Best level drain epic melee build?

[Saekee]

Update 7/01/2017: Current summary of thoughts from everyone is in post#33.


As title--any thoughts? All assume Improved critical feat if needed
1) Dual wielding Nightmares on a paladin (Holy Sword) in Divine crusader (grindy to get them) or a fighter splash with tier 5 Keen edge
2) Combination of Swashbuckler and vampire form with Epic Envenomed Blade and mabar augment with Perfect SWF or maybe with a Cormyrian weapon with Life Stealing, also in Divine crusader and tier 5 swash OR with Sacrificial daggers OR a rare lootgen Obscenity light weapon.
3) Vampire monk and grave wrappings (easiest to do). Fast handwrap attack speed, averages 3 neg levels on a 20 with defensive bonus of 35 hp shield.
4) Vampire rogue TWF with knife specialization and sacrificial daggers in Divine Crusader.
5) SWF Vamp monk using LCEWS. I believe the neg leveling procs on the doublestrike (since void and SCEWL) also proc on the DS) and vamp neg leveling will proc more often with PSWF


I assume these would be better than a staff build, even with staff buffs and LD's crit range staff bonus.

I feel like vamp forms need the tier 5 for their shroud to reduce light vulnerability, making their combo with other tier 5 enhancements problematic like #2 and #4 above.

14 Pally 6 wiz vamp would be just dumb...

Thoughts?

[Mercureal]

Go for a Vampire Wizard Monk, Path of Harmonious Balance:

- Take Henshin Mystic tier 5 (who cares about light damage!) for the ability Every Light Casts a Shadow: 1-4 neg level special attack, plus area effect if the enemy dies quickly

- get the Wave of Despair extra from tier 1 Ninja Spy for an area effect level drain on your dark finisher

- spam Enervation, Necrotic Blast and Necrotic Ray

- for Heroic levels, if you have the Dreamspitter or a version of the [Staff of the Shadow, take the Cleave feat and liberally use it and Eldritch Strike from the Eldritch Knight tree

- avoid any quest that has enemies with light attacks

....

- Profit!

[Saekee]

Go for a Vampire Wizard Monk, Path of Harmonious Balance:

- Take Henshin Mystic tier 5 (who cares about light damage!) for the ability Every Light Casts a Shadow: 1-4 neg level special attack, plus area effect if the enemy dies quickly

- get the Wave of Despair extra from tier 1 Ninja Spy for an area effect level drain on your dark finisher

- spam Enervation, Necrotic Blast and Necrotic Ray

- for Heroic levels, if you have the Dreamspitter or a version of the [Staff of the Shadow, take the Cleave feat and liberally use it and Eldritch Strike from the Eldritch Knight tree

- avoid any quest that has enemies with light attacks

....

- Profit!

hey Mercureal, great advice and thanks for responding! I had considered the tier 5 henshin but my main worry is that vamp form really needs its Tier 5 since it reduces light damage, the weak spot of vamp form. I agree that definitely one of the advantages of the vampire splashes is the use of level draining spells in advance of melee. I wonder if it is redundant, though--if the effects of level drain taper out too quickly to be of use once one is draining so many levels.

Also, I wonder if the extended critical threat range offered by Divine Crusader might make the other options more effective?

[Mercureal]

I was being partly facetious, vamp form definitely makes light damage painful. But, I think Henshin is the way to go if you're looking to strictly max out melee level drain abilities.

In terms of epic levels, extending the critical range will help with any of the weapons but it's hard to compare effectiveness without knowing the exact chance that you get with lifestealing. Grave Wrappings give you a guaranteed drain on a 20 and the higher monk attack rate - I'm not sure at what % and crit range that balances out with lifestealing.

I've never used Nightmare, but I have used dual Sacrificial Daggers and Grave Wrappings on the same build in a past life - I didn't measure it, but rate of level drain 'felt' significantly higher with the wraps. I didn't have IC: Pierce, but I had Rogue levels and had taken Knife Specialization, so I had an 18-20 crit range. Anecdotal and therefore useless, but there you go.

On effectiveness, for Heroic I don't think most monsters will survive long enough to regenerate any lost levels. The might on epic, but I don't remember the Hit Points they lose coming back. A player posted a thread early last year with results his testing of the mechanic that might be a little use: https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/407401

[Saekee]

I had forgotten about that thread--must have been one of the unconscious motivations.
Looks like grave wrappings have more going on than standard energy drain. Also, even if a mob quickly gets its levels back (in epics, which is the interest here for me), the hit points do not recovery. Happens to players also--same idea.

Maybe the Henshin might work with one of the draining staves since tier5 Henshin also has staff expanded profile. Outside of the heroic ones, the other seems rare to get.

[Mercureal]

Sacrificial Dagger is fairly easy to get, either through the Quest Chain reward or the AH, but the other Epic weapons would be more challenging. Dreamspitter would probably be tricky too, even though it's heroic it's a raid weapon, and I don't know how often Reaver's Fate is run these days. Staff of Shadow is fairly easy to farm and is bound to account - and the crafted variants are BTCoE, so easy enough to make and transfer to another character.

[Saekee]

well there are the life stealing cormyrian options--the ingredients are not too high and you can recrunch them if the weapon stinks.

[Mindos]

As title--any thoughts? All assume Improved critical feat if needed
1) Dual wielding Nightmares on a paladin (Holy Sword) in Divine crusader (grindy to get them) or a fighter splash with tier 5 Keen edge
2) Combination of Swashbuckler and vampire form with Epic Envenomed Blade and mabar augment with Perfect SWF or maybe with a Cormyrian weapon with Life Stealing, also in Divine crusader and tier 5 swash OR with Sacrificial daggers OR a rare lootgen Obscenity light weapon.
3) Vampire monk and grave wrappings (easiest to do). Fast handwrap attack speed, averages 3 neg levels on a 20 with defensive bonus of 35 hp shield.
4) Vampire rogue TWF with knife specialization and sacrificial daggers in Divine Crusader.


I assume these would be better than a staff build, even with staff buffs and LD's crit range staff bonus.

I feel like vamp forms need the tier 5 for their shroud to reduce light vulnerability, making their combo with other tier 5 enhancements problematic like #2 and #4 above.

14 Pally 6 wiz vamp would be just dumb...

Thoughts?

Don't forget ruby of the endless night...

[Mercureal]

well there are the life stealing cormyrian options--the ingredients are not too high and you can recrunch them if the weapon stinks.

Yes, but that could get tedious quickly, unless you have a lot of materials saved up or love the challenges. At one point I collected enough ingredients to make 10 or 11 items, trying to get just the right set of effects on a caster staff for my Divine Disciple cleric. Even with recrunching, which gave me about 15 total pulls, the best version was just okay.

Continuing on, if you have materials or are willing to run Shroud, you could make an Enervation weapon - I think Shroud weapon effects are about 4-5%, so approximately equal frequency to a roll of 20. And you could make an Enervation Guard accessory too, for extra level draining goodness.

And for light resistance, there's an ability in the Exalted Angel tree that reduces it by 30%, which is twistable. And I think Shadowdancer has a Protection from Light ability, although it only shields about 150 points from what I remember.

Edited to add: And I just remembered the obvious, which is the new-ish random weapon effects feeding and draining, guaranteed level drains on a 20 with temporary hit points or spell points, respectively. An easy way to fill the weapon slot while looking for a named item, the Auction House and quest loot tables are practically overflowing with them.

[Saekee]

Yes, but that could get tedious quickly, unless you have a lot of materials saved up or love the challenges. At one point I collected enough ingredients to make 10 or 11 items, trying to get just the right set of effects on a caster staff for my Divine Disciple cleric. Even with recrunching, which gave me about 15 total pulls, the best version was just okay.

Continuing on, if you have materials or are willing to run Shroud, you could make an Enervation weapon - I think Shroud weapon effects are about 4-5%, so approximately equal frequency to a roll of 20. And you could make an Enervation Guard accessory too, for extra level draining goodness.

And for light resistance, there's an ability in the Exalted Angel tree that reduces it by 30%, which is twistable. And I think Shadowdancer has a Protection from Light ability, although it only shields about 150 points from what I remember.

Edited to add: And I just remembered the obvious, which is the new-ish random weapon effects feeding and draining, guaranteed level drains on a 20 with temporary hit points or spell points, respectively. An easy way to fill the weapon slot while looking for a named item, the Auction House and quest loot tables are practically overflowing with them.

I forgot about greensteel enervation. But I think that would be more for heroics. The feeding/draining are vorpal life stealing for one level; as Mindos reminds, one could find one with a red augment slot and put in a ruby of endless night.
Was also thinking about that twist for light absorption but had forgotten about shadowdancer's ability as well. I nearly have an Epic Mirror Cloak pit together; I think in combination a tier 5 vamp with the twist would be doable.

Don't forget ruby of the endless night...

hi Mindos, thx--I had forgotten about those. They only work on vorpal but every bit counts! One could put one in the Epic envenomed blade and make it very effective on the Swash/vamp option above!
I think they could go in Nightmare to make it even more scary.
Too bad Obscenity weapons do not drop anymore.

I wonder if this could work with a thrower. I have a life stealing shuriken--maybe on a pure ninja halfling to expand the crit 2x? Probably borked.

[Firewall]

(...)I wonder if this could work with a thrower. I have a life stealing shuriken--maybe on a pure ninja halfling to expand the crit 2x? Probably borked.

Life Stealing works pretty well with a thrower. You can have a very high rate of level drains if you have the expanded crit range and attack rate of a pure monk (my Shuricannon can crit on 13-20 in Divine Crusader) with a Life Stealing Spelltouched shuriken (~33% chance of level drain on Crit).

The other option for throwers is a Thunderforged Shuriken with a slotted Ruby of Endless night and Crippling Flames as Tier 3 option:

Crippling Flames: On Crit: 135 to 325 Fire Damage. On Hit: 5% chance to apply 2 Negative Levels.

The high rate of fire makes for an awesome amout of level drains.

[Saekee]

Life Stealing works pretty well with a thrower. You can have a very high rate of level drains if you have the expanded crit range and attack rate of a pure monk (my Shuricannon can crit on 13-20 in Divine Crusader) with a Life Stealing Spelltouched shuriken (~33% chance of level drain on Crit).

The other option for throwers is a Thunderforged Shuriken with a slotted Ruby of Endless night and Crippling Flames as Tier 3 option:

Crippling Flames: On Crit: 135 to 325 Fire Damage. On Hit: 5% chance to apply 2 Negative Levels.

The high rate of fire makes for an awesome amout of level drains.

Hi Firewall, thx for the response. I read somewhere that the life stealing on Cormyrian weapons is borked and only procs on a vorpal instead of a crit. Have you found it to be otherwise? My internet is down but I am close to be able to use my level 24 life stealing shuriken.
In my last epic life I had fun as a shuricannon but do not recall how well the life stealing procced.
If it does work, a high dex high wisdom shurichucker in divine crusader could get the maximum level drains while 10K stars is active!

I feel like tier3 TF items for melees and ranged seem to always be mortal fear. Anyway the minimum level would result in 'endgame' useage which is for me means reincarnate again.

[Firewall]

Hi Firewall, thx for the response. I read somewhere that the life stealing on Cormyrian weapons is borked and only procs on a vorpal instead of a crit. Have you found it to be otherwise?(...)

I epic reincarnated just today so i cannot test it first hand but last time i used it it worked just fine. Keep in mind that they changed it a few updates ago to only have a CHANCE to proc on a crit. And that chance is about 33% according to DDOWiki. The high crit range and number of attacks still makes for a good number of procs.

[Firewall]

Ok i tested it today and the Life Stealing still seems to work fine on shuriken crits - even on non-vorpal ones. With Improved Precise Shot its fun to proc level drains all over groups of mobs.

[Saekee]

Ok i tested it today and the Life Stealing still seems to work fine on shuriken crits - even on non-vorpal ones. With Improved Precise Shot its fun to proc level drains all over groups of mobs.

Many thanks! Glad I pulled that lit2 caustic aligned life stealing shuriken!

[SealedInSong]

As title--any thoughts? All assume Improved critical feat if needed
1) Dual wielding Nightmares on a paladin (Holy Sword) in Divine crusader (grindy to get them) or a fighter splash with tier 5 Keen edge
2) Combination of Swashbuckler and vampire form with Epic Envenomed Blade and mabar augment with Perfect SWF or maybe with a Cormyrian weapon with Life Stealing, also in Divine crusader and tier 5 swash OR with Sacrificial daggers OR a rare lootgen Obscenity light weapon.
3) Vampire monk and grave wrappings (easiest to do). Fast handwrap attack speed, averages 3 neg levels on a 20 with defensive bonus of 35 hp shield.
4) Vampire rogue TWF with knife specialization and sacrificial daggers in Divine Crusader.

I'm still interested to see what the community says about the best level draining melee build. No offense to throwers, who are obviously awesome in any scenario given their attack rate.

[Xyfiel]

Life stealing was changed to 25% chance for each negative level to proc on a crit. So 1-3 neg levels on item looks like this:

1/4 (25%) one neg level
1/16 (25%x25%) two neg levels
1/64 (25%x25%x25%) three neg levels

Add this together:
16/64
4/64
1/64
21/64 = 32.8125%

This is why wiki shows ~33% based on testing to see a neg level proc. It doesn't show how many procced though. Disclaimer: I am on pain pills so my math may be way off.

[Firewall]

Life stealing was changed to 25% chance for each negative level to proc on a crit. So 1-3 neg levels on item looks like this:

1/4 (25%) one neg level
1/16 (25%x25%) two neg levels
1/64 (25%x25%x25%) three neg levels

Add this together:
16/64
4/64
1/64
21/64 = 32.8125%

This is why wiki shows ~33% based on testing to see a neg level proc. It doesn't show how many procced though. Disclaimer: I am on pain pills so my math may be way off.

Interesting. But where did you get this kind of info from?

[Firewall]

Go for a Vampire Wizard Monk, Path of Harmonious Balance:

- Take Henshin Mystic tier 5 (who cares about light damage!) for the ability Every Light Casts a Shadow: 1-4 neg level special attack, plus area effect if the enemy dies quickly

- get the Wave of Despair extra from tier 1 Ninja Spy for an area effect level drain on your dark finisher

- spam Enervation, Necrotic Blast and Necrotic Ray

- for Heroic levels, if you have the Dreamspitter or a version of the [Staff of the Shadow, take the Cleave feat and liberally use it and Eldritch Strike from the Eldritch Knight tree

- avoid any quest that has enemies with light attacks

....

- Profit!

I think this is a good base for a melee level drain build. Splash at least one level of Rogue to gain +15% attack speed for staves and also take the Tier 5 Staff Specialization to expand your crit range with staves and run in Divine Crusader for even more crit range to get the most out of Life Stealing. In higher levels you can add the Ruby of Endless night and use an upgraded Dreampiercer or a Crippling Flame TF staff.

[Connman]

I am currently on my monk life. I was asked the question "what are you using to neg level everything" in a pug. The answer was RNG of feeding. There are better weapons I am sure, but 2 things to consider:

1. You need whirlwind attack. It is better than described for sure. It is not attack everyone around you once, it is attack everyone around you 4 times. Seems to give those results on handwraps only. Yes it takes 5 feats, take them or be gimp, all there is to it. I passed on that whirlwind attack many, many times on other toons. I was wrong. It rocks.

2. Chance of 1d3 neg levels on hit < always neg levels on a 20.

My tactics are healing mark, stunning blow (next target) stunning fist, healing mark, whirlwind attack, great cleave, quivering palm on the one that neg leveled, rinse repeat.