Vip - rip

[FranOhmsford]

They didn't do a system wide change. Champions were implemented in 2 of the 4 difficulties.

Deliberately misleading point above!

I said nothing about Quest difficulty levels whatsoever - My complaints have absolutely NOTHING to do with Hard or Elite!

Champions were implemented in every quest in the game no matter what that meant to the quest in question {Tomb of the Tormented and Champions rats/worgs for example!}

This is what Vint is saying, in context to your analogy. If the guy in your example loves the pit, but complains about spies to the point where spies gets changed and people who used to like spies no longer do, then he has no right to be peeved when people complain about the pit and it gets changed into something he no longer likes. This is the direct contradiction in logic people are pointing out regarding demanding changes which essentially affect entire playstyles (usually not the playstyle of the people making the demands).

Those two quests were chosen because they require the exact same playstyle!

A Nerf to one would be by definition a Nerf to the other!

However - My personal issue with The Pit being the insane Air-Jet room means that a single change to that room would be neither a Nerf to The Pit OR affect Spies in any way!
In my example - Let's say the guy who hates Spies does so because of the fire elementals/air elementals floating on thin air away from the pipes and basically requiring either a Ranged character or a Caster to take down!
Fixing those Elementals so they STAY on the Pipes would not be a Nerf to Spies OR affect The Pit in any way!


Making suggestions is NOT asking for Nerfs!


Equating every complaint whether legitimate or not to someone asking for Nerfs is very wrong!

[Bargol]

Players will comment on how they should nerf a playstyle they do not like, but then they cry when their own playstyle takes a hit. These are not made up facts or rumors. There are numerous threads that go back to 2006 about players demanding nerfs to things that do not even affect them, but they sure love to ruin the fun of others.

One of the best points made in this whole thread.

[Vellrad]

If you meant to ask "if luck shouldn't decide if you succeed or fail a quest, should dice rolls be removed?"

Then no, because bad rolls don't decide if I succeed or fail a quest.
I roll 1s all the time, getting held, tripped, stunned, spells being saved against, misses, those don't cause me to fail quests - they might be annoying at times, especially when I roll a few 1s in a row, but that's it.

If you roll 1 once or twice, your quest won't fail, but if you will keep rolling bad, you will fail, beign unable to hit mob or dealing low damage etc.

One unlucky roll spawning 1 champion won't fail your quest, you'd need as much luck to get a champ as to get pwned by series of critical hits, and if someone can't kill one champ they deserve to fail.

[Chai]

Deliberately misleading point above!

I said nothing about Quest difficulty levels whatsoever - My complaints have absolutely NOTHING to do with Hard or Elite!

Champions were implemented in every quest in the game no matter what that meant to the quest in question {Tomb of the Tormented and Champions rats/worgs for example!}

Its not misleading whatsoever. Its factual information. Champions are implemented in 2 of the 4 difficulties available. Saying they are in every quest is misleading. Play the quest on normal. Are they there? Nope.

Your complaints do have to do with hard and elite because those are the two difficulties champions are implemented in. You claimed they implemented a system wide change, which is false, because every difficulty setting was not changed. People can play normal and casual without champions.

Those two quests were chosen because they require the exact same playstyle!

A Nerf to one would be by definition a Nerf to the other!

However - My personal issue with The Pit being the insane Air-Jet room means that a single change to that room would be neither a Nerf to The Pit OR affect Spies in any way!
In my example - Let's say the guy who hates Spies does so because of the fire elementals/air elementals floating on thin air away from the pipes and basically requiring either a Ranged character or a Caster to take down!
Fixing those Elementals so they STAY on the Pipes would not be a Nerf to Spies OR affect The Pit in any way!


Making suggestions is NOT asking for Nerfs!


Equating every complaint whether legitimate or not to someone asking for Nerfs is very wrong!

Those two quests do not require the same play style. One can zerg the pit and one can run it slowly and meticulously. Same with spies. Changing one quest would not change the other, as neither require the same play style choices to complete.

My point still stands. If the guy who likes the pit, regardless of reason, complained up a storm about spies, and that feedback resulted in a change in spies so that those who used to like it no longer like it, then they have no right to be mad when others complain about the pit, which results in a change which makes the person who originally liked it no longer like that quest. What we see is people are satisfied with changes to the game which benefit their chosen play style, and have no regard for others who were negatively affected, until they are the one negatively affected. Then they turn around and expect that regard, which they were not willing to afford others when the tables were turned.

[slarden]

Are you seriously telling us no one has been complaining about zerging, invis running, nerfing shiradi, masters blitz, paladins, bards, OP casters, game is too easy, etc.... seriously?

Perhaps its done by "casuals" or perhaps its done by vets in the name of "casuals" in order to push their own agenda. Ive seen many iterations of vets throwing newbies and casuals under the bus when complaining about a particular change they dont like due to not wanting to put their own premise on the line, because they clearly understand it would undermine and contradict all claims of being uber, and refute claims of not needing to learn to play better, doing it wrong, etc.

There have also been quite a few threads in the past with suggestions regarding randomizing quests, traps, encounters etc, to make the game less predictable, but the minute they put these champions in, the waffling began in spades.

i think many times the same people claim that casuals argued for this and casuals argued for that but it's complete mythology. Just look at the enhancement pass feedback on the Lamannia forum if you want an example of who was actually asking for multi-class easy buttons - and got it I should add. It wasn't casual players.

Some of us run with a diverse set of players. I group with some of the most elite players on Sarlona and I group with people that don't like to run above EH.

Some of you folks have an all-or-nothing view of champions - it either needs to stay exactly the way it was when introduced or they need to go. Some of us take a different approach and would like to see refinement rather than those extreme non-budging positions.

[Chai]

i think many times the same people claim that casuals argued for this and casuals argued for that but it's complete mythology. Just look at the enhancement pass feedback on the Lamannia forum if you want an example of who was actually asking for multi-class easy buttons - and got it I should add. It wasn't casual players.

Some of us run with a diverse set of players. I group with some of the most elite players on Sarlona and I group with people that don't like to run above EH.

Some of you folks have an all-or-nothing view of champions - it either needs to stay exactly the way it was when introduced or they need to go. Some of us take a different approach and would like to see refinement rather than those extreme non-budging positions.

Ive posted several times that they can continue to tweak them until the most people are satisfied, but they should keep them.

I likely run with the most diverse group of players. Raid and TR guild on one server, permadeath guild on another. Several static groups in between. Im in two different raid teaching channels. Ive seen feedback on this in game provided by all sides, and the single biggest crowd who wants champions removed are those who want to keep their heroic elite XP zerg with no failure chance. They throw casuals under the bus and say it affects them the most in order to not have to reveal and support their own premise, that their XP/min just took a hit.

That being said, if you are saying there has never been a casual player who complained about zerging or invis running you are mistaken. Attempting to label people with differing views as extremists is ironic, when claiming no casual player has ever complained about a power gamers play style. That's a pretty extreme claim, and an incorrect one at that.

[slarden]

Ive posted several times that they can continue to tweak them until the most people are satisfied, but they should keep them.

I likely run with the most diverse group of players. Raid and TR guild on one server, permadeath guild on another. Several static groups in between. Im in two different raid teaching channels. Ive seen feedback on this in game provided by all sides, and the single biggest crowd who wants champions removed are those who want to keep their heroic elite XP zerg with no failure chance. They throw casuals under the bus and say it affects them the most in order to not have to reveal and support their own premise.

That being said, if you are saying there has never been a casual player who complained about zerging or invis running you are mistaken.

I am not saying that, but I am saying almost all the complaining on the forums comes from the group of people that consider themselves power gamers. I invis zerg all the time - even with champions. We just have to keep the party size small to do it and avoid alert.

[Chai]

I am not saying that, but I am saying almost all the complaining on the forums comes from the group of people that consider themselves power gamers. I invis zerg all the time - even with champions. We just have to keep the party size small to do it and avoid alert.

Another extreme claim. And also incorrect.

Ill give you a hint. Most of the folks you think are power gamers, are not. Wanting the game to provide some level of difficulty on the highest difficulty settings is not a powergamer request. Powergamers strive to attain their goals as quickly as possible. Those wanting the challenge are those willing to use tactics like shield walling doorways and pulling mobs back - which is not the powergamer way in DDO. The powergamers playstyle hasn't changed in epics, because zerging epic normal is still the quickest route to XP, and loot isn't any different on NHE any more.

[myliftkk_v2]

There have also been quite a few threads in the past with suggestions regarding randomizing quests, traps, encounters etc, to make the game less predictable, but the minute they put these champions in, the waffling began in spades.

I wholly support Champions as a randomisation (in line with my previous posts favoring randomisation techniques they should implement). Personally I'm glad they finally started down the path of removing the arbitrary structural predictability from the game.

I'd love for champs to drop more goodies on death, but I'll admit they've already improved my experience from a "walk in the park" on everything heroic (which was totally stale), to actually having to look at the makeup of the mobs and champs I'm pulling before deciding how far to zerg and think about how attack a particular group when I notice a problematic champ has spawned.

[Vint]

You're still not getting it.

You are way off here Fran. I could care less if they got rid of champions right now. My post refers to the arm chair quarterbacks who talk out both sides of their neck.

Don’t take my word for it; go look. There are people who were demanding nerfs to divine grace because it was an easy buttons for the “elitist scum”. (This is what some people actually posted and many other shared the same sentiment that this need nerfed because they did not like the zerger playstyle).

These same exact people then chimed in on one of the countless anti champion threads demanding that Turbine give them an “easy button” and getting rid of the champions because they kept getting killed by the champions.

Once again I am not talking about John Q. every day. I am talking about many forum goers (there are many if you look at the threads) who cry nerf simply because they do not like the playstyle. Then when they get taken out of their comfort zone (champions added) they have a heart attack.

All this crying (by forum goers) is the same thing as what a five year old does. They do not like what others do (even though it does not affect them) so they go crying. This is a problem that has happened for years and I find it laughable that these people are supposed adults.

[Keladon]

If you roll 1 once or twice, your quest won't fail, but if you will keep rolling bad, you will fail, beign unable to hit mob or dealing low damage etc.

One unlucky roll spawning 1 champion won't fail your quest, you'd need as much luck to get a champ as to get pwned by series of critical hits, and if someone can't kill one champ they deserve to fail.

1 shot.

And I already said this, bad rolls don't cause me to fail quests.
I often get earthgrabbed multiple times in a row, just rolling 1's, I often get spells that are resisted or evaded, I've even had strings of misses, those have never caused me to fail a quest.
Rolling 1's is something they probably like to keep because it reminds players of D&D and I honestly don't care, it can be annoying but it's not deadly.
I've had some close calls because of bad rolls and it's actually something that adds more excitement than champions for me.

Ive seen feedback on this in game provided by all sides, and the single biggest crowd who wants champions removed are those who want to keep their heroic elite XP zerg with no failure chance. They throw casuals under the bus and say it affects them the most in order to not have to reveal and support their own premise, that their XP/min just took a hit.

Just going going to say I'm not part of the xp/min group. I couldn't care less about a "heroic elite XP zerg", I don't like them because of random quest failures.
I take quests slowly, I smash crates, look for optionals, explore.. and the last thing I want is to die in 2 seconds from a bad champion buff combination.
Yes, I do play solo often. Because the majority of the groups I end up in or players I get in my group (even after stating NO ZERGING), still zerg.
They can keep them, if they fix them. Last thing I want is for the devs to continue building on a flawed feature.
Disable some mobs from spawning as champions (maze warg..), disable some combinations or tone down the damage, no more 10x hp champions, no more champion decorations (background 'things' with a crown on them), do something about escort quests, buff hirelings to compensate, etc..
I don't mind if a champion puts up a fight or is a challenge, but I do mind if I go from full hp to dead in 1 hit. (For Qhualor: This doesn't happen all the time!)


By the way, not directed at you and sorry for going off-topic, but did divine grace get nerfed? I know there was some talk about it but I don't know if it actually happened.
I see people complaining that others complained about it.. but did anything about divine grace change?

[AbyssalMage]

I wholly support Champions as a randomisation (in line with my previous posts favoring randomisation techniques they should implement). Personally I'm glad they finally started down the path of removing the arbitrary structural predictability from the game.

I'd love for champs to drop more goodies on death, but I'll admit they've already improved my experience from a "walk in the park" on everything heroic (which was totally stale), to actually having to look at the makeup of the mobs and champs I'm pulling before deciding how far to zerg and think about how attack a particular group when I notice a problematic champ has spawned.

I hate champs but that is because there is a ton of risk with no reward. That being said, now that they no longer "one shot" me I am slightly less grumpy. Still get grumpy when I get a bad instance and not looking forward to protect missions since their introduction at all.

The funny thing is they only changed my play style on my non-AoE characters. Oh, and now I make my miss chance/PRR as high as possible where before I geared/played more casually.

[FranOhmsford]

You are way off here Fran. I could care less if they got rid of champions right now. My post refers to the arm chair quarterbacks who talk out both sides of their neck.

Wanting one thing to be dialled back while disliking another thing being dialed back DOES NOT make anyone a hypocrite as you seem to be implying!

Whether you personally like that thing, hate it or are just meh!
I don't like The Pit
I like Spies
I'm meh about Faithful Departed

Yet I can make suggestions for each of the above that would make them better in my view!

Don’t take my word for it; go look. There are people who were demanding nerfs to divine grace because it was an easy buttons for the “elitist scum”. (This is what some people actually posted and many other shared the same sentiment that this need nerfed because they did not like the zerger playstyle).

Divine Grace may have been fine when cap was 10 {I wasn't here then} but for the past 2 years+ it has become more and more blatantly OP as Cha scores have gone through the roof!

The option the Devs chose was in my view nowhere near enough!

Divine Grace like Evasion has been one of the major contributors to the OPness of Splashing and needed a Nerf {if that's the term you want to use!}.

These same exact people then chimed in on one of the countless anti champion threads demanding that Turbine give them an “easy button” and getting rid of the champions because they kept getting killed by the champions.

Not once have I asked for Champions to be removed totally!

I've asked for the spawn rates to be dialled back to reasonable numbers
I've asked for the Devs to be sensible about which mobs can gain Champion status {Champion Oozes for example are simply ludicrous!}.
and
I've agreed with certain other posters that Champions should be confined to the higher levels {for me that means Lvl 10+}.

I have NOT asked for them to be removed from the game!

Once again I am not talking about John Q. every day. I am talking about many forum goers (there are many if you look at the threads) who cry nerf simply because they do not like the playstyle. Then when they get taken out of their comfort zone (champions added) they have a heart attack.

This has nothing to do with play style though!

This has nothing to do with Divine Grace being nerfed either!

You'd have a point IF someone like me who'd stated that DG needed to be dialled back was now complaining about Evasion being nerfed!

BUT

You simply cannot compare the changes to one ability - which mainly affected players who abused that ability in the first place - to changes that affect EVERY SINGLE QUEST!

Its not misleading whatsoever. Its factual information. Champions are implemented in 2 of the 4 difficulties available. Saying they are in every quest is misleading. Play the quest on normal. Are they there? Nope.

You're blatantly ignoring the fact that I'm talking about Quests not difficulty levels!

Your complaints do have to do with hard and elite because those are the two difficulties champions are implemented in. You claimed they implemented a system wide change, which is false, because every difficulty setting was not changed. People can play normal and casual without champions.

My complaints have absolutely NOTHING to do with Hard and Elite because I am not talking about difficulty but about quests!

EVERY SINGLE QUEST IN THE GAME has been changed without any thought going into what that change would do to a SPECIFIC QUEST!

I don't care about whether Tomb of the Tormented does or does not have Champions on Normal, Hard or Elite - I DO CARE that the mobs in the maze can become Champions!

Give me Champion Wights and Zombies in there fine BUT NOT the mobs I can only reach through one spell!

Those two quests do not require the same play style. One can zerg the pit and one can run it slowly and meticulously. Same with spies. Changing one quest would not change the other, as neither require the same play style choices to complete.

Lol - You know that that's not what I was saying!

Spies and The Pit are both Mario Quests!
Gladewatch Outpost and Kobold Assault are both Assault Quests!
Hold for Reinforcements and Gladewatch Outpost are both Assault AND Protect the NPC Quests!

Spies and The Pit both require a certain Playstyle - Whether you're Zerging them OR going slow you CANNOT run them without Mario-ing! {And please don't state you can Pike!}

My point still stands. If the guy who likes the pit, regardless of reason, complained up a storm about spies, and that feedback resulted in a change in spies so that those who used to like it no longer like it, then they have no right to be mad when others complain about the pit, which results in a change which makes the person who originally liked it no longer like that quest. What we see is people are satisfied with changes to the game which benefit their chosen play style, and have no regard for others who were negatively affected, until they are the one negatively affected. Then they turn around and expect that regard, which they were not willing to afford others when the tables were turned.

Again - You're assuming that these two things are the same!

I used Spies and The Pit as an example - Taking two quests with similar styles and showing HOW one person's problem with one of them did not mean that person was a bad or crying!

You're now trying to use that example to call that hypothetical person a hypocrite!

However:

Wanting Champions removed {something I've never asked for btw!} has absolutely nothing to do with liking or disliking anything else in this game!

The closest thing to Champions that I can think of is the lazy hireling buff of 18 months or so ago when the Devs simply chose to give every cleric hire the same d@rn mace and a random armour kit!
They have yet again chosen to take the Lazy route with Champions!

[Chai]

This has nothing to do with play style though!

You are referring to quest objectives, not play style.

Play style in the context of MMOs is what I am referring to. This is what has to do with quest difficulty setting, and who has been arguing for what, in terms of how the game population breaks down demographically.

Again - You're assuming that these two things are the same!

No, I am not making any such assumption. I even broke them down into SEPARATE ENTITIES (proving I did not assume they were the same at all) to outline how hypocritical one would be to demand a change in one said entity, disregarding those who liked the way it was before the change, only to get mad at those who support a change in the other entity, which is something they currently like as it is.

Its the old cliché of what goes around comes around.

[Vint]

This has nothing to do with play style though!

This has nothing to do with Divine Grace being nerfed either!

I am not making divine grace or champions the point. As it is people have been splashing paly/rogue for 9 years now (and I am one of them) and I am not even complaining or having a hissy because of the change.

What I will complain about is when forum goers (NOT NECESSARILY YOU) come and complain about nerfing “easy buttons” such as divine grace or many other things we have seen over the years, and then they turn around and have a hissy when they cannot have an easy button such as champions removed.

(I am not preaching at you personally) But there are many people who want to do away with certain “easy buttons” and then they turn around and demand easy buttons for what is important to them. This has nothing to do with making the game easier for new people or limiting content to certain people.

Most importantly, most of the threads concerning divine grace (or other nerfs) we saw people posting responses that they wanted the nerfs because they did not like the playstyle of the “elitist jerk ahole zergers”. Regardless if the nerfs were OP and it did not matter if they never played with these toons, they would complain because they hated the playstyle of the zergers and wanted nerfs just to take out their anger on the “mean people that would kick them from parties”.

These are the people I am referring to. I don’t care what they do with divine grace. I don’t care what they do with champions. What I do care about is the people that cry for nerfs out of spite and then turn around and demand easy buttons because they cannot stay alive in quests.

[Angelic-council]

I play DDO normally and I don't see any problems at all. I never seen people complain so much on a game forum that we have today in DDO. There is no point in being VIP? even tho, you get 500 TP - free access - speed boost - exp bonus - free gold dice and more? Champions are way too hard? Even tho, people running EEs today just fine. If EE is too hard for someone and they complaining about champs. Why people even run EE in the first place.

[Fallout_Zero]

I play DDO normally and I don't see any problems at all. I never seen people complain so much on a game forum that we have today in DDO. There is no point in being VIP? even tho, you get 500 TP - free access - speed boost - exp bonus - free gold dice and more? Champions are way too hard? Even tho, people running EEs today just fine. If EE is too hard for someone and they complaining about champs. Why people even run EE in the first place.

Yeah I'm surprise this went this many pages on something so minor.
I think champions on Kortos is a great idea. Introduction that elite is not the joke it once was, although after the Nerf they are still easy.

I want to run elite on a first life undergeared toon, got butt kicked then goes to forum to complain.
There are other difficulty levels people..

[myliftkk_v2]

I hate champs but that is because there is a ton of risk with no reward. That being said, now that they no longer "one shot" me I am slightly less grumpy. Still get grumpy when I get a bad instance and not looking forward to protect missions since their introduction at all.

The funny thing is they only changed my play style on my non-AoE characters. Oh, and now I make my miss chance/PRR as high as possible where before I geared/played more casually.

The only risk is you have is now you need to think about how to play the game in the instance provided. The fact that you didn't actually have to think prior to that was a endemic flaw in design of the software, not a reward for meta-gaming. Turbine is well within their rights to say, this is the way gaming should be, take it or leave it. Ultimately, all MMO style games will move to this model in the future and it will be baked in that randomisation is the only way to not have your content sunset in a week. Consider this the true future of instance gaming.

Would I like randomized goodie drops too? Sure, but also because that is an improvement over static loot drop locations, not because I feel like I need a new reward because they did something that should have been done ages ago.

[Nestroy]

If you roll 1 once or twice, your quest won't fail, but if you will keep rolling bad, you will fail, beign unable to hit mob or dealing low damage etc.

One unlucky roll spawning 1 champion won't fail your quest, you'd need as much luck to get a champ as to get pwned by series of critical hits, and if someone can't kill one champ they deserve to fail.

The problem with champs in the current form is exactly that one single unlucky roll (spawning the one single champ from hell) can exactly make you fail lowest level quests. No save, no hit points, no anything the player can do. The chance for this to happen might be remote, but it may happen, it happened and it will happen again as long as there is any chance the champs can spawn that much out of balance as they can at the moment. Especially any escort quest or guard qest (e.g. Redemption, Cannith Crystall) are prone to exactly that kind of failure. On the other side you just might get lucky and see Heyton or Coyle spawning with a crown and having insane hit points as well. Alas, I have not seen the cannith crystall spawn with a crown so far.

That champs of hell are what the OP is complaining about and thats what some here try to communicate to the community. Random failure and nothing even the best player woth the best toon can do against it.

[Nestroy]

I play DDO normally and I don't see any problems at all. I never seen people complain so much on a game forum that we have today in DDO. There is no point in being VIP? even tho, you get 500 TP - free access - speed boost - exp bonus - free gold dice and more? Champions are way too hard? Even tho, people running EEs today just fine. If EE is too hard for someone and they complaining about champs. Why people even run EE in the first place.

OP complained about lowest 1st lv. quests, not about EE. Please read the thread, or at least the 1st post.