Vip - rip

[slarden]

There are two sides to this story. Let's look at both.

A power gamer has a great build and can solo elite just fine. One day Turbine "changes things" and now he is no longer able to solo elite. He comes here to complain and is told...

1. Run hard or normal.
2. Group up with people.
3. Quit the game crybaby.

Now we look at the casual guy who can solo elite and Turbine "changes things" and now he is unable to solo elite. He is also met with the same answers that the power gamer was.


The only difference in the stories is that in one instance Turbine nerfed a build and in the other instance is that Turbine introduced champions.

I won't go on, but this is almost poetic justice for those that demanded nerfs to the ubers who had the good build. Maybe I would be more sympathetic to the casuals of they had not gone out of their way asking Turbine to "change things" for zergers.

Can you provide links of where casuals asked for this?

[Vint]

Actually, Heroic Elite is far from impossible to solo. I did it with a lv. 1 Barb and a lv. 1 Sorc. But...

I would agree but with all the posts and threads complaining you may think otherwise.

[Chai]

Can you provide links of where casuals asked for this?

One could, but bringing past disagreements into a new thread is against forum moderation policy. There is a long enough history of people posting "creative" ways of dealing with invis running and zerging. So far Im checking out threads that go as far back as 2008.

[Keladon]

2.) Even the best build and the best player just can get unlucky and meet the one champion from hell that destroys the Cannith Crystall or Heyton with one single shot before you may be able to draw aggro or anything - random quest failure.

And this is exactly what bothers me.
I'm sure it's personal, because some people like these random quest failures, but I just don't see how that is fun, challenging or adds difficulty.
Just because I have to repeat a quest because I got unlucky, doesn't mean the game actually got more difficult, it means it got more random.

Being able to complete a quest should depend on me, my skills, my gear, my past lives, not just plain dumb luck.

"You might have to try that quest a few times because sometimes the crystal just gets 1shotted".. really? That just doesn't feel right.

But again, this is just my opinion. (looks like I'm going to have to add this to my sig.)

One could, but bringing past disagreements into a new thread is against forum moderation policy. There is a long enough history of people posting "creative" ways of dealing with invis running and zerging. So far Im checking out threads that go as far back as 2008.

That's odd, I remember vets asking for ways to stop that, not casual players.
Is it really casual and new players that do most of the (invisi)zerging?

[Vint]

Can you provide links of where casuals asked for this?

You must be joking. Go look at the official discussion page and you will see people complaining that divine grace needs to be nerfed, but then they have a stroke when champions were released.

I won't debate you on this as the threads speak for themselves. If you pay attention you will see many of the same people love to demand nerfs to the übers because they hate the playstyle, and then they show up in threads like this saying the game is to hard. They just want to complain because they hate the other persons play style.

[bartharok]

You must be joking. Go look at the official discussion page and you will see people complaining that divine grace needs to be nerfed, but then they have a stroke when champions were released.

I won't debate you on this as the threads speak for themselves. If you pay attention you will see many of the same people love to demand nerfs to the übers because they hate the playstyle, and then they show up in threads like this saying the game is to hard. They just want to complain because they hate the other persons play style.

They dont hate the playstyle as such, methinks. More like they want it to be as easy for them, which is not quite the same thing.

[Nestroy]

I would agree but with all the posts and threads complaining you may think otherwise.

You see, I might just happen to differenciate my oppinion. While doing champs is perfectly possible if you know the game, know the metagaming layer and can prepare, champs do add to total completion time, do not give anything in return and add to frustration levels of fringe hard and elite players. Over all the champs are a good idea (personal oppinion) done bad (personal oppinion too) and I try to give possible solutions that (I think) would solve the problem.

Anyways, most players complaining still care for the game. This basically is good. The devs reachted immediately upon the most dire complaints and toned down champs both in quantity and power on the short track. We now have to fund a solution that satisfies most players while not abandon a good concept that many others regard as great. Luckily the official discussion thread is full of good stuff and even gets read by the devs.

[slarden]

You must be joking. Go look at the official discussion page and you will see people complaining that divine grace needs to be nerfed, but then they have a stroke when champions were released.

I won't debate you on this as the threads speak for themselves. If you pay attention you will see many of the same people love to demand nerfs to the übers because they hate the playstyle, and then they show up in threads like this saying the game is to hard. They just want to complain because they hate the other persons play style.

I don't think these people are "casuals".

I agree there is far too much lobbying to hurt other people's playstyle, but it's not casual players that are doing this. The only place you see casuals commenting are on threads like champions where a new mechanic is introduced that they are having trouble with. Too many comments are attributed to"casuals" that are made by vets.

[slarden]

One could, but bringing past disagreements into a new thread is against forum moderation policy. There is a long enough history of people posting "creative" ways of dealing with invis running and zerging. So far Im checking out threads that go as far back as 2008.

Providing links is not a violation. Of course, it's a convenient excuse since these claims of non-stop complaining and lobbying by casuals is pure fiction.

[Vint]

I don't think these people are "casuals".

I agree there is far too much lobbying to hurt other people's playstyle, but it's not casual players that are doing this. The only place you see casuals commenting are on threads like champions where a new mechanic is introduced that they are having trouble with. Too many comments are attributed to"casuals" that are made by vets.

No matter what their title is (casual or uber), there are many people who flip flop on subjects like this. This is why I couldn't care less about people who complain about the game becoming hard. They love to ruin my fun by demanding nerfs so now they see what it feels like.

[Kawai]

...but then they have a stroke when champions were released...

lolz - coffee though nose!

[slarden]

No matter what their title is (casual or uber), there are many people who flip flop on subjects like this. This is why I couldn't care less about people who complain about the game becoming hard. They love to ruin my fun by demanding nerfs so now they see what it feels like.

This I agree with fully. I guess the thinking is that a nerf to someone else is a proxy-buff to them.

[FranOhmsford]

No matter what their title is (casual or uber), there are many people who flip flop on subjects like this. This is why I couldn't care less about people who complain about the game becoming hard. They love to ruin my fun by demanding nerfs so now they see what it feels like.

Maybe that's because you're applying a simple two titles to the many many different players in this game!

Players coming to DDO may be Casual OR they may be Zergers, They may have never played an MMO before OR they may have Uber End-Game toons in WoW, EQ, SW:ToR and LotRO!
They may be 6 years old or 66!
They may be Geniuses or have left school without a single qualification to their names!

OR THEY MAY BE SOMEWHERE IN THE MIDDLE!!!

[SiliconScout]

One of the biggest complaints I have seen is that Champions don't offer a reward. It's not necessarily that they are too hard, it's that they add somewhat arbitrary difficulty with no real reward.

My suggestion was to change it up so that every single champion dropped a chest (obviously have to fix the rats, birds and statues as champions issue).

In that chest you basically get 50 - 500 Guild renown which is completely random. You also get a 100-500 XP stone with the CR of the champ influencing the chance you pull the higher XP stone.

This gives a reasonable reward for dealing with the champion, heck turbine could likely even nudge them a little closer to what they were on launch and it would be OK.

At any rate I doubt it's an idea that will catch on with them but hey .. I tried.

[FranOhmsford]

One of the biggest complaints I have seen is that Champions don't offer a reward. It's not necessarily that they are too hard, it's that they add somewhat arbitrary difficulty with no real reward.

My suggestion was to change it up so that every single champion dropped a chest (obviously have to fix the rats, birds and statues as champions issue).

In that chest you basically get 50 - 500 Guild renown which is completely random. You also get a 100-500 XP stone with the CR of the champ influencing the chance you pull the higher XP stone.

This gives a reasonable reward for dealing with the champion, heck turbine could likely even nudge them a little closer to what they were on launch and it would be OK.

At any rate I doubt it's an idea that will catch on with them but hey .. I tried.

The problem with this is that there are way way too many Champions spawning and these benefits would be insane if given to even HALF of them!

Also - I have never understood why Guild Renown has to be random in the first place?
OR why it suffers from much stricter rules on Character level than XP or Loot?

[Vint]

Maybe that's because you're applying a simple two titles to the many many different players in this game!

Players coming to DDO may be Casual OR they may be Zergers, They may have never played an MMO before OR they may have Uber End-Game toons in WoW, EQ, SW:ToR and LotRO!
They may be 6 years old or 66!
They may be Geniuses or have left school without a single qualification to their names!

OR THEY MAY BE SOMEWHERE IN THE MIDDLE!!!

I did not say you or anyone in particular is the ones complaining. Go look in the focused part if the forums. I am not even complaining about the nerfs to champions.

I am saying people (no matter what title) will complain about min/maxers having too many easy buttons and demand that the game be made harder for them via nerfing builds/playstyles.

In the very next thread they complain that Turbine should get rid of champions because it hurts their playstyle. This is what bothers me no matter if you are a Yale man or if you want to Harvard.

This is the problem I speak of. Players will comment on how they should nerf a playstyle they do not like, but then they cry when their own playstyle takes a hit. These are not made up facts or rumors. There are numerous threads that go back to 2006 about players demanding nerfs to things that do not even affect them, but they sure love to ruin the fun of others.

[Chai]

Providing links is not a violation. Of course, it's a convenient excuse since these claims of non-stop complaining and lobbying by casuals is pure fiction.

Are you seriously telling us no one has been complaining about zerging, invis running, nerfing shiradi, masters blitz, paladins, bards, OP casters, game is too easy, etc.... seriously?

Perhaps its done by "casuals" or perhaps its done by vets in the name of "casuals" in order to push their own agenda. Ive seen many iterations of vets throwing newbies and casuals under the bus when complaining about a particular change they dont like due to not wanting to put their own premise on the line, because they clearly understand it would undermine and contradict all claims of being uber, and refute claims of not needing to learn to play better, doing it wrong, etc.

There have also been quite a few threads in the past with suggestions regarding randomizing quests, traps, encounters etc, to make the game less predictable, but the minute they put these champions in, the waffling began in spades.

[LongshotBro]

Korthos is supposed to be a Tutorial Area. If any quests are supposed to be doable even on elite any time, it´s there. So basically introducing champions in quests like The Cannith Crystall or Redemption is just a bad idea. I would suggest for the devs to keep champions out of either Korthos quests or lv. 1 quests all together, to introduce champions on elite lv. 2 quests and have all lv. 3+ quests sprt champions the way they are currently applied, except for giving at least some token reward (minor XP and renown) for slaying them. I feel mostly annoyed by them because they make me run quests longer than expected. They do not provide any challenge for the prepared vet. They just slow things down.

Perhaps one of the lessons to learn in the tutorial is precisely what this thread is about: a warning to enter elite difficulty with caution. Certainly, learning that going into the hardest content on your own or under level, and it presenting a challenge, is a good lesson to learn early on in your character's career.

Imagine there are no champs until some of the level breaks that have been mentioned throughout (4, 10, 16...). Then we'd just move this whole debate further up the chain. People would be like "what's up with the sudden increase in difficulty at level <whatever level champs appear at>? I was soloing elite and then all of a sudden...and now I quit DDO."

[FranOhmsford]

I did not say you or anyone in particular is the ones complaining. Go look in the focused part if the forums. I am not even complaining about the nerfs to champions.

I am saying people (no matter what title) will complain about min/maxers having too many easy buttons and demand that the game be made harder for them via nerfing builds/playstyles.

In the very next thread they complain that Turbine should get rid of champions because it hurts their playstyle. This is what bothers me no matter if you are a Yale man or if you want to Harvard.

This is the problem I speak of. Players will comment on how they should nerf a playstyle they do not like, but then they cry when their own playstyle takes a hit. These are not made up facts or rumors. There are numerous threads that go back to 2006 about players demanding nerfs to things that do not even affect them, but they sure love to ruin the fun of others.

You're still not getting it.

Hypothetical example

A 26 year old University {doesn't matter which} educated self employed man with 2-3hrs a day average playtime in DDO
This man came to DDO having never played another MMO - He likes PnP and understands PnP but has no knowledge of the meaning of terms like Tank or DPS {though he could quickly pick those terms up}.
This man absolutely loves playing The Pit but loathes Spies in the House - Is this because Spies is harder than The Pit - NO!
Do these quests have significantly different styles of play - NO! {They're quite similar in fact!}.
Should this man be told to shut up when complaining about Spies just because he loves The Pit - NO!

P.S. I Personally like Spies a lot and I absolutely Loathe The Pit YET I know at least two people who have the exact opposite opinion!


Anyway back to the discussion at hand

I personally don't have anything against Champions per se {the idea itself is a good one!} even though my history on these forums would make me the obvious example of a player who should be totally against them!

My issue with them is that the Devs went for a System Wide change without considering the many consequences inherent with the vast differences in this game!

It was very very obvious when Champions first arrived that the spawn rate was way off what the Devs had stated it would be and honestly as far as I'm concerned it's still to high!

It's also quite honestly ludicrous for every single mob type to have a chance of becoming a Champion!


And finally

I find it incredible that the Devs answer to everyone playing Elites is to FORCE a Split in a game that has hemorrhaged players over the past 3 years!

Champions in the current phase are an arbitrary glass ceiling that will simply widen the gap between those who've already reached the level to cope with them and those who haven't!
People coming to this game now - Well they have no idea of the work needed to get to that point!


Coda

Champions themselves are a good idea done badly wrong!

[Chai]

You're still not getting it.

Hypothetical example

A 26 year old University {doesn't matter which} educated self employed man with 2-3hrs a day average playtime in DDO
This man came to DDO having never played another MMO - He likes PnP and understands PnP but has no knowledge of the meaning of terms like Tank or DPS {though he could quickly pick those terms up}.
This man absolutely loves playing The Pit but loathes Spies in the House - Is this because Spies is harder than The Pit - NO!
Do these quests have significantly different styles of play - NO! {They're quite similar in fact!}.
Should this man be told to shut up when complaining about Spies just because he loves The Pit - NO!

P.S. I Personally like Spies a lot and I absolutely Loathe The Pit YET I know at least two people who have the exact opposite opinion!


Anyway back to the discussion at hand

I personally don't have anything against Champions per se {the idea itself is a good one!} even though my history on these forums would make me the obvious example of a player who should be totally against them!

My issue with them is that the Devs went for a System Wide change without considering the many consequences inherent with the vast differences in this game!

It was very very obvious when Champions first arrived that the spawn rate was way off what the Devs had stated it would be and honestly as far as I'm concerned it's still to high!

It's also quite honestly ludicrous for every single mob type to have a chance of becoming a Champion!


And finally

I find it incredible that the Devs answer to everyone playing Elites is to FORCE a Split in a game that has hemorrhaged players over the past 3 years!

Champions in the current phase are an arbitrary glass ceiling that will simply widen the gap between those who've already reached the level to cope with them and those who haven't!
People coming to this game now - Well they have no idea of the work needed to get to that point!


Coda

Champions themselves are a good idea done badly wrong!

They didn't do a system wide change. Champions were implemented in 2 of the 4 difficulties.

This is what Vint is saying, in context to your analogy. If the guy in your example loves the pit, but complains about spies to the point where spies gets changed and people who used to like spies no longer do, then he has no right to be peeved when people complain about the pit and it gets changed into something he no longer likes. This is the direct contradiction in logic people are pointing out regarding demanding changes which essentially affect entire playstyles (usually not the playstyle of the people making the demands).