Mithril armors and prr/mrr

[Rawrargh]

So it's my understanding that mithril armors are just like regular armors, they still offer the same protection. Except they're lighter.

The way it works in game is that a mithril armors get +2 MDB -3 ACP and -10% ASF and count as an armor type lower, as in a fullplate counts as a medium armor for proficiency purposes. Breastplate counts as light allowing evasion to work and so on and so forth.

My problem with mithril armors, is that they only offer the prr/mrr of a lighter armor. This pretty much makes mithril (something that should be awesome) turn into something that should be avoided in the current meta.

So I guess my question is: Is this intentional or an oversight?

[Chi_Ryu]

So it's my understanding that mithril armors are just like regular armors, they still offer the same protection. Except they're lighter.

The way it works in game is that a mithril armors get +2 MDB -3 ACP and -10% ASF and count as an armor type lower, as in a fullplate counts as a medium armor for proficiency purposes. Breastplate counts as light allowing evasion to work and so on and so forth.

My problem with mithril armors, is that they only offer the prr/mrr of a lighter armor. This pretty much makes mithril (something that should be awesome) turn into something that should be avoided in the current meta.

So I guess my question is: Is this intentional or an oversight?

It was raised as an issue by players when the Armor Up changes were previewed on Lammania.

I wish it would be fixed, as it means I currently avoid Mithril armor.

[Inoukchuk]

So it's my understanding that mithril armors are just like regular armors, they still offer the same protection. Except they're lighter.

The way it works in game is that a mithril armors get +2 MDB -3 ACP and -10% ASF and count as an armor type lower, as in a fullplate counts as a medium armor for proficiency purposes. Breastplate counts as light allowing evasion to work and so on and so forth.

My problem with mithril armors, is that they only offer the prr/mrr of a lighter armor. This pretty much makes mithril (something that should be awesome) turn into something that should be avoided in the current meta.

So I guess my question is: Is this intentional or an oversight?

IMO it's an oversight. The coding for mithral predates PRR (and obviously then MRR), so once upon a time the only protection afforded by armor was AC, and the AC of the item was coded independently of the armor type, so they could make mithral plate function more or less like mithral plate. Adding PRR threw this off and was never adjusted for. Mithral should provide all the advantages of the lighter category while providing all the protection of the heavier category (base category).

Otherwise yes, mithral is to be avoided rather than sought after.

[JOTMON]

So it's my understanding that mithril armors are just like regular armors, they still offer the same protection. Except they're lighter.

The way it works in game is that a mithril armors get +2 MDB -3 ACP and -10% ASF and count as an armor type lower, as in a fullplate counts as a medium armor for proficiency purposes. Breastplate counts as light allowing evasion to work and so on and so forth.

My problem with mithril armors, is that they only offer the prr/mrr of a lighter armor. This pretty much makes mithril (something that should be awesome) turn into something that should be avoided in the current meta.

So I guess my question is: Is this intentional or an oversight?

Currently Mithril is screwed and adamantine is worthless..
They know about it and they did say somewhere that they were going to look at it at some future unknown unspecified date.
I trashed all my mithril.. for me its robes and max dodge/evasion or heavy armor & PRR, everything in between is meh... pointless.

[unbongwah]

If you're playing a non-centered Evasion toon or a Swashbuckler, you need to stick with light armor; in which case mithril is no worse than any other armor. It's mithril full plate which got screwed up by the armor overhaul, because it only provides the PRR/MRR of med armor but it doesn't get the full MDB of med, which also caps your Dodge bonus. So it's like the worst aspects of med & hvy armor without their benefits.

eDeneith Hvy Chain is in need of an upgrade for much the same reason: it has the MDB of full plate (MDB 1), but it's med armor in terms of prof. and PRR/MRR. Considering it's one of the few sources of Vertigo +15, it's also one of the few pre-MotU epic armors which still has any (situational) value.

[Thar]

IMO it's an oversight. The coding for mithral predates PRR (and obviously then MRR), so once upon a time the only protection afforded by armor was AC, and the AC of the item was coded independently of the armor type, so they could make mithral plate function more or less like mithral plate. Adding PRR threw this off and was never adjusted for. Mithral should provide all the advantages of the lighter category while providing all the protection of the heavier category (base category).

Otherwise yes, mithral is to be avoided rather than sought after.

seems like an easy fix to add a set amount of prr/mrr to the mithral effect. not sure they can adjust the bab at the item level but then give max bab*6 *item level to the item + the 10 for the base armor prr difference.

ie base
Heavy Armor
- PRR: 30 + BAB + 6
- MRR: 30
Medium Armor
- PRR: 20 + (BAB * 2/3) +4
- MRR: 20
Light Armor
- PRR: 10 + (BAB/2) + 2
- MRR: 10

ie mithral suggestion
Heavy Armor - now medium add 10 prr/mrr to make up for med to heavy and either item level + 6 additional or a flat 25 + 6 for a total of additional 41 prr/mrr. mithral is supposed to be indestructible anyway so the max bab should be fine.
- PRR: 20 + BAB + 6
- MRR: 20
Medium Armor now light add 10 prr/mrr to make up for light to med and either item level + 4 (6 if can't code variable per armor type, but it would seem just add 3 different mithrals and code the loot table to only add each relating type per armor. so... additional 10 + bab bonus of item level x 2/3 or a flat 25 + 4 for a total of 27 additional prr/mrr at max level but should be ok for all as mithral is supposed to be indestructible anyway so the max bab should be fine.
- PRR: 10 + (BAB * 2/3) +4
- MRR: 10
Light Armor now robe add 10 prr/mrr to make up for robe to light and either item level + 2 (6 if can't code variable per armor type, but it would seem just add 3 different mithrals and code the loot table to only add each relating type per armor. so... additional 10 + bab bonus of item level /2 or a flat 25/2 + 4 for a total of 17 additional prr/mrr at max level but should be ok for all as mithral is supposed to be indestructible anyway so the max bab should be fine.
- PRR: 0 + (BAB/2) + 2
- MRR: 0

[SealedInSong]

What's up with mithril nowadays anyway?

From my experience, I only see it in BtA quest rewards, but never in loot gen from chests.

[unbongwah]

Lootgen mithril armor disappeared in the Great Armor Revamp of U14, IIRC. You can still find old suits of it lying around - I think I've still got a crafted mithril breastplate somewhere - but since their base stats were never improved, they're not as good as current armor at higher levels.

Mostly what folks here are complaining about are named mithril armors and in particular the "hvy acting as med" armors like Cavalry Plate. With the Armor Up changes, med provides significantly less PRR/MRR than hvy and so now these armors are really only useful to, say, pure barbs or FvS w/out hvy armor prof...and a lot of them are splashing or taking hvy armor feat for the extra protection.

[Thar]

Lootgen mithril armor disappeared in the Great Armor Revamp of U14, IIRC. You can still find old suits of it lying around - I think I've still got a crafted mithril breastplate somewhere - but since their base stats were never improved, they're not as good as current armor at higher levels.

Mostly what folks here are complaining about are named mithril armors and in particular the "hvy acting as med" armors like Cavalry Plate. With the Armor Up changes, med provides significantly less PRR/MRR than hvy and so now these armors are really only useful to, say, pure barbs or FvS w/out hvy armor prof...and a lot of them are splashing or taking hvy armor feat for the extra protection.

They are adding + prr/mrr with mythic buffs it should be easy enough to add 10+ some static or variable amount based on level of armor to make these worth while.

[cru121]

If you're playing a non-centered Evasion toon or a Swashbuckler, you need to stick with light armor; in which case mithril is no worse than any other armor.

Actually, this is also often not true. You can notice that named mithral armors consistently have WORSE max dex (max dodge) than regular armor of the same category. It's because originally those named items inherited max dex from heavier category type.

Look at http://ddowiki.com/page/Category:Light_armor. Sort by MDB. Now scroll down and look at the values in the minimum level column. There's a trend, starting with level 1s, lvl 2s, etc. But there are a few outliers, armors with extremely low MDB for their level. These are the named mithral armors.
Elfcraft Breastplate, Elemental Mithral Breastplate have lower max dex than ML1 Gerard's Mail.
Breastplate of Vol (ML14!) has the same max dex as Gerard's Mail.
Epic Arcane Armor (ML26) with its MDB similar to ML6-8 armors is a recent unfortunate design failure.

TL;DR: Mithral armor kills your dodge.

[Cordovan]

We understand that there are folks that would like us to give some attention to mithril (and adamantine, and random-gen armor in general.) So far our schedule has not permitted it, but hopefully this is something we can carve out time for when the time is right.

[Seikojin]

We understand that there are folks that would like us to give some attention to mithril (and adamantine, and random-gen armor in general.) So far our schedule has not permitted it, but hopefully this is something we can carve out time for when the time is right.

Probably something to tackle during a loot revamp.

[Ausdoerrt]

Currently Mithril is screwed and adamantine is worthless..

Mithril is screwed indeed.

Adamantine is most decidedly NOT worthless at lower levels, but I'd rather it get a PRR bonus to be useful at higher levels.

[Chi_Ryu]

We understand that there are folks that would like us to give some attention to mithril (and adamantine, and random-gen armor in general.) So far our schedule has not permitted it, but hopefully this is something we can carve out time for when the time is right.

Here's another vote for making Mithril and Adamantine meaningful. There was a suggestion in another thread a few weeks back to make Mithril give a bonus to MRR and Adamantine a bonus to PRR, which could be interesting.

I wouldn't even mind if Mithril was slightly inferior to standard, so long as it wasn't a crazy difference (right now it is consistently -15MRR and -21 to -27PRR which is quite a bit).

If it had, e.g., the same "base" PRR as the "standard" armour, but did not progress quite as well, which could be implemented by a simple flat Mithril-typed bonus of +12PRR/+10MRR* this would mean a maximum disparity between mithril and non-mithril of 10PRR, and the same all-important MRR. Given the other benefits of Mithril that'd make it worth considering for me.

* Under the new scheme on Lammania where the base is 10+2+0.5BAB/20+4+.66BAB/30+6+BAB

[JOTMON]

Mithril is screwed indeed.

Adamantine is most decidedly NOT worthless at lower levels, but I'd rather it get a PRR bonus to be useful at higher levels.

Its worthless.

Adamantine
-Light: 1/- damage reduction
-Medium: 2/- damage reduction
-Heavy: 3/- damage reduction


Invulnerability
any armor even cloth.. 5/Magic DR. ( no mobs do magic damage at low levels)
Invulnerability drops often enough randomly and can be crafted with Cannith Crafting on any craftable armor you want.


~
I would have had the Adamantine increase its #/DR based on the + of the armor to at least make it interesting.
This way the Adamantine would have scaling benefit and be useful through the full level range.

[JOTMON]

Here's another vote for making Mithril and Adamantine meaningful. There was a suggestion in another thread a few weeks back to make Mithril give a bonus to MRR and Adamantine a bonus to PRR, which could be interesting.

I wouldn't even mind if Mithril was slightly inferior to standard, so long as it wasn't a crazy difference (right now it is consistently -15MRR and -21 to -27PRR which is quite a bit).

If it had, e.g., the same "base" PRR as the "standard" armour, but did not progress quite as well, which could be implemented by a simple flat Mithril-typed bonus of +12PRR/+10MRR* this would mean a maximum disparity between mithril and non-mithril of 10PRR, and the same all-important MRR. Given the other benefits of Mithril that'd make it worth considering for me.

* Under the new scheme on Lammania where the base is 10+2+0.5BAB/20+4+.66BAB/30+6+BAB

~Mithral is a metal that resembles silver but is stronger than steel, and much lighter in weight than either.~

Mithral is a very rare silvery, glistening metal that is lighter than iron but just as hard. When worked like steel, it becomes a wonderful material from which to create armor and is occasionally used for other items as well. Most mithral armors are one weight category lighter than normal for purposes of movement and other limitations. Heavy armor is treated as medium, and medium armor is treated as light, but light armor is still treated as light. Arcane Spell Failure chances for armor and shields made from mithral are decreased by 10%, maximum dexterity bonus is increased by 2, and armor check penalties are lessened by 3 (to a minimum of 0).

Mithral is not a magical material, it is an extremely rare ore.

~so I would not expect to see any benefit to mithral other than it being able to attain the properties of a higher tier armor and reduced ASF.



~Adamantine~
Adamantine is a jet-black alloy of adamantium and other metals. Usually black in colour, adamantine had a green sheen when viewed by candlelight or a purple-white sheen when viewed by magical light
It was found only in veins of ore near earth nodes and areas of faerzress in the Underdark. Occasionally, small meteorites consisting of some adamantine would fall to Abeir-Toril as well.
Adamantine, when smelted, was ultra-hard but this was a costly procedure. Adamantine weapons were useful for damaging the weapons and armor of opponents. A set of adamantine armor or a shield was nearly impenetrable to normal weapons.
Adamantine was often used by drow elves of the Underdark, and their adamantine weapons were usually swords that were magically enhanced. Their magical strength and sharpness faded if brought into contact with direct sunlight.

Found in rare Ores and some Meteorites has traces of inate magical properties (has a purple/white sheen in magical light) but is itself not magical (well..not magic we currently know of).
Adamantine can be infused into other materials to make them harder and more durable..
Adamantine Golems in traditional D&D are immune to magic. This would lead me to speculate that Adamantine should carry a higher MRR.

[dunklezhan]

Checking my understanding:

Mithral property:
Drops the armour type down a notch (heavy to medium say) without affecting AC.
ASF/skill penalty/max Dex all get bumped to be in line with the reduced armour type (i.e. they all go from heavy-equivalent to medium equivalent)

The issue is with PRR/MRR yes? In that at the moment PRR/MRR stats are affected in the same way as ASF/skill penalty/max Dex (dropping from heavy>medium), not the AC component (which should remain unaffected).

Is that right?

If so then:

I agree that thematically this isn't right (even though PRR/MRR are so far from DnD 3rd ed that I don't actually understand why we even bother with an AC mechanic any more in the first place). The intention of Mithral is clearly that it should give you the most beneficial options from 'armour weight class' and 'defense'. There are no aspects of Mithral where you should end up with the worse of each component.

However - I don't see how this leaves us in a position where Mithral is to be avoided, particularly. You still get lots of advantages, and your PRR/MRR is not worse than it would be if you were wearing actual armour of the relevant weight class. e.g. on a Barb or FVS, why is it bad to wear mithral full plate compared to some medium armour? In what scenarios will the mithral plate be worse over all?

[unbongwah]

Look at http://ddowiki.com/page/Category:Light_armor. Sort by MDB. Now scroll down and look at the values in the minimum level column. There's a trend, starting with level 1s, lvl 2s, etc. But there are a few outliers, armors with extremely low MDB for their level. These are the named mithral armors.

It's definitely inconsistent: some MDBs are too low, while others seem right (e.g., Silken Mail, MDB:9, same as base Feycraft Chainmail) and some are higher than avg (e.g., Delving Suit, MDB:11).

Epic Arcane Armor (ML26) with its MDB similar to ML6-8 armors is a recent unfortunate design failure.

Actually, this is leather, not mithral, which makes it even weirder that it doesn't have the right MDB. Did it start out as med armor and then get downgraded to light without fixing its MDB?

e.g. on a Barb or FVS, why is it bad to wear mithral full plate compared to some medium armour? In what scenarios will the mithral plate be worse over all?

It's because of the lower MDB (which also caps your Dodge bonus) on mithral med armor vs regular med armor. E.g., eCavalry Plate has AC 26 MDB 3 vs eRed Dragonscale has AC 21 MDB 9; Dodge bonus is more beneficial than AC in the current game mechanics, esp. for a barb, which puts eCavalry at a defensive disadvantage. Whereas if you compare eCavalry with ML:20 hvy armors, they usually have similiar stats (AC 26 MDB 1-4), but provide extra PRR/MRR (~+20 PRR / +10 MRR). So tl;dr summary: eCavalry has the low MDB / Dodge cap of hvy armor and the lower PRR/MRR of med armor - the worst of both worlds, IMHO.

Basically it boils down to: mithral armor needs an overhaul. Light mithral armors should be standardized so they all have the right MDB (same goes for other outliers like Arcane Armor); med mithral should be bumped up to heavy for extra PRR/MRR or given the proper MDB of other med armors.

[PermaBanned]

We understand that there are folks that would like us to give some attention to mithril (and adamantine, and random-gen armor in general.) So far our schedule has not permitted it, but hopefully this is something we can carve out time for when the time is right.

As it's to add for all y'alls discussions when the right time approaches, don't forget to send some corrective love at existing named Armors with special material types please ^^

[Magil]

I remember complaints about mithril when PRR was introduced (when it came to the formula dealing with BAB). Not sure if anyone in the thread mentioned it, but perhaps that's something that can be considered as well. Instead of simply using the light / medium / heavy, it could be put into the type of armor instead? A mithril Chainmail giving medium, heavy plate giving heavy, etc...? It's supposed to be lighter and more fluid, but I don't think it's supposed to be any less protective. I've not seen any mithral armor drop outside of named pieces in a long time anyway, so I can't think of much reason why it'd be too breaking.

Something like this could help with the PRR on mithral in some cases, where adamantine gets an even greater bonus on top of that.