Vip - rip

[Lanhelin]

On my main, who has every past life and all relevant gear in the game, i have recently done a 1 to 28 zerg run, all Elite, lfm open to anyone.
I ran past champions i didn't have to kill and steamrolled over those i did.

So you're a completionist and don't care about numbers? What a surprise.

[Vint]

So you're a completionist and don't care about numbers? What a surprise.

I do not want to get into a debate or hash semantics with you. I have 2 pieces of advice.

1. If you cannot beat elite (no matter what level or build) run hard or normal.
2. If you feel that you are being done wrong as a VIP because you cannot beat elite (what you can open) go back to premium.

If you are simply posting that the game is too hard then I will bow out knowing that there are entitlement issues.

[Lanhelin]

I do not want to get into a debate or hash semantics with you. I have 2 pieces of advice.

1. If you cannot beat elite (no matter what level or build) run hard or normal.
2. If you feel that you are being done wrong as a VIP because you cannot beat elite (what you can open) go back to premium.

If you are simply posting that the game is too hard then I will bow out knowing that there are entitlement issues.

And the next defender. Welcome! But I'm really interested in why you are defending a completely unsophisticated design decision? Do you lose anything when new ViPs beat lvl 1 quests on elite? Do you suffer any disadvantages? I just don't get it. What is your - and every others - motivation to defend this design?

[Azarddoze]

And the next defender. Welcome! But I'm really interested in why you are defending a completely unsophisticated design decision? Do you lose anything when new ViPs beat lvl 1 quests on elite? Do you suffer any disadvantages? I just don't get it. What is your - and every others - motivation to defend this design?

Those kind of decisions (Elite for everyone, yay!) totally drove me off the game at the expense of a whiner like you.

So yes, it has consequences to cater to noobs exclusively.

[Lanhelin]

Those kind of decisions (Elite for everyone, yay!) totally drove me off the game at the expense of a whiner like you.

So yes, it has consequences to cater to noobs exclusively.

And your contribution to this thread, the topic or the issues mentioned in it exactly is ...?

Edit: I'm not a whiner, I'm a fighter. And if you were half a fighter as I am the "Elite for everyone" thing never had happened.

[Azarddoze]

And your contribution to this thread, the topic or the issues mentioned in it exactly is ...?

Remembering you how much of a noob you are until you realize it and play in a difficulty that you can beat without dragging everything to the lowest denominator through whining on the forum?

Come on, at least play that troll game when i'm not answering to what you asked. Even if it was such troll that you can't remember what it was 2mins later... try harder.

[PermaBanned]

So champs are not meant to add difficulty but variability - but why the hell are they in actual level 1 (upgraded to 3) quests where characters not have variable tactics available yet? This doesn't clear up the thing. It just reads like "Uh, it's not >difficulty< it's >variability<, u know, variability is the new difficulty". But it's not. I mean, would I really put that much effort into a thread if I just died by astonishing variability? I guess, not.

They're in all Hard and Elite quests - you know, the two difficulties synonymous with Hard and Even Harder? Which makes Champs really easy to avoid, btw ^^

However, as for your concern over a lack of "variable tactics" that low level players may have:

• The Trip feat is a freebe and quite effective at those low levels (hint: Champs have no special resistance vs Tacticle DCs).

• Skills like Bluff, Intim & Diplo can work wonders for redirecting mob agro. (hint: Champs have no special resistance vs Skill DCs).

• Caster classes have a variety of Daze & Charm effects to choose from at 1st level (hint: a Charmed Champ is a powerful ally!)

• There's also really crazy choices like not soloing the quest - but I wouldn't want to suggest such craziness in a MMO

Any narrowly focused 1st level character in use by an inexperienced/new player has at least one of ^those^ options available - and Elite isn't really intended for inexperienced new players. Any experienced player can easily have at least 2 of the above options on all but the most narrowly focused 1st level character build. A reincarnated 1st level caster could easily have at least 3 {if not more} effective options (<- read as: "variety of tactics") for dealing with Champions/other threats.

The more interesting thing is, why I should have more tactics available ingame with a level 1 toon because of this thread? Does it thread-magic-wise gives my toon more options? Interesting. Please continue to make my toon better.

Improving the character is a near fruitless endeavor when the player themselves remain unimproved. In the case of this 1st level Rogue (built to be a Wizzy) the Player was far more limited in tactical options than the Character was

As noted in the first part of this post, your tactical options are not limited the Feats tab of your character sheet; there's also the Skills tab, the (if applicable) Spells tab, the Hireling (and how to best use it) option, and *gasp* the Social Panel just to name a few...

[Lanhelin]

Remembering you how much of a noob you are until you realize it and play in a difficulty that you can beat without dragging everything to the lowest denominator through whining on the forum?

Come on, at least play that troll game when i'm not answering to what you asked. Even if it was such troll that you can't remember what it was 2mins later... try harder.

I'm quite sure you're mistakin me with somebody else. I don't know what you're talking about. Sry, can't help you with this. But thank you for visiting this thread

[Vint]

And the next defender. Welcome! But I'm really interested in why you are defending a completely unsophisticated design decision? Do you lose anything when new ViPs beat lvl 1 quests on elite? Do you suffer any disadvantages? I just don't get it. What is your - and every others - motivation to defend this design?

I am not defending just this. Over the years it has become the normal for people to come here and complain about game design (and I do not always disagree) but often people complain that the game is too hard and want to dumb down the game more than what it has become.

For instance, I am against bravery bonus. I feel that it is bad for the game and it does hurt newer or players that cannot handle elite/hard. In the same breath I do not think Turbine should cater the game so that a new person off the boat should be able to run the HIGHEST difficulty.

Not strutting my ego, but if we make this game so easy that a new person can run the highest difficulty what challenge does a person with all the twink gear, past lives, plat, etc… have? That is my ultimate point.

I agree that there are many flaws at Turbine, but I do not think it is wise to alienate even more vets because some new person does not offer the best of the best just for showing up in other games that they have played.

[PermaBanned]

What is your ... motivation to defend this design?

Because I enjoyed it - especially when it first went live, before they Chumpified the Champs.

I remember Elite being really difficult - liked that, thought it was appropriate. Then I watched the abomination called "Scaling" get implemented so that all quests (excluding Raids) on all difficulties could be made easier if short-manning and even easier if soloing. Then I watched character power (Loot & Enhancement revamps) get significantly inflated compared to the environments power - to the extent that I was successfully able to /afk for a coffee refill and a smoke outside while my character (on Elite @ level) sat idle in the middle of open ground in Kobold Assault and when I got back almost 10 minutes later ... I wasn't dead!

Then along came the Champs, and if I wasn't paying attention (and maybe even if I was!) I got splattered - a refreshing change that was long over due: the highest difficulty setting actually had a chance of failure! No more half asleep facerolling the Elites - oh wait, nevermind - the whining started in fast, hard and early and they got blunted right quick.

I found most sad that your "Canith Crystal is too hard on Elite" was even after they softened up the Champs.

But no - you must be right: Turbine really screwed the pooch by not ensuring the highest difficulty setting could be dominated by ungeared First life toons operated by new players who don't know how to use the Skills, Feats and Other Options at their characters disposal. /head->desk

[Fallout_Zero]

And the next defender. Welcome! But I'm really interested in why you are defending a completely unsophisticated design decision? Do you lose anything when new ViPs beat lvl 1 quests on elite? Do you suffer any disadvantages? I just don't get it. What is your - and every others - motivation to defend this design?

This is to introduce you that elite is not the joke it was before.

Be prepared.

Gear or knowledge.

[Lanhelin]

Not strutting my ego, but if we make this game so easy that a new person can run the highest difficulty what challenge does a person with all the twink gear, past lives, plat, etc… have? That is my ultimate point.

DDO never was an easy game. And it won't be in future. But Korthos quests should be excluded from Champs, shouldn't they? I mean, even the early Harbor quests should be excluded. Let the champ-fest start at those difficulties, where one wouldn't dare to go alone Elite even with past-lives. This would be about lvl 16+.

Elite has never been easy, also not in the past. Mainly because of traps, but now because of champs too. But the very first Elites should be the confirmation to be ViP - or a very patient player - but not a win/die difficulty.

[Ayseifn]

DDO never was an easy game. And it won't be in future. But Korthos quests should be excluded from Champs, shouldn't they? I mean, even the early Harbor quests should be excluded. Let the champ-fest start at those difficulties, where one wouldn't dare to go alone Elite even with past-lives. This would be about lvl 16+.

Elite has never been easy, also not in the past. Mainly because of traps, but now because of champs too. But the very first Elites should be the confirmation to be ViP - or a very patient player - but not a win/die difficulty.

Elite may not be easy for you but it is for some, they've even posted in this thread.

Most people that find elite easy have been playing for a long time, have lots of gear and know the quests inside and out, what champions bring shakes up a lot of that. For the first time in a long time I was having fun levelling instead of face rolling content accumulating yet another past life, then champs got nerfed and now it's mostly back to face rolling.

[Lanhelin]

This is to introduce you that elite is not the joke it was before.

Be prepared.

Gear or knowledge.

No, Elite always has been tougher. But now it's just luck or no luck. No matter what gear or knowledge. Champ spawns y/n? If n - luck, complete quest. If y - doom. This 50/50 chance is completely different to x/fail open a door or turn a wheel or find a trap. If you don't open the door, you missed the bonus content, if you couldn't turn the wheel you miss the loot spot, if you didn't find the trap you die or jump over and survive it. But if you face a champ, it's a 100% chance to fail to skillwise overcome it. You have to deal with it (but mostly it will deal with you). And I want to say it again: I do not talk about champs in higher levels, I talk about quests in the starter area. Would you suffer that much when lvl 1 toons can beat Korthos quests on Elite with ease?

[PermaBanned]

DDO never was an easy game.
<snip>
Elite has never been easy...

O.o? I could've sworn you're the OP that said...

When I left, quests on Khorthos were easy, almost all even on Elite, except the one where to keep the npc alive. All fine, but now I fail at the "defeat the chrystal" quest all the time...

...yup, same forum handle saying Elite was and wasn't easy, even on Korthos; but it's the Edit I like the most:

Edit:
I mean, what is the incentive nowadays to become a VIP? Getting all the content but getting ripped in the first elite quest? No, definitely not. Please, take a little more time to think about your decisions - or explain the hyper-10-times-reincarnated-it's-still-a-challenge difficulty increase! Or should I move DDO directly into the desktop-basket, should I uninstall, is this your intention? I want an answer, please.

Completely ignoring all the posts and info in this thread sharing tactics and strategies for defeating that exact quest on Elite on a first life new character. But no-no, just keep throwing fits and making demands as though Turbine's actually gone and put some insurmountable challange in the way of completing and disregard any proof or commentary to the opposite.

[Lanhelin]

For the first time in a long time I was having fun levelling instead of face rolling content accumulating yet another past life, then champs got nerfed and now it's mostly back to face rolling.

"yet another past life" ... you're so very qualified to talk about this issue in a thread where a 1st lifer complained about it. Yeah, please continue to whine about the face rolling - but not here, go to the "I'm a completionist and cannot beat Korthos quests on Elite (nurf champs pls)" thread, thank you.

[Lanhelin]

O.o? I could've sworn you're the OP that said...

...yup, same forum handle saying Elite was and wasn't easy, even on Korthos; but it's the Edit I like the most:

Completely ignoring all the posts and info in this thread sharing tactics and strategies for defeating that exact quest on Elite on a first life new character. But no-no, just keep throwing fits and making demands as though Turbine's actually gone and put some insurmountable challange in the way of completing and disregard any proof or commentary to the opposite.

I said Elite wasn't easy because of traps.

I do not ignore the posts, because for my initial problem the solution already was found on page 2/3. I did like adviced and succeded. But the discussion now is about champs in starter areas and elite difficulty in general. It's no no-no from my side, it's actually all others who made this thread a 13+ page monster.

[Ayseifn]

"yet another past life" ... you're so very qualified to talk about this issue in a thread where a 1st lifer complained about it. Yeah, please continue to whine about the face rolling - but not here, go to the "I'm a completionist and cannot beat Korthos quests on Elite (nurf champs pls)" thread, thank you.

DDO never was an easy game. And it won't be in future. But Korthos quests should be excluded from Champs, shouldn't they? I mean, even the early Harbor quests should be excluded. Let the champ-fest start at those difficulties, where one wouldn't dare to go alone Elite even with past-lives. This would be about lvl 16+.

Elite has never been easy, also not in the past. Mainly because of traps, but now because of champs too. But the very first Elites should be the confirmation to be ViP - or a very patient player - but not a win/die difficulty.

So I shouldn't be able to have any fun until I reach level 16? No thank you.

[Lanhelin]

So I shouldn't be able to have any fun until I reach level 16? No thank you.

So I shouldn't have fun when beginning to play DDO? Interesting.

Edit: But this leads to another idea: Turbine, make champs appear only in instances opened by Past-Lifers. They seem to want to have fun - let them have fun! But let First Lifers also have fun and experience the dungeons, the mechanics, the locations of traps in peace - they won't complain I guess, if they don't face any champs. Make champ-appearance a past life feature. New players would be curious about it, trying to get into the first past life as fast as possible. With this change I could live - and probably log in to a past life toon after I got used to gameplay again.

[Ayseifn]

So I shouldn't have fun when beginning to play DDO? Interesting.

If hard and normal aren't enjoyably maybe they need a look in, getting rid of bravery bonus is another thing I'd like to see to help get rid of the elite or nothing mentality.

Edit: Heck give full favour for hard completions too, it's not about excluding people I just want to have fun. The first round of champions were really fun and love to see them come back.