Vip - rip

[bartharok]

The problem with champs in the current form is exactly that one single unlucky roll (spawning the one single champ from hell) can exactly make you fail lowest level quests. No save, no hit points, no anything the player can do. The chance for this to happen might be remote, but it may happen, it happened and it will happen again as long as there is any chance the champs can spawn that much out of balance as they can at the moment. Especially any escort quest or guard qest (e.g. Redemption, Cannith Crystall) are prone to exactly that kind of failure. On the other side you just might get lucky and see Heyton or Coyle spawning with a crown and having insane hit points as well. Alas, I have not seen the cannith crystall spawn with a crown so far.

That champs of hell are what the OP is complaining about and thats what some here try to communicate to the community. Random failure and nothing even the best player woth the best toon can do against it.

Of course you can do something about it. Prepare for the champion, even if it doesnt show up, and youre likely to succeed. And success should never be guaranteed on elite, not even in the lowest level quests.

Even if you fail, you are not likely to lose more than a few minutes anyway.

[Chai]

The problem with champs in the current form is exactly that one single unlucky roll (spawning the one single champ from hell) can exactly make you fail lowest level quests. No save, no hit points, no anything the player can do. The chance for this to happen might be remote, but it may happen, it happened and it will happen again as long as there is any chance the champs can spawn that much out of balance as they can at the moment. Especially any escort quest or guard qest (e.g. Redemption, Cannith Crystall) are prone to exactly that kind of failure. On the other side you just might get lucky and see Heyton or Coyle spawning with a crown and having insane hit points as well. Alas, I have not seen the cannith crystall spawn with a crown so far.

That champs of hell are what the OP is complaining about and thats what some here try to communicate to the community. Random failure and nothing even the best player woth the best toon can do against it.

Failure in those quests should be possible on elite. Players can choose a lower difficulty setting if they are not comfortable with having a chance of failure.

[dunklezhan]

Failure in those quests should be possible on elite. Players can choose a lower difficulty setting if they are not comfortable with having a chance of failure.

Chai I think you're being deliberately obtuse. You know what the poster is getting at - its not the chance of failure that's the problem. It's the chance of arbitrary failure which no amount of skill could avoid*, and which you can't learn anything from, because it's randomly generated.


*allegedly. I have yet to encounter one of these super champs everyone goes on about, though I've been killed by plenty of champs

[Nefatron]

... What I'd like to know is..
Remember them Kobold's in the the baudry line?
They can one shot any un-prepared player... So what do we do? We get resist's.
Ive been killed but a few champs, I honestly enjoy the random encounter with a champ.
Most of us can run this game on auto pilot, champs snapped me out of the grind and made me actually gear up before some low level quests or EE stuff.

I just cant grasp what people are complaining about..
Sorry you had to snap out of zombie mode and think a little bit.
But if your looking for click click die no thought kind game.. WoW is suppose to be going F2P have a blast.

[Nestroy]

Of course you can do something about it. Prepare for the champion, even if it doesnt show up, and youre likely to succeed. And success should never be guaranteed on elite, not even in the lowest level quests.

Even if you fail, you are not likely to lose more than a few minutes anyway.

Failure in those quests should be possible on elite. Players can choose a lower difficulty setting if they are not comfortable with having a chance of failure.

It´s not failure that is galling many players, it´s the fact that it is impossible to do something against that kind of failure. If I go into The Pit on level and do not care for ample damage mittigation, evasion, look up the floor plans, keep ready the puzzle solvers., etc., I am failing. I knwo the quest, I prepare, I do my best, and from time to time I am just not careful enough or concentrated enough and I fail. Because the quest is hard to do. That is fully OK. After all it is my fault when I fail - because I made a mistake in a quest that does not allow mistakes. But failing because I just got unlucky with a spawned champion that just happened to oneshot my escort NPC - now, this is just plain bad game design.

If I go into Terminal Delirium on Heroic Elite with any toon on level (lv. 19) w/o EDs and the like, I know what I do. The more I celebrate getting thru. But doing Redemption (a lv. 1 quest) on Heroic Elite and just getting bad luck - and that is the end fight this is just plain not right.

I always have to take into account the possibility of fail on elite quests, heroic and epic. Most quests simply do not allow for many mistakes. but failing a quest even if I do everything right just because there is a champ doing epic damage to a NPC... Well, there is failure and failure. I fail EE - fine, have done so and will do again - that´s the thing with running EE. But failing a lv. 1 tutorial quest because of sheer bad luck - should not happen, never ever.

Chai, Bartharok, just get down from your epic TR train Olymp into the plains of normalness! We are talking about a stinking lv. one quest, not Temple of the Deathwyrm on EE!!!

[Nestroy]

... What I'd like to know is..
Remember them Kobold's in the the baudry line?
They can one shot any un-prepared player... So what do we do? We get resist's.
Ive been killed but a few champs, I honestly enjoy the random encounter with a champ.
Most of us can run this game on auto pilot, champs snapped me out of the grind and made me actually gear up before some low level quests or EE stuff.

I just cant grasp what people are complaining about..
Sorry you had to snap out of zombie mode and think a little bit.
But if your looking for click click die no thought kind game.. WoW is suppose to be going F2P have a blast.

Since you mentioned Baudrys...

Remember the quest where you have to guard the chest? Guess what... Shaman Champ from Hell oneshotting the chest - now, what do you want to tell me about "prepare", about "enjoy"and "snap out of zombie mode"?

I agree with you that most quests with champs got a lot of fun back. I really like the champ idea. I still do. But I hate to fail a quest (especially at or near the end) on having a completely random mob spawn oneshooting whatever I have to guard...

If these champs would go against me, try to kill me, hit me with lightning bolts of 120 points of damage on my lv. 3 toon - all OK. But just oneshooting a NPC because they can and I cannot do anything against it... I cannot even mark and spellresist that damned Baudry´s chest... There is a difference between failure because I failed to do it right and failure because I cannot do anything against it and it´s just plain and completely random. Last is just plain bad game design on an MMO.

Edit: And do not get me started on ranting about "Tomb of the Tormented".

[Nefatron]

Be on your toes... Crowd Control, There is options.. and I know you just used it for a example. starting over a quest might not be what you want to do.. but face it nobody started playing this game a beast.. We all have party whipe's, long before the champs to.

and someone brought to my attention that these champs are just on hard and elite... play normal or casual. If you want big boy XP then you might have to take some hits..

I will admit that they need some tweaking.. The fact that a champ can go straight for the NPC your protecting or something like that SHOULD be controlled... but what can do

[Nestroy]

Be on your toes... Crowd Control, There is options.. and I know you just used it for a example. starting over a quest might not be what you want to do.. but face it nobody started playing this game a beast.. We all have party whipe's, long before the champs to.

and someone brought to my attention that these champs are just on hard and elite... play normal or casual. If you want big boy XP then you might have to take some hits..

Yeah, CC on a lv. 3 toon, or lv. 4 - clearly a winner here, boys!!!

Hello, Earth to Olymp, we are NOT talking about EE. We talk about freaking lv. one and lv. two quests!!!

By the way, the shamans cannot be targeted and intimi-CCed or anything in Baudry´s I because they snap out and back in again until they can target and kill the crate. I tried doing some stun, trip, intimi maneuvers - no sense. While I could easily target the champ once he destroyed the crate, it was impossible to do the maneuvers before the damage. That quest is bugged like hell.

Might add that on the second run we did the quest easily - because on HE there by chance were spawing no champs - just one of the sneaks, but none of the shamans... So basically failure or completion are now a completely random form of DDO roulette...

[Angelic-council]

OP complained about lowest 1st lv. quests, not about EE. Please read the thread, or at least the 1st post.

Well, whether it's epic elite or heroic elite doesn't matter in my opinion. I don't see any problems here. Elite is designed to be the hardest difficulty in the game and it's for veteran players. If you are skilled enought, you can somehow pull it off even on a 1st lifer. I can't even begin to describe what seems to be the misconception here. If elite is the main problem, you have to get better or try other difficulty. What makes people think that, they can start a new game (level 1 first lifer) and jump right into the what is considered to be the deadliest difficulty in the game and not die? I understand that they hit hard, yes indeed, but I never encountered this situation where I said... It's impossible, I need to make a thread for this right now!. What have you done turbine!. I can prove this anytime of the day that any good TR toons can handle champs on any difficulty and they should.

[Eth]

Yeah, CC on a lv. 3 toon, or lv. 4 - clearly a winner here, boys!!!

Every toon gets a CC option at level 1. For free even. Currently trip even work very well without any investment (which is due to a bug though).
I tried it on the weekend, works great (first lifer in elite content).

Champions one shotting a quest objective is pretty dumb though, no question there.
Might be more a problem of that quest specifically.

[Nestroy]

Well, whether it's epic elite or heroic elite doesn't matter in my opinion. I don't see any problems here. Elite is designed to be the hardest difficulty in the game and it's for veteran players. If you are skilled enought, you can somehow pull it off even on a 1st lifer. I can't even begin to describe what seems to be the misconception here. If elite is the main problem, you have to get better or try other difficulty. What makes people think that, they can start a new game (level 1 first lifer) and jump right into the what is considered to be the deadliest difficulty in the game and not die? I understand that they hit hard, yes indeed, but I never encountered this situation where I said... It's impossible, I need to make a thread for this right now!. What have you done turbine!. I can prove this anytime of the day that any good TR toons can handle champs on any difficulty and they should.

It´s not the point that any good vet player can handle the typical champs - we can, no doubt. The point is that there are champs that cannot be handled in time to prevent quest failure. Or that make quests, that are already tormenting, even more annoying up until these quests cannot be done or completed by certain builds or even by most builds except for a certain few.

Quests that do pose problems under the wrong circumstances:
Lv. 1: Redemption - Heyton is oneshot by spawning champs doing massive damage. Champs do this before they can be CCed. Happens rarely but happens.
Lv. 1: Cannith Crystal - mobs are invis until they hit the crystall. Under certain conditions a champ may spawn that can oneshoot the crystall before the champ might be CCed or aggroed. Happens rarely.
Lv. 2: Protect Baudry´s Interests - shaman champs cannot be targeted (bug) and by phasing in and out cannot be CCed on time to prevent them from oneshooting the crate. Happens rarely.
Lv. 4: The Bookbinder Rescue - already a very challenging quest on elite on anything else but a competent trapper, this quest even got more unforgiving. Having a competent trapper that can unlock doors goes miles in playability. But champs targeting family members might bring the quest to a fail any time and out of nothing. DDO roulette with a good chance of failure.
Lv. 5: A Small Problem . Brawnpits has literally tons of HP. But the wrong turn on the orange named and even he might succumb and just get smacked down into ash in a few seconds by these fire elementals. EE adds to the fun with champ doogies in the end fight. Usually the fire eles are CCable first. Thank god! Happens quite rarely that heath spirits are spawning as champs. Rarely they do massive damage. Even more rarely they target Brawnpits. if it happens its most annoying. Brawnpits might spawn a champ too, by the way.
Lv. 8: The Faithful Departed - needless to point out that orange named are often champs. That quest just got more random with the introduction of champs. You might get lucky and see Faithfuls with tons of hit points. Easy walk in the park. Or you just might see the scorrows nearby handing tons of damage and are oneshooting the faithful as you come nearby. DDO roulette at its worst.
Lv. 8: The Rescue - Threnal II, the prospector, already problematic quest, utter failure on the wrong champs getting near the prospector. At last there can be done something by keeping the prospector out of harms way as long as possible.
At that stage a honorable mention goes to Coyle. Since the quest cannot be failed anymore due to Coyle getting killed, you just loose the extra XP from the optional on a regular base. But Coyle on champ status now gives you a real shoot at the optional easily - nothing can kill that guy then... Since the quest meanwhile is no-fail (except for a wipe)...
Lv. 11: Tomb of the Tormented - needless to say more here. There are already threads with multiple pages complaining that quests and the champ worgs and champ carcass eaters...

To all and everybody: Just feel free to add to that list.

[Chai]

Chai I think you're being deliberately obtuse. You know what the poster is getting at - its not the chance of failure that's the problem. It's the chance of arbitrary failure which no amount of skill could avoid*, and which you can't learn anything from, because it's randomly generated.


*allegedly. I have yet to encounter one of these super champs everyone goes on about, though I've been killed by plenty of champs

Disagreement =/= lack of understanding.

They can learn plenty about not absolutely having to choose elite, and choosing a lower difficulty setting for one 5 minute quest in the beginning of the game. But instead, yet again, attempt to win that battle on the forums by having any chance of failure nerfed out of the quest rather than try different tactics, which were demonstrated work quite well closer to the beginning of this thread.

D&D is a random numbers based game. Skill plays a factor, metagaming a much larger factor, but failing or being killed by the dice, as well as massive success due to the dice, has always been a part of D&D based games, for almost 4 decades now. Chance has always been a factor.

[Chai]

Chai, Bartharok, just get down from your epic TR train Olymp into the plains of normalness! We are talking about a stinking lv. one quest, not Temple of the Deathwyrm on EE!!!

Then if youre argument is about a single level 1 quest, something in that quest is the issue, and not the monster champions. They can give the crystal 10x as many HP to resolve that issue. Still a chance of failure, but the crystal wont be one shot by a monster with heightened damage capability.

Or that ONE QUEST can be played on a lower difficulty, and players can still enjoy their lack of any chance of failure.

I am aware of what the discussion is about, and haven't once mentioned deathwyrm, but since you brought it up, raids don't have champions, so theres no possibility that we would be talking about deathwyrm on EE.

[myliftkk_v2]

It´s not the point that any good vet player can handle the typical champs - we can, no doubt. The point is that there are champs that cannot be handled in time to prevent quest failure. Or that make quests, that are already tormenting, even more annoying up until these quests cannot be done or completed by certain builds or even by most builds except for a certain few.

Quests that do pose problems under the wrong circumstances:
Lv. 1: Redemption - Heyton is oneshot by spawning champs doing massive damage. Champs do this before they can be CCed. Happens rarely but happens.
Lv. 1: Cannith Crystal - mobs are invis until they hit the crystall. Under certain conditions a champ may spawn that can oneshoot the crystall before the champ might be CCed or aggroed. Happens rarely.
Lv. 2: Protect Baudry´s Interests - shaman champs cannot be targeted (bug) and by phasing in and out cannot be CCed on time to prevent them from oneshooting the crate. Happens rarely.
Lv. 4: The Bookbinder Rescue - already a very challenging quest on elite on anything else but a competent trapper, this quest even got more unforgiving. Having a competent trapper that can unlock doors goes miles in playability. But champs targeting family members might bring the quest to a fail any time and out of nothing. DDO roulette with a good chance of failure.
Lv. 5: A Small Problem . Brawnpits has literally tons of HP. But the wrong turn on the orange named and even he might succumb and just get smacked down into ash in a few seconds by these fire elementals. EE adds to the fun with champ doogies in the end fight. Usually the fire eles are CCable first. Thank god! Happens quite rarely that heath spirits are spawning as champs. Rarely they do massive damage. Even more rarely they target Brawnpits. if it happens its most annoying. Brawnpits might spawn a champ too, by the way.
Lv. 8: The Faithful Departed - needless to point out that orange named are often champs. That quest just got more random with the introduction of champs. You might get lucky and see Faithfuls with tons of hit points. Easy walk in the park. Or you just might see the scorrows nearby handing tons of damage and are oneshooting the faithful as you come nearby. DDO roulette at its worst.
Lv. 8: The Rescue - Threnal II, the prospector, already problematic quest, utter failure on the wrong champs getting near the prospector. At last there can be done something by keeping the prospector out of harms way as long as possible.
At that stage a honorable mention goes to Coyle. Since the quest cannot be failed anymore due to Coyle getting killed, you just loose the extra XP from the optional on a regular base. But Coyle on champ status now gives you a real shoot at the optional easily - nothing can kill that guy then... Since the quest meanwhile is no-fail (except for a wipe)...
Lv. 11: Tomb of the Tormented - needless to say more here. There are already threads with multiple pages complaining that quests and the champ worgs and champ carcass eaters...

To all and everybody: Just feel free to add to that list.

The problem with your "very rarely" is it's not guaranteed failure at all. It's only a potential failure if the party or soloer can't handle the champs that do spawn quickly in the case of problematic ones. In the case of parties, I highly doubt they would fail ever, regardless of most unfortunate champ randomisation.

I've yet to see a single problematic champ or champs that couldn't be handled through fast thinking, or preparatory measures (barb hirelings) on quest levels 1-4. Odds are, if what monster champs people fear are so prevalent, I should've been one-shotted by now, at least one time. Not even close, and mind, I'm playing a pajamas wearer mostly naked gear-wise until level 5. I've still only managed to log one quest across all level 1-4 quests in which any death occured (and it was due to champs, somewhat) and that was totally my fault going into HE kobold assault with nothing more than starter light heal potion stacks and playing loose and sloppy. But, I didn't really concern myself, as the shrine is right there.

[Kawai]

Kobie Shamans (& ditto w/Light casting Clerics in RwtD) rarely (if ever) use their deadly ranged attacks if u rush into their Melee Range.
Zig-Zag ta get there as well, they usually miss.

no different really, these champs, when back in day, b4 ShipBuffs were norm, Shamans could easily 1/2 shot anyone.

[Qhualor]

It´s not the point that any good vet player can handle the typical champs - we can, no doubt. The point is that there are champs that cannot be handled in time to prevent quest failure. Or that make quests, that are already tormenting, even more annoying up until these quests cannot be done or completed by certain builds or even by most builds except for a certain few.

Quests that do pose problems under the wrong circumstances:
Lv. 1: Redemption - Heyton is oneshot by spawning champs doing massive damage. Champs do this before they can be CCed. Happens rarely but happens.
Lv. 1: Cannith Crystal - mobs are invis until they hit the crystall. Under certain conditions a champ may spawn that can oneshoot the crystall before the champ might be CCed or aggroed. Happens rarely.
Lv. 2: Protect Baudry´s Interests - shaman champs cannot be targeted (bug) and by phasing in and out cannot be CCed on time to prevent them from oneshooting the crate. Happens rarely.
Lv. 4: The Bookbinder Rescue - already a very challenging quest on elite on anything else but a competent trapper, this quest even got more unforgiving. Having a competent trapper that can unlock doors goes miles in playability. But champs targeting family members might bring the quest to a fail any time and out of nothing. DDO roulette with a good chance of failure.
Lv. 5: A Small Problem . Brawnpits has literally tons of HP. But the wrong turn on the orange named and even he might succumb and just get smacked down into ash in a few seconds by these fire elementals. EE adds to the fun with champ doogies in the end fight. Usually the fire eles are CCable first. Thank god! Happens quite rarely that heath spirits are spawning as champs. Rarely they do massive damage. Even more rarely they target Brawnpits. if it happens its most annoying. Brawnpits might spawn a champ too, by the way.
Lv. 8: The Faithful Departed - needless to point out that orange named are often champs. That quest just got more random with the introduction of champs. You might get lucky and see Faithfuls with tons of hit points. Easy walk in the park. Or you just might see the scorrows nearby handing tons of damage and are oneshooting the faithful as you come nearby. DDO roulette at its worst.
Lv. 8: The Rescue - Threnal II, the prospector, already problematic quest, utter failure on the wrong champs getting near the prospector. At last there can be done something by keeping the prospector out of harms way as long as possible.
At that stage a honorable mention goes to Coyle. Since the quest cannot be failed anymore due to Coyle getting killed, you just loose the extra XP from the optional on a regular base. But Coyle on champ status now gives you a real shoot at the optional easily - nothing can kill that guy then... Since the quest meanwhile is no-fail (except for a wipe)...
Lv. 11: Tomb of the Tormented - needless to say more here. There are already threads with multiple pages complaining that quests and the champ worgs and champ carcass eaters...

To all and everybody: Just feel free to add to that list.

Protection quests have already been beaten into the ground that the NPCs need an upgrade now with Champions. The devs have even commented on it and I don't see any "pro-Champion" denying they need an upgrade. At this point we are just waiting on the devs to actually make these proper changes.

After the NPCs and hires get their boost, will we go back to using the "new player" argument or "it took an extra 5 swings to kill this Champion and had to throw a heal on myself. I didn't get a reward" argument or "I had to pause every so often to deal with a tougher than trash mob Champion" argument or "I was forced to resort to alternative tactics to beat down a Champion" argument?

[Chai]

Chai, Bartharok, just get down from your epic TR train Olymp into the plains of normalness! We are talking about a stinking lv. one quest, not Temple of the Deathwyrm on EE!!!

OP complained about lowest 1st lv. quests, not about EE. Please read the thread, or at least the 1st post.

It´s not the point that any good vet player can handle the typical champs - we can, no doubt. The point is that there are champs that cannot be handled in time to prevent quest failure. Or that make quests, that are already tormenting, even more annoying up until these quests cannot be done or completed by certain builds or even by most builds except for a certain few.

Quests that do pose problems under the wrong circumstances:
Lv. 1: Redemption - Heyton is oneshot by spawning champs doing massive damage. Champs do this before they can be CCed. Happens rarely but happens.
Lv. 1: Cannith Crystal - mobs are invis until they hit the crystall. Under certain conditions a champ may spawn that can oneshoot the crystall before the champ might be CCed or aggroed. Happens rarely.
Lv. 2: Protect Baudry´s Interests - shaman champs cannot be targeted (bug) and by phasing in and out cannot be CCed on time to prevent them from oneshooting the crate. Happens rarely.
Lv. 4: The Bookbinder Rescue - already a very challenging quest on elite on anything else but a competent trapper, this quest even got more unforgiving. Having a competent trapper that can unlock doors goes miles in playability. But champs targeting family members might bring the quest to a fail any time and out of nothing. DDO roulette with a good chance of failure.
Lv. 5: A Small Problem . Brawnpits has literally tons of HP. But the wrong turn on the orange named and even he might succumb and just get smacked down into ash in a few seconds by these fire elementals. EE adds to the fun with champ doogies in the end fight. Usually the fire eles are CCable first. Thank god! Happens quite rarely that heath spirits are spawning as champs. Rarely they do massive damage. Even more rarely they target Brawnpits. if it happens its most annoying. Brawnpits might spawn a champ too, by the way.
Lv. 8: The Faithful Departed - needless to point out that orange named are often champs. That quest just got more random with the introduction of champs. You might get lucky and see Faithfuls with tons of hit points. Easy walk in the park. Or you just might see the scorrows nearby handing tons of damage and are oneshooting the faithful as you come nearby. DDO roulette at its worst.
Lv. 8: The Rescue - Threnal II, the prospector, already problematic quest, utter failure on the wrong champs getting near the prospector. At last there can be done something by keeping the prospector out of harms way as long as possible.
At that stage a honorable mention goes to Coyle. Since the quest cannot be failed anymore due to Coyle getting killed, you just loose the extra XP from the optional on a regular base. But Coyle on champ status now gives you a real shoot at the optional easily - nothing can kill that guy then... Since the quest meanwhile is no-fail (except for a wipe)...
Lv. 11: Tomb of the Tormented - needless to say more here. There are already threads with multiple pages complaining that quests and the champ worgs and champ carcass eaters...

To all and everybody: Just feel free to add to that list.

Are we, or are we not, talking about one specific level one quest? Youre in here now commenting about other quests which are higher level, as well as commenting about EE, after calling others out for not paying attention to the OP which has nothing to do with EE....

So.....Which is it? Are we discussing ONLY the cannith crystal, or the impact of champions on the entire game?

[Bargol]

Chai I think you're being deliberately obtuse. You know what the poster is getting at - its not the chance of failure that's the problem. It's the chance of arbitrary failure which no amount of skill could avoid*, and which you can't learn anything from, because it's randomly generated.


*allegedly. I have yet to encounter one of these super champs everyone goes on about, though I've been killed by plenty of champs

Sorry skill and preparation can assure you avoid being killed or having problems with ANY champs. The only time I have ever seen a champ even somewhat challenging is in EE what goes up. I was intentionally running it on a pure monk PDK who was wearing the free PDK level 15 gear (except for wraps) to make a point to guild members.

Any decently geared skilled veteran player should have zero difficulty with champs. If you are having trouble then maybe you aren't as uber as you thought you were. In this case there is normal or hard for you.

[bartharok]

It´s not failure that is galling many players, it´s the fact that it is impossible to do something against that kind of failure. If I go into The Pit on level and do not care for ample damage mittigation, evasion, look up the floor plans, keep ready the puzzle solvers., etc., I am failing. I knwo the quest, I prepare, I do my best, and from time to time I am just not careful enough or concentrated enough and I fail. Because the quest is hard to do. That is fully OK. After all it is my fault when I fail - because I made a mistake in a quest that does not allow mistakes. But failing because I just got unlucky with a spawned champion that just happened to oneshot my escort NPC - now, this is just plain bad game design.

If I go into Terminal Delirium on Heroic Elite with any toon on level (lv. 19) w/o EDs and the like, I know what I do. The more I celebrate getting thru. But doing Redemption (a lv. 1 quest) on Heroic Elite and just getting bad luck - and that is the end fight this is just plain not right.

I always have to take into account the possibility of fail on elite quests, heroic and epic. Most quests simply do not allow for many mistakes. but failing a quest even if I do everything right just because there is a champ doing epic damage to a NPC... Well, there is failure and failure. I fail EE - fine, have done so and will do again - that´s the thing with running EE. But failing a lv. 1 tutorial quest because of sheer bad luck - should not happen, never ever.

Chai, Bartharok, just get down from your epic TR train Olymp into the plains of normalness! We are talking about a stinking lv. one quest, not Temple of the Deathwyrm on EE!!!

When i heard about the problems people had with getting oneshotted in levelappropriate content, i made a heap of new toon on servers i dont usually play on. And didnt get oneshotted by anything.

The crystal can be destroyed by NON-champ critters, if you let them get to it. Solution: i work hard at not letting anything get to it. The solution is NOT making it unbreakable. If i fail, i sigh and do it again. I dont come to the forums proclaiming a holy crusade against anything that lowers my chances at success.

My epic TR train consists of ONE toon that did ONE ETR, because i wanted to see if it was worth the bother. Came to the conclusion that it wasnt, because i prefer using my brain while playing.

[phillymiket]

The crystal can be destroyed by NON-champ critters, if you let them get to it. Solution: i work hard at not letting anything get to it. The solution is NOT making it unbreakable.

I agree.

If you bump the crystal HP then when you don't have a champ it becomes auto-win, whereas, as you point out, this quest always had a chance of fail, even before Champions.

Same with hires, same with NCP's.

It seems to me that the work needed to make Champions a smooth, bug-free feature couldn't be that much more than simply adjusting the base line of all mobs on E and H - the thing that should have been done in the first place. Furthermore, adjustments for Champions breaks the quests when you get lucky and don't have Champions.