Items we wished were different:

[SirValentine]

I really dislike the "punish the players for having a better version"-type mechanics.

Specifically:

- minimum level going up on Alchemical weapons when you upgrade them
- minimum level going up on Thunderforged weapons when you upgrade them
- minimum level higher on Elite versus Hard versus Normal versions of multi-version items
- there's probably a few others, too

Why do you want us to NOT upgrade our stuff? Why do you want us to prefer lower-difficulty versions of loot? Why do you want us to have to keep multiple versions of the same thing around to get full use out of it?

Note that there's plenty of other upgrade mechanics in the game that don't suffer from this problem: Greensteel. ToD rings. CitW weapon upgrades. Red Fens or Sentinels item upgrades.

There's also multi-version items with the same ML: see your (I feel) successful "Epic" versus "Mythic" versions of the same item, at the same ML.

Pick a minimum level appropriate to the power level of the item, and leave it alone when you upgrade! For multi-version items, if anything, the better versions could be better simply by being LOWER minimum level with the same stats. Or at the least, they should have the same ML but just be ever-so-slightly better. Ever-so-slighly better but can't-use-it-because-of-minimum-level isn't as attractive.

[Calinthus]

I wish handwraps were coded as weapons, even if it meant I had to equip two separately.

I've been thinking that very same thing. Shoot, I'd even prefer having to equip two handwraps.

[viktorserak]

That 1st link doesn't work, btw.

Anyway, none of which makes the Mizzen Mast Splinter "useless". I think it's a great weapon, because it is, or was, relatively easy to acquire. All those you've listed with the exception of the Walking Stick, are likely very, very rare drops. On my Horc Barb and Dorf Fighter, they work quite well as undead beaters. With skellies anyway. For the spongy undead thingies, I think The Hunter's Slayer works very well. It seems to work on everything in Epic Orchard...but I digress.

Is the Mizzen Mast Splinter perfect? Nope. But it will do very well for my toons that use it until something better comes along.

Hello,

thank you for your opinion.
Drow maul is easy drop, I dare to say, especially since they upped the drop rate. Also, at least on cannith, I was able to buy it for 500k plat from AH.
At this point I also dare to say that SD is comparatively as difficult drop as Splinter, but from lower lvl quest, which makes it easier to farm. Just my opinion, yours may differ.
I wnder how it performs on undead targets compared to GS undead beater or Hammer of Life. but that is,, ofc a different story.

P.S. I like very much to use against undead the Maul from Overlords.

[Chauncey1]

Hello,

thank you for your opinion.
Drow maul is easy drop, I dare to say, especially since they upped the drop rate. Also, at least on cannith, I was able to buy it for 500k plat from AH.
At this point I also dare to say that SD is comparatively as difficult drop as Splinter, but from lower lvl quest, which makes it easier to farm. Just my opinion, yours may differ.
I wnder how it performs on undead targets compared to GS undead beater or Hammer of Life. but that is,, ofc a different story.

P.S. I like very much to use against undead the Maul from Overlords.

I will have to look into your suggestions. I'm always looking for better stuff as is everyone else.
The Fury of the Silver Flame...or something like that...I've got several of those, none epics yet. I stopped using that once I got the Splinter. Might start using it again if I ever get the shard to upgrade it.

[dunklezhan]

So yes, as the level cap got higher, the loot generally got stronger; it would be odd if it didn't.

I think I'd like to see a unified end game raid crafting system - base items dropping as they do now from specific raids, but each having an upgrade path to 'end game' version. The materials to do that would come from a range of different (existing) raids, possibly not at all from the raid that the base item itself dropped from, thus forcing a variety of raids to be run, rather than one raid be run dozens of times then never again once you've got your item.

This could also help pave the way for doing something really ambitious, like producing 'end game' versions of raids from throughout the game. For each raid you 'end game-ify', the loot portion would be then adding the named loot to the list of crafting 'base items' and putting more recipes in the relevant crafting screen.

I think that might make the general raiding end game situation more broad and sustainable. I guess it depends on the complexity, variety and drop rates of the crafting mechanisms/recipes, and how difficult it is to add the older named loot into the proposed new system.

[Sebastrd]

Hey, everyone. Still out of the office for the holidays, but saw a few interesting ideas in this thread and thought I'd take a little time to chime in.

Thanks for taking the time.

To an extent, that has a lot to do with the D&D 3.5 base stats of Greatclubs. I'd still wager it's the best non-Raid Greatclub you can get at level 24, however, and that's what was being aimed for there.

Make Greatclubs simple weapons, as they probably should have been from the beginning (i.e., in 3.5) - problem solved.

[Thar]

Hey, everyone. Still out of the office for the holidays, but saw a few interesting ideas in this thread and thought I'd take a little time to chime in.

Overall: Item design in DDO is a relatively complicated task. When creating any item (and especially weapons or armor), there are a lot of different settings, effects, and properties that can be adjusted to make the item unique, and there are hundreds (possibly thousands) of named/unique items introduced over the last decade or so that the new item will inevitably be compared to. With each named item being hand-designed and hand-created, each one is (in one way or another) unique.

If you take the "Comparing Apples and Oranges" metaphor, it often feels a lot like "Comparing Apples, Oranges, 542 Other Kinds of Fruit and Possibly a few Vegetables". If it falls on the low side, it's regarded as "useless junk". If it falls on the high side, we're "invalidating the loot we worked so hard to get". Rarely are new items perceived to be right in the middle.

Not every named item is going to be spectacular for everyone, or even viable for everyone. Some may be a lot better for new players (who may not have farmed that one thing from that one old pack) than for vets. In the end, we always try to make new loot interesting, and useful to at least some builds at some levels, and a little different than what's out there for that item type at at that level.

To specific questions:

The power of this item is in its versatility. Would it be overpowered if it had no minimum level? No, probably not. However, it was not our intent to create an item that you would want to equip every life from level 1 all the way to level 28, which would be the case for some if it had no ML. It also keeps design space for other augment-slotted trinkets open in the future.


I believe the Eveningstar ones are fixed either for U24 Patch 1 or U25; we'll take a look at the Cannith ones in the near future.



To an extent, that has a lot to do with the D&D 3.5 base stats of Greatclubs. I'd still wager it's the best non-Raid Greatclub you can get at level 24, however, and that's what was being aimed for there.

Admittedly, I'm a bit confused by your comment, though; the last feedback I can find from you about the Splinter called the last round of changes to it:

We really do pay attention to the feedback on items, even if we can't always make certain changes. I'd be interested in hearing more about what changed your opinion on the Splinter between then and now.


Exactly. Augment-slotted Random loot aren't necessarily going to be the strongest things out there, but their power lies in their versatility.



The specific instances you mentioned usually came with a level cap increase.
CITW was a level 24 Raid at a time when the highest-level Raid was 20.
Fall of Truth came next and was level 25, but there wasn't a ton of overlap between it and CITW's items in terms of item slot.
The Thunderholme raids were the first level 30 Raids, with gear up to ML28.
Sentient Items, while still early in the design process, will be a part of the level 30 endgame.

So yes, as the level cap got higher, the loot generally got stronger; it would be odd if it didn't. We do try to spread out some of the types of loot we put in Raids (take Mark of Death, which had no weapons), but weapons do have a general appeal to some players that other item types don't.



This is another tough bit about item creation in DDO; we have a lot of weapon types, and often times lesser-used types don't go over well when proposed (see above Greatclub) unless their power is skewed relatively high. That said, we've been trying to get more of the lesser-used item types in lately, and I'll make a note about Great Crossbows.

Thanks everyone!

I'd agree, item creation is a fine line and not an easy task. How to give people something "new" but not overpowered and make item power creap... I will give credit, items for 3bc were done well, orchard a little more less focus on synergy but still nice although the belt continues to elude me... It is a far cry from desert epics which are 95% one good stat, the rest don't make sense on the item either for effect or synergy. ie do you want swim on a weapon? why???

I would have some suggestions as some raid loot from the past has effects that people still look for even in epics. ie torc, spell storing ring. This was a big hit with 3bc with the new boots with freedom of movement on them which were only available elsewhere in one raid item. There are a number of "neat" effects that have snuck into the game. none are really overpowering. now more 40/20 heal amp items would be nice as they are rare amoung current loot and only was available in common loot for a short time. Melee has gotten a lot of focus with good reason, casters need some love too...

I would caution for multi use items. High road items seem to be for multiple classes, (caster, melee, rogue) and don't always fit well and then soon become a equip when needed item or "junk". ie nethel gloves look nice but are they really any better than the manual for rogues out of haunted halls. Do you really want an item you wear 100% of the time to have a skill that you use 1% of the time. So items like that are good for swapping. items that combine like abilities are most useful even if not for everyone as it doesn't make it half good for either class.

as far as seldom used items as the guy was referencing with greatclub. this is what I cautioned on with light shields for the minimal change it would have benefited those evasion builds. There are currently two available 19-25. one is insanely hard to aquire as it's desert loot and shards only rarely drop in raid. And it is outdated and almost useless anyway because it's desert loot. The other is what i call my epiletic shield as it flashes my screen every 3 seconds with sunburst from stormhorns. If you make a change REQUIRING items, you need to follow up with options. Great crossbows are another as the above posted. Bucklers are another example. It is great to have new options, but it has to be implemented like the rune arms when artificiers came out. Added to EVERY chain reward list and new raids, etc. You either go all in or not at all. A few end game options were not enough, not when some of those options are pre loot pass when the scaling for everything changed for normal chest loot but the items that were just "balanced" were not less useful than chest loot. What heroic light shields are used?

[madmaxhunter]

I agree with most of what is being said in this thread. I do laugh at old epics now. I have the mats to build many of them. The mats stay in my bag for the day they can be made relevant again.

I know it would be hard to upgrade all old epic items at once, especially the plethora of sands items. Just a few each update would be great.

Old epic items should be the best items around at level 20, which most are far from now. They should be outclassed at 24, but still useful.

[SirValentine]

I know it would be hard to upgrade all old epic items at once, especially the plethora of sands items. Just a few each update would be great.

Old epic items should be the best items around at level 20, which most are far from now. They should be outclassed at 24, but still useful.

/signed! Scroll-seal-shard Epic items should be as awesome at level 20 as Greensteel is at level 11/12; and as niche/special-purpose at level 28 as Greensteel is at level 20.

[RapkintheRanger]

I really dislike the "punish the players for having a better version"-type mechanics.

Specifically:

- minimum level going up on Alchemical weapons when you upgrade them
- minimum level going up on Thunderforged weapons when you upgrade them
- minimum level higher on Elite versus Hard versus Normal versions of multi-version items
- there's probably a few others, too

Why do you want us to NOT upgrade our stuff? Why do you want us to prefer lower-difficulty versions of loot? Why do you want us to have to keep multiple versions of the same thing around to get full use out of it?

Note that there's plenty of other upgrade mechanics in the game that don't suffer from this problem: Greensteel. ToD rings. CitW weapon upgrades. Red Fens or Sentinels item upgrades.

There's also multi-version items with the same ML: see your (I feel) successful "Epic" versus "Mythic" versions of the same item, at the same ML.
.

agree.

For things like Mabar items when you are taking htem from 1-24 it makes sense. but some of the others? not so much...

still i make a Tf item and an upgraded one so that i have both.

[Robai]

I really dislike the "punish the players for having a better version"-type mechanics.

Specifically:

- minimum level going up on Alchemical weapons when you upgrade them
- minimum level going up on Thunderforged weapons when you upgrade them
- minimum level higher on Elite versus Hard versus Normal versions of multi-version items
- there's probably a few others, too

Why do you want us to NOT upgrade our stuff? Why do you want us to prefer lower-difficulty versions of loot? Why do you want us to have to keep multiple versions of the same thing around to get full use out of it?

Note that there's plenty of other upgrade mechanics in the game that don't suffer from this problem: Greensteel. ToD rings. CitW weapon upgrades. Red Fens or Sentinels item upgrades.

There's also multi-version items with the same ML: see your (I feel) successful "Epic" versus "Mythic" versions of the same item, at the same ML.

Pick a minimum level appropriate to the power level of the item, and leave it alone when you upgrade! For multi-version items, if anything, the better versions could be better simply by being LOWER minimum level with the same stats. Or at the least, they should have the same ML but just be ever-so-slightly better. Ever-so-slighly better but can't-use-it-because-of-minimum-level isn't as attractive.

OMG, 100% agree with you!
This problem in this game was for so long that I almost forgot it

Example:
- you get an alchemical weapon (ML 12)
- you farm a lot LoB and once you have enough matts
- you upgrade it, let's say to Tier 2 (it becomes ML 18)
- you use that weapon only for one level (from 18 to 19, and jump to 20 since you obviously banking XP) before TR
- if you stay at epics you'll most likely use some epic item instead anyway (you already have some proper epic gear since farmed LoB enough times)
Question:
- is it really worth upgrading?

Even if alchemical weapons worked similarly to tomes it would still be not that great item.
By 'similar to tomes' I mean if you have Tier 3 alchemical weapon then your weapon get additional effects depending on your lvl:
at lvl 12: Refinement
at lvl 16: Refinement + Tier 1
at lvl 18: Refinement + Tier 1 + Tier 2
at lvl 20: Refinement + Tier 1 + Tier 2 + Tier 3

Those MLs should be decreased, otherwise it's not worth farming (spirits are BtC, which is annoying to get the right one on the right toon, but if the item would be worth that then I don't mind the grind).

[fangblackhawk]

..... many of these items have been promised to be fixed since around U14 and still have 72 or 84 or such spell power, a few of these have been fixed but many even raid items in this system are still uber rare and hard to get but just dont stand up to radom gen spell power items, even if it was an extra step of tossing in the stone of change to recraft the item to work with the new augment system vs the old epic augment system it is based off..... 90 spell power on a lvl 20 rare crafted item should be the norm, with raid item is this set hitting that 102 mark..... iirc some items have been updated but many have not please and thank you

[BDog77]

I believe the Eveningstar ones are fixed either for U24 Patch 1 or U25; we'll take a look at the Cannith ones in the near future.

Thanks for this, Steel! Are we looking at the same problem with the Cove items? Thanks again.

[RapkintheRanger]

paralyzing DC = 17 on weapons... makes them OK from levels 10-16 or so?

but 26 in the arcane archer tree which makes it more useful than any bow with DC 17 on it... and of use into low epic levels.


why not DCs and weapon levels that go up together?

i like the paralyzing effect and would like a higher DC on higher level gear... DC 35 on Level 28 bow?

[vengfarga]

Hey, everyone. Still out of the office for the holidays, but saw a few interesting ideas in this thread and thought I'd take a little time to chime in.

Overall: Item design in DDO is a relatively complicated task. When creating any item (and especially weapons or armor), there are a lot of different settings, effects, and properties that can be adjusted to make the item unique, and there are hundreds (possibly thousands) of named/unique items introduced over the last decade or so that the new item will inevitably be compared to. With each named item being hand-designed and hand-created, each one is (in one way or another) unique.

If you take the "Comparing Apples and Oranges" metaphor, it often feels a lot like "Comparing Apples, Oranges, 542 Other Kinds of Fruit and Possibly a few Vegetables". If it falls on the low side, it's regarded as "useless junk". If it falls on the high side, we're "invalidating the loot we worked so hard to get". Rarely are new items perceived to be right in the middle.

Not every named item is going to be spectacular for everyone, or even viable for everyone. Some may be a lot better for new players (who may not have farmed that one thing from that one old pack) than for vets. In the end, we always try to make new loot interesting, and useful to at least some builds at some levels, and a little different than what's out there for that item type at at that level.



To specific questions:

The power of this item is in its versatility. Would it be overpowered if it had no minimum level? No, probably not. However, it was not our intent to create an item that you would want to equip every life from level 1 all the way to level 28, which would be the case for some if it had no ML. It also keeps design space for other augment-slotted trinkets open in the future.


I believe the Eveningstar ones are fixed either for U24 Patch 1 or U25; we'll take a look at the Cannith ones in the near future.



To an extent, that has a lot to do with the D&D 3.5 base stats of Greatclubs. I'd still wager it's the best non-Raid Greatclub you can get at level 24, however, and that's what was being aimed for there.

Admittedly, I'm a bit confused by your comment, though; the last feedback I can find from you about the Splinter called the last round of changes to it:

We really do pay attention to the feedback on items, even if we can't always make certain changes. I'd be interested in hearing more about what changed your opinion on the Splinter between then and now.


Exactly. Augment-slotted Random loot aren't necessarily going to be the strongest things out there, but their power lies in their versatility.



The specific instances you mentioned usually came with a level cap increase.
CITW was a level 24 Raid at a time when the highest-level Raid was 20.
Fall of Truth came next and was level 25, but there wasn't a ton of overlap between it and CITW's items in terms of item slot.
The Thunderholme raids were the first level 30 Raids, with gear up to ML28.
Sentient Items, while still early in the design process, will be a part of the level 30 endgame.

So yes, as the level cap got higher, the loot generally got stronger; it would be odd if it didn't. We do try to spread out some of the types of loot we put in Raids (take Mark of Death, which had no weapons), but weapons do have a general appeal to some players that other item types don't.



This is another tough bit about item creation in DDO; we have a lot of weapon types, and often times lesser-used types don't go over well when proposed (see above Greatclub) unless their power is skewed relatively high. That said, we've been trying to get more of the lesser-used item types in lately, and I'll make a note about Great Crossbows.

Thanks everyone!

Hi Mr. Star,

Firstly, I don't think anyone is looking for items that work for everyone - they rarely make for happy friend runs, let alone PUGs or guild runs in larger collectives.
To answer your answers:
1) Agreed
2) Agreed
3) What about Shining Devastation then? Also a D&D 3.5 greatclub ... but pretty darned awesome for 2h blunt builds. Phase Hammer maul is another good example.
4) MM splinter being anarchic means only 2h blunt bbns are gonna be able to use it, ruling out pallys & most kensai (centred,) - THAT'S why I was disappointed anyway.
5) One day watching the ASAH will show how well this works ... 10/9 or 10/10 items outsell stuff with slots.
6) I actually disagree with OP on this one, much of that loot is NOT obsolete, particularly at level. The raids don't run because the 'feature-users' have all the comms, pholgs, scales, etc they will ever need. Adding a few new upgradeable items to each raid when the cap goes up will make them all lively again. Don't have to be best in slot - just best at level and better than loot gen.
6b) No Mark of Death weapons meant no upgrade on the funny looking weapons from that pack ... like the greatclub!
7) As possibly the only person who has played a Rog Mech through multiple lives - since Rog Mech I was the only prestige - PLEASE take any Great Xbow comments to be the joke they are intended as ... until you are ready to give us a REPEATING great Xbow! ;D

[the_one_dwarfforged]

i wish epic gem of many facets could replace either item in each set, because then i would have more dps and augment slots at lvl 20.

i wish greatswords were glammerable onto great axes. esos is one of only a few weapons in the game that i actually like the look of. at least theres drow axes which i also like.

[Edwinge]

To an extent, that has a lot to do with the D&D 3.5 base stats of Greatclubs.!

I'm sure I'll get flamed for this, but I think it's time you did for weapons what you did for armor and throw out the 3.5 base stats. They are too arbitrary to ever be able to balance properly. You'll never be able to make all weapon types desirable as long as you stick to 3.5 stats. I'd much rather see uniform stats based on specialization, damage type, and weight (where each is applicable), with a slight power increase for each specialization tier increase (exotic a bit better than martial, etc.). You would then need to add more weapons and/or adjust specialization tiers so that each damage type / fighting style / weight combo is represented.

An example of how bludgeoning, one-handed weapons could be represented:

Simple: light mace (1d4 20x3), heavy mace (1d6 20x3)
Martial: club (1d6 20x3), morningstar (1d8 20x3)
Exotic: light hammer (1d8 20x3), warhammer (1d10 20x3)

Bludgeoning, two-handers could be represented as:

Simple: Quarterstaff (1d8 20x3)
Martial: Great Club (1d10 20x3)
Exotic: Maul (1d12 20x3)

In these examples, no new weapons need be created. You'd just need to adjust the specialization required and the statistics on existing ones. You could then give slashing and piercing a little different base die and/or crit profile to keep them distinct and allow for more variety. These numbers and placements are hypothetical and would need more thought and math put into balancing them, of course, but I think they illustrate the idea that I'm proposing.

[Xionanx]

Soo.. on the original topic. Pretty much ALL named items made prior to 2013 that are now worse the "random roll" trash loot from chests.

So many items you can get from level 1-10 that are named.. complete and total junk compared to "random" loot. Surely you have some kind of "formula" you are using for loot rolls, just apply the "best" possible outcome of that formula to the named items. For instance the "Black Widow Bracers" should be like Armor 7 by todays random loot tables.

[HatsuharuZ]

I wish all of the older raid items had slots.

[Powerhungry]

That is to say, items that have extra bonuses based on class levels (e.g. Divine Vengeance ). Most players are monk/pally/bard splash with something else because of the low hanging fruit introduced in the enhancement pass and multi classing has become the norm. Capstones are terribly underpowered compared to multi classing as well. Create more incentive to run pure (which is the heart of D&D after all - multi classing should make you more versatile but not top tier at everything. A 2 rogue splash should not have an open lock of +100. I've seen it). Give a reason to run pure +crit range, + crit damage, +(W), +die step, +primary stat, +spell pen, +spell DC, +spell points - there are a huge number of possibilities to boost pure class characters. (alsthough wiz/sorc pures need little help). A multi life completionist, well geared cleric S/B crits for 200.. this is broken. Give me a reason NOT to multi class and stay true to the heart of D&D.
Make my sentient weapon like me more because I'm pure.
(ok, and a bit of a rant about OP multi classes...)