is set to "Elite". I know that any vet player with any vet toon (multiple past lifes) has no problems at all with almost all quests with champs in them, run at level or below, with perhaps the exception of Terminal Delirium (mirror room).

Keep tho the discussion and do not try to distract!

Yet after demanding we all stay on topic regarding talking only about the level 1 stuff and how we are not talking about EE, you write a post discussing multiple quests, most higher level than level 1, and begin referencing EE as well.

You are the one who is off topic here, by your own definition. In this post, where you list a bunch of quests which are not level 1 and begin talking about EE.

clicky

If you want to restrict the discussion to solely talk about players being turned off playing by facing impossible odds at lowest levels, you yourself must them refrain from posting about EE, as well as anything other than the one korthos quest under discussion, thus invalidating your entire list of quests you feel are negatively affected by monster champions. Either that, or refrain from quoting others and telling them to stay on topic, only to veer off said topic yourself.

You also did not respond to this, which only addresses the one specific quest.

Then if youre argument is about a single level 1 quest, something in that quest is the issue, and not the monster champions. They can give the crystal 10x as many HP to resolve that issue. Still a chance of failure, but the crystal wont be one shot by a monster with heightened damage capability.

Or that ONE QUEST can be played on a lower difficulty, and players can still enjoy their lack of any chance of failure.

Respond to this specifically, and be prepared to be asked to refrain from posting anything outside of this level one quest, as you have made the same demand of others repeatedly in this thread.

[sk3l3t0r]

I do agree that a one shot, quest failure scenario is unpleasant and that a few attempts to try and succeed could be irritating. I have felt that frustration personally as well over the course of my time in this game. How I overcome that frustration is find a different way of doing things, which could include just skipping that quest altogether.

But this is what a 4-5 minute quest at most? So you have to try a few times to succeed on the hardest difficulty in the game, you lose what...15 minutes?

This life on an int based pure rogue running that quest with champs before the fix, it took me two attempts with the barb hire, first spawn, 1-2 shot, quest over, 20 seconds wasted, big deal, reset / repeat, second attempt was a success. Kept my BB...but still not huge xp even if running BB. Heck I would of even broke BB and done normal if I failed a few times and then pickup the BB again later. It's such a low level quest that it's insignificant in the grand scheme of my TR train journey.

If it's really that big a deal, run it as the very first quest after TR on normal to get it out of the way, or just skip it altogether if it's that much of a stress to you.

I am just not seeing what all the drama is over a low level quest. Things need to be tweaked a bit, it's been acknowledged by the devs, can we put this one to bed already and move on?

I am glad that the element of failure is back on the table and that things are not the easy button they used to be. It has forced me to actually start planning and preparing again and to decide which quests are worth doing and which ones I can skip.

If you are after the favour, then hate to say it, but you might have to play the quests a few times to get there...I don't see a problem with that...not everything should be easily accessible and some things should require an element of chance in order to succeed. Things shouldn't always be predictable, that's already an issue with metagaming the content...this cannot be predicted or prepared for and I am ok with that because it's such a short quest that even if I have to try it a few times to succeed I will or I will adjust my approach and just skip it altogether or run it on a different setting.

That's the problem with this day and age is that some people expect everything to be handed to them the first attempt... that should never be the case. Failure forces people to rethink their approach and strategy in any scenario. if luck isn't on your side, well it's unfortunate, get over it and move on...don't let something so insignificant ruin your enjoyment of the game. Seriously how many times have you ran this quest over the course of you DDO history? is it really that important to you that you MUST run it every life on Elite? If that's the case the problem might not be so much the fact that the quest irritates you or that the game mechanics are not favourable in the quest because of that element of failure is out of your control, but more the fact that you are not flexible to adapt with changes in the game and to adjust your approach. The game will evolve with updates, things will need to be tweaked including your play style, the game mechanics or the content.

That's the reality of an ever changing environment, you adapt and overcome.

[Nestroy]

...

You know, Vint, even if that goes off topic again, there are always two sides to each and every demand. Usually the devs just swing the pendulum too far from one side to the other instead of finding some balance in the middle. I am usually strongly opposed to the nerf bat for mainly two reasons:
1.) Most "nerf this" or "nerf that" are not really nerf requests, but bad worded requests to balance the game better. EiN was OP? Compared to some of the current ED capstones it is not. QP OP? Make it work on EE. The problem usually is that comparable these feats, enhancements and skills that are perceived OP are just standing out in one way or the other from similar skils, feats and enhancements that just fail to perform. Compare EiN to Shadowdancer capstones or Magister... Instead of giving Magister some workable Capstone that is worth investing time, money and intelligence to make it work they nerf EiN. Most players said "EiN is so uber, when do we in Magister get something similar nice?" The Devs only hear "EiN is uber".
2.) With every nerf bat swing there is the risk working but related systems get unintentionally nerfed or broken.

In a perfect world the devs would try to do both, rebalancing unbalanced feats, enhancements and skills, while bettering systems that work sub par at comparable investment grades and times. In DDO we get wild pendulum swings and if you shelf your toon for about one year and dust it off then you find that the pendulum just has swung back again. Most nerfs are just undeserved. They try to cure a symptom, not the underlying problem in balancing.

...

You know, Chai, you just happen to remind me of a good friend of mine. He is a journalist and a freakingly good one too. Always he is able to turn the words in the mouth of his interview partners. Always he has the knack of passing his own oppinion as the ultimate truth. And always he is using wrong accusations and allegations to provoke his vice-versa and then turns the already twisted words out of the mouth of his vice-versas against them. Usually this works perfectly well and makes him one of the best "investigative" journalists in his media branch. But his style reeks of sophism. He usually wins in discussions, but there is always a bad taste in the mouth left on his wins. I none the less love to have him on my side instead of as an enemy. I am strongly of the oppinion you would be a perfect candidate for the head of the "Ministry of Truth" in the Orwellian sense.

And now put your EE allegations to where they belong and keep cool. This discussion will pass, even without your twists and eddies.

[Bargol]

You know, Chai, you just happen to remind me of a good friend of mine. He is a journalist and a freakingly good one too. Always he is able to turn the words in the mouth of his interview partners. Always he has the knack of passing his own oppinion as the ultimate truth. And always he is using wrong accusations and allegations to provoke his vice-versa and then turns the already twisted words out of the mouth of his vice-versas against them. Usually this works perfectly well and makes him one of the best "investigative" journalists in his media branch. But his style reeks of sophism. He usually wins in discussions, but there is always a bad taste in the mouth left on his wins. I none the less love to have him on my side instead of as an enemy. I am strongly of the oppinion you would be a perfect candidate for the head of the "Ministry of Truth" in the Orwellian sense.

And now put your EE allegations to where they belong and keep cool. This discussion will pass, even without your twists and eddies.

Notice he didn't actually respond to Chai's comment? He is avoiding it completely because it invalidates his whole argument.

[Kaytis]

Answer this question then.

So many people on the forums (not in game because it is just us talking here) love to see things at high level nerfed (Shiradi, EIN, Qpalm) and a host of other things that I enjoy at high level.

People complaining about nerfs have driven away players because they are forced to constantly reroll and repath characters. The game has become more of an annoyance instead of a “fun time” for them because of all the constant nerfs many forumites beg for.

I say that to ask, why the Hell should anyone here care if you or anyone else is suffering in low level content? Do you or the people that cry care that people are quitting because they are tired of the nerfs at high level?

I could care less what they do about champions, but it is becoming BS that everyone is up in arms about getting this fixed because it hurts their “play style” but they have no problem demanding nerfs that hurt other players “playstyle”.

Seriously! Many endgame players have left because of incompetent nerfs (asked for by forumites) so why should I or anyone else shed a tear if someone quits because they cannot get off Korthos.

I see just as many high-level players beg for nerfs to the builds they don't play. It's not just the new guys wanting to try elite in Korthos. Look at Cetus. he will argue until he is blue in the face if any build looks better than his. Teh_troll was on a one-man mission to destroy monks -which he appears to have accomplished. There were folks who went on a crusade to end PM dominance and to clip FVS wings -they all got their way. Turbine just happened to throw the archon light nerf in for good measure -nobody ever asked for that and no one appreciated it.

The people protesting power couch it in terms of "balance", and claim people are leaving because things are too easy. But when the nerf bat comes the population drops. It always happens. I have had multiple guildies leave due to nerfs. The good news is that there are virtually none left to leave. It isn't because things got harder. It's because people worked hard to get where they were and get disillusioned when the rug is yanked out from under them. If champs had been placed exclusively in a new, rewarding level of difficulty, and the rest of the game left alone -they would have been pure win. The current implementation is text-book wrong. It pulls the rug out from under people and offers nothing in return.

[Chai]

I see just as many high-level players beg for nerfs to the builds they don't play. It's not just the new guys wanting to try elite in Korthos. Look at Cetus. he will argue until he is blue in the face if any build looks better than his. Teh_troll was on a one-man mission to destroy monks -which he appears to have accomplished. There were folks who went on a crusade to end PM dominance and to clip FVS wings -they all got their way. Turbine just happened to throw the archon light nerf in for good measure -nobody ever asked for that and no one appreciated it..

Right, and if any of those folks wanted champions removed they could be called on that contradiction as well.

The people protesting power couch it in terms of "balance", and claim people are leaving because things are too easy. But when the nerf bat comes the population drops. It always happens. I have had multiple guildies leave due to nerfs. The good news is that there are virtually none left to leave. It isn't because things got harder. It's because people worked hard to get where they were are get disillusioned when the rug is yanked out from under them. If champs had been placed exclusively in a new, rewarding level of difficulty, and the rest of the game left alone -they would have been pure win. The current implementation is text-book wrong. It pulls the rug out from under people and offers nothing in return.

If the game had one difficulty setting and it was take it or leave it, id agree with this. It does not however. A serious issue here is Elite became the default easy button completion for the most XP, and most people don't run the other difficulties, and those who do, refuse to run them as a first completion. The game needs to balance the population across all difficulty settings in order to be able to cater to all types of players, rather than making elite the easy XP button and leaving no headroom for incentive to build a better character.

Saying they left because its too easy doesn't really describe the real issue, so I understand the confusion regarding that claim - they left because the hardest difficulty in the game being as easy as it was offered no incentive to continue to build a better character, because it could be handedly beaten on characters with hilariously low investment. This should be reserved for Normal and Casual difficulties, and elite should be something that tests the better built and highly invested in characters.

[Kaytis]

Right, and if any of those folks wanted champions removed they could be called on that contradiction as well.



If the game had one difficulty setting and it was take it or leave it, id agree with this. It does not however. A serious issue here is Elite became the default easy button completion for the most XP, and most people don't run the other difficulties, and those who do, refuse to run them as a first completion. The game needs to balance the population across all difficulty settings in order to be able to cater to all types of players, rather than making elite the easy XP button and leaving no headroom for incentive to build a better character.

Saying they left because its too easy doesn't really describe the real issue, so I understand the confusion regarding that claim - they left because the hardest difficulty in the game being as easy as it was offered no incentive to continue to build a better character, because it could be handedly beaten on characters with hilariously low investment. This should be reserved for Normal and Casual difficulties, and elite should be something that tests the better built and highly invested in characters.

When people's feet get to big for the shoes you are making, make bigger shoes. Don't cut their toes off.

[Chai]

You know, Chai, you just happen to remind me of a good friend of mine. He is a journalist and a freakingly good one too. Always he is able to turn the words in the mouth of his interview partners. Always he has the knack of passing his own oppinion as the ultimate truth. And always he is using wrong accusations and allegations to provoke his vice-versa and then turns the already twisted words out of the mouth of his vice-versas against them. Usually this works perfectly well and makes him one of the best "investigative" journalists in his media branch. But his style reeks of sophism. He usually wins in discussions, but there is always a bad taste in the mouth left on his wins. I none the less love to have him on my side instead of as an enemy. I am strongly of the oppinion you would be a perfect candidate for the head of the "Ministry of Truth" in the Orwellian sense.

And now put your EE allegations to where they belong and keep cool. This discussion will pass, even without your twists and eddies.

You called out multiple people for being off topic due to their posts about EE and higher level quests, then went ahead and authored your own post about higher level quests and EE difficulty, and expected not to have this pointed out.

Best to take your own advice, before offering it to others.

You also failed to respond to the post I made regarding the Cannith Crystal quest yet again, after several iterations of attempting to restrict the entire conversation to that one quest (before you waffled on it yourself and typed up an entire list of other quests LOL). Youre avoiding responding to my Cannith crystal post because you cannot answer it without logically refuting your own position here.

[Chai]

When people's feet get to big for the shoes you are making, make bigger shoes. Don't cut their toes off.

The issue in DDO is the factory makes shoe sizes 5, 6, 7 and 8, when most of the population requires size 10.

The factory should instead start creating size 8, 9, 10, and 11.

Make the current difficulty settings do what they are supposed to, and fit the populations needs, before putting a new one in.

[Rykka]

I dont th.ink that soloing elite has been made impossible. Not in heroics, at least. What it has done is introduce a smallish chance of failure,which is what people protest against

Soloing Heroic Elite is certainly not impossible, even with a first life character. But for those worried about XP/second it seems to be a setback. I, for one, am not running underleveled HE's solo (now) on a first life character. I wait for a second and don't seem to have a problem finding them. I regard this as an improvement to the game.

[Gremmlynn]

Well, whether it's epic elite or heroic elite doesn't matter in my opinion. I don't see any problems here. Elite is designed to be the hardest difficulty in the game and it's for veteran players. If you are skilled enought, you can somehow pull it off even on a 1st lifer. I can't even begin to describe what seems to be the misconception here. If elite is the main problem, you have to get better or try other difficulty. What makes people think that, they can start a new game (level 1 first lifer) and jump right into the what is considered to be the deadliest difficulty in the game and not die? I understand that they hit hard, yes indeed, but I never encountered this situation where I said... It's impossible, I need to make a thread for this right now!. What have you done turbine!. I can prove this anytime of the day that any good TR toons can handle champs on any difficulty and they should.

First off, I question the judgment of anyone who thinks that first life or TR makes much of a difference, especially at low levels for most past lives.

But the point most are making has more to do with the inconsistency of effect champions have from one quest to the next or even from one run of the same quest to the next. Success or failure should have much more to do with how well one handles the quest than getting a good instance or a bad instance as for as where, which and how many champions it has. That just makes for bad game design in the opinion of many. It's not the champions most seem to have a problem with, it's the half asses implementation they went with.

[myliftkk_v2]

I had been unlucky twice so far. There are champ combinations (and you never knwo in advance, which champions) that combine a truckload of hp with a steamroler damage of epic proportions. Getting hit for 50 - 100 damage on lv. 1 quests is just plain braindead. Combining this with about 200-300 hp is ridiculous. Nothng. not even the Barb hires of lv. 1 and 3 can keep you from failing certain quests when that (and only that ) combination spawns. Except you can trip that champ, which might or might not be possible - traffic, lag, seeing too late, champ faster at NPC /Chrystall... Well, it´s not the fact there are these champs. Its the fact they spawn at random in quests where they are gamebreaking. In quests like "Kobold Assault" they add even some big time fun - and make the quest challenging but doable.

That you pulled an extremely rare combination of champs on a build explicitly not prepared for them (no no-fail CC option), or you missed your CC attempt, proves how rare it is. I've yet to see a champ hit for 50+ on a level 1 quest. Not saying it's impossible, but 'extremely rare' =/= 'gamebreaking'.

And no, we are not discussing the impact on the whole game either. We dscuss that players are turned off playing by facing impossible odds at lowest levels - even if the difficulty is set to "Elite". I know that any vet player with any vet toon (multiple past lifes) has no problems at all with almost all quests with champs in them, run at level or below, with perhaps the exception of Terminal Delirium (mirror room).

Here's the rub. If a new player expects to win elite right out of the gate, they are completely and utterly irrational. I was a new player not so very long ago and I had no illusions about what elite meant when I ran most things solo. It meant death and failure was highly possible, for any myriad of reasons. I didn't come into the game expecting to meta-game from day one (that's what happened as a result of static content/mobs/loot). I don't see champs as anything more than a new reason in the list of reasons a new player could fail on elite. If they're so burdensome to new players (who can't even open hard/elite unless they're VIP on day 1 - a real rarity I find when I take all puggers on low level quests) then I'd hear way more complaints within the game itself, which I don't.

Btw, DDO was already nothing more than loot gambling when it is no-fail on nearly every quest under the sun, so your claim doesn't hold water about champs making it more like gambling. Champs do introduce risk and I understand people dislike risk (not news), but this is the future of gaming, otherwise there's no "gaming" left in the actual game (you might as well go put together puzzles on your dinner table, the failure rate is equivalent).

[Chai]

First off, I question the judgment of anyone who thinks that first life or TR makes much of a difference, especially at low levels for most past lives.

But the point most are making has more to do with the inconsistency of effect champions have from one quest to the next or even from one run of the same quest to the next. Success or failure should have much more to do with how well one handles the quest than getting a good instance or a bad instance as for as where, which and how many champions it has. That just makes for bad game design in the opinion of many. It's not the champions most seem to have a problem with, it's the half asses implementation they went with.

Most of those issues were issues before champions. The one I see talked about the most is escort or protect quests. The issues there didn't begin with monster champions entering the game. This is why I suggest dealing with those issues at the quest level, rather than asking for removal of something which provides a chance of failure. Maybe NPCs need better PRR or the cannith crystal needs more HP.

[Vint]

The people protesting power couch it in terms of "balance", and claim people are leaving because things are too easy. But when the nerf bat comes the population drops. It always happens.

I agree with you, Katie. The problem still remains as people will still call for these nerfs because they consider things to be OP and then they complain when other things are too tough.

No crusade here and my PL’s definitely help me out when it comes to having an easier time than a new person, but it is very tiring to see the same people over and over again yelling because their porridge is either too hot or too cold.

There is no complaint on my end if Turbine gets rid of champions and we go back to zombie mode of just auto attacking our way back to level 20. I just wish that the crybabies on the forums would quit worrying about how others are playing and just eat the porridge in front of them.

[BD_]

Most of those issues were issues before champions. The one I see talked about the most is escort or protect quests. The issues there didn't begin with monster champions entering the game. This is why I suggest dealing with those issues at the quest level, rather than asking for removal of something which provides a chance of failure. Maybe NPCs need better PRR or the cannith crystal needs more HP.

I agree that those quests need to be dealt with individually, but if you bump the defenses of the NPC's/protect items then you have a situation where unless an uber champion spawns, those quests would become nearly impossible to fail.

There are certain quests where champions have a much greater impact than others - escort/protect quests are among them. Sure (most of) those quests had issues already, but putting champions into them can come close to "breaking" those quests.

[Postumus]

Did you use a hire?

Use the barb hire. Never fail the quest again. Heck you can even go on a bio break and come back when its over 1/2 the time.