Main stats: Pros and Cons

[Yamani]

And yes the OP did recognise the Dwarf Tank - He specifically stated that that was the one use of Con as Main Stat {And just because he missed a Barb Enhancement isn't reason to attack him either - That's brand new and we don't even know if Con needs to be maxed to make it useful anyway!}.

I wasn't attacking him over that one enhancement I was just informing him that there is some new DC's that are con based.

[giftie]

Dexterity

[...]

Conclusion:
Dex based builds only make sense when centered on a few enhancement trees which allow dex to damage. Shuriken builds, Elven AA, and acrobat builds come to mind, Ninja Short sword builds are at least possible. Except for Shuriken, Dex isnt optimal for most builds since dex cant benefit from divine might or know the angles.

Why can't DEX (or any other attribute, for that matter) benefit from KtA? Unlike DM, KtA is a insight bonus to damage and DCs, not an attribute increase.

[Inoukchuk]

I wanted to have a look at the usefulness of main stats, and which build options they have.

Strength

Weapon Damage:
basically all melee weapons, bows with bow strength feat

DCs
Tactical DCs: Stun, Trip, Sunder, some LD abilities

Saves
-

Skills
Jump, Swim - not that useful

Conclusion:
Str doesnt have much to offer except very flexible weapon damage which is easily boosted by divine might or rage effects.

Dexterity

Weapon Damage:

Class enhancements: Ninja Spy, Staff Acrobat (limited to certain weapons)
Racial enhancements: Elf (limited to certain weapons)
Named Weapons: several, for example tiefling assassins blade, Staff of Nat Gann

DCs
very few (sweeping strikes from acrobat)

Saves
Reflex

Skills:
Open Lock, Sneak, Move Silently, Balance, Tumble

Conclusion:
Dex based builds only make sense when centered on a few enhancement trees which allow dex to damage. Shuriken builds, Elven AA, and acrobat builds come to mind, Ninja Short sword builds are at least possible. Except for Shuriken, Dex isnt optimal for most builds since dex cant benefit from divine might or know the angles.

Constitution

Weapon Damage:
Only racial enhancement: throw your weight around

DCs:
almost none (Sorc enhancements, vanguard)

Saves: Fortitude

Skills: Concentration

Conclusion: Only useful for specific dwarf fighter or pally builds, for example dwarven defender parody. These benefit from +6 con +20% HP defensive stances a lot.

To be continued (Cha, Int, Wis)

Intelligence

Weapon Damage:
Enhancements: Harper for all weapons, Rogue Mechanic for Crossbows
Spells: Artificer insightful damage (all Weapons)
Named Weapons: (Midnight greetings, Staff of the Seer)

DCs: Wizard and arti Spells, Assassinate, many destiny abilities (mainly draconic, magister, shadowdancer)

Saves: Reflex (with insightful reflexes feat)

Skills: more skillpoints, search, disable device

Conclusion: Int is the main stat for wizards and artificers, and with the harper tree it offers excellent weapon damage, too. Int-based builds are very versatile nowadays, with the option to combine spell great DCs and good weapon damage (and trap skills) in one build.

Charisma

Weapon Damage:
Purple Dragon Knight (limited to swords)
Named Weapons (Elyd Edge, Mad Lute)

DCs: Sorceror and Bard Spells, Bard Abilities, Draconic DCs, EA Soundburst

Saves: Will (with FoP feat), all saves (with Paladin divine grace)

Skills: UMD, Diplomacy, Bluff, Intimidate

Conclusion: Charisma based builds are very versatile, with UMD, great saves (if Pally), great STR-based damage from divine might, and either bard or paladin abilities. The only problem are alignment restrictions.

Wisdom

Weapon Damage:
Few named weapons (staff of the seer, forgotten Light)
Druid Spell: Flame Blade

DCs: Druid, Cleric, FVS spells, Monk abilities (stunning fist), GMoF and Exalted Angel Destiny abilities

Saves: Will

Skills: Spot, Listen, Heal

Conclusion: Wis-based builds offer good DC casting/DC abilities, but weapon damage is extremely limited, as are saves.

It might've been mentioned somewhere and I missed it, but since I haven't really seen it discussed yet in this thread I'll add it here:

A huge advantage to STR as main stat is that you can get it stupid high, much higher than most other stats, due to the number of ways you can buff it. STR can benefit from power surge, divine might, barb rage, rage, primal scream, defender stance, nether grasps, action surge, etc. Properly leveraged it can be 20 or 30 pts higher than a max DEX build, max CHA build, etc.

[Saekee]

Its a lot of information to try and cover in one thread post.
There are soo many opportunities for each build type and possible variations.

Every Stat is useful as it has a cascade of unique things it impacts.
Some are more useful than others depending on the build and how it is developed.. many will Min/Max stats and use feats to compensate .. like insightful reflex and Force of personality
Most classes eventually come to the realization of how powerful UMD is and invest into CHA.

Trying to isolate builds from stats is a futile effort.
Some builds like your traditional raging Max STR barbarian may be considered an easy choice.. but I have seen some with Int for know the angles, and Dwarven Con builds...
There are variation builds from multi-classes like Cleric/Rogue.. a terrible synergy.. but it works.
A stunning fist build with Cleric/Monk is another effective build.

The wiki has a lot of information on all of the stats.
http://ddowiki.com/page/Abilities

Another consideration for Strength..
http://ddowiki.com/page/Encumbrance

I think you are trying to capture too many variables and pigeon-hole them into making sense.. like catching water with your hands.. too much information here, but good luck.

I agree with Jotman

Anyway, if the OP doea wish to isolate stats, consider also which ones benefit from Monk stances an Tenser's Transformation.

Dex builds work also for stealth play--nice synergy with the classes that offer Dex to hit and damage.

My dex build is sitting on 48 Dex at level 19 self- buffed with only +3 tome and no Yugo pot, exceptional or insightful bonus (like from Treads). Optimal? No--viable? Quite.

[Ancient]

I wasn't attacking him over that one enhancement I was just informing him that there is some new DC's that are con based.

Making suggestions to improve the collection of information in the original post of this thread is helping the OP, not attacking them. When I post a build thread, I try to thank everyone that responds, even those that trash the build. Because getting discussion on how to improve the build, or an honest assessment regarding the weaknesses of the build is a far far better fate than having the thread head into the graveyard of being completely ignored. It takes a very unique and special viewpoint to twist the suggestions offered into an "attack".

[Tobril]

Throw your weight around CON based dwarves are funny and probably work.


INT based whatever with the harper tree definitely works.


The game is in a rather interesting state for build diversity right now.

[Inoukchuk]

Throw your weight around CON based dwarves are funny and probably work.


INT based whatever with the harper tree definitely works.


The game is in a rather interesting state for build diversity right now.

Agreed. Despite a lot of complaining that the new stuff is OP, it seems to have really expanded build diversity, which everyone wants.

[Enoach]

Something to note in regards to Vanguard Tree is its Stunning Shield DC is based on the Highest Ability Modifier of Strength, Dexterity, Constitution, Intelligence, Wisdom and Charisma. This gives a lot of flexibility to any Build that can use this tree. However, it still requires a minimum of 2 Fighter or 2 Paladin levels and 6 to 8 AP

But regardless the main stat is driven more by the build then many of the stats factors themselves. A main stat is what usually gets the most attention in a build because it has the greatest return on the investment. Example would be an Intelligence main stat based Pure Monk. While it can take advantages of the intelligence based benefits it does so at a sacrifice of its own innate Wisdom and/or Dexterity based abilities.

Also to note is that the opportunity cost of a main stat being at MAX possible vs spreading the wealth around to other attributes will also very based on builds and their class(es) synergies with those Attributes. So the best that can be done is list skills and abilities that benefit from each attribute, and even some of those is class specific (Paladin Charisma MOD Saves, Monk Wisdom AC) or even Feat Dependent (Insightful Reflexes, Bow Strength)

As noted Strength currently has the most ways to buff that stack with each other than any other Attribute. It is also the primary stat needed for most Melee Tactical DCs and as such is usually the main attribute of Melee Tactic builds.

[Makkuroi]

Thanks for all the replies, Ill edit the main thread a bit (again) to make it more readable and include or clarify some of the mentioned suggestions. Ill also add an introduction. Feel free to comment further.

edit: Also, I possess the "thick skinned" ability, so Id never consider any critique as a personal attack.

edit2: Id really love the addition of a wisdom to damage option, right now we only have flame blade and very few (and, to be honest, bad) weapon options.

[mna]

Throw your weight around CON based dwarves are funny and probably work.


INT based whatever with the harper tree definitely works.


The game is in a rather interesting state for build diversity right now.

Oh yes, Vanguard Stunning Shield DC says "highest ability modifier", which is sort of fun.

So... my Dex-based swashbuckler with a couple of fighter levels took that, the buckler ended up being Dex for damage and stun DC but Str to hit. Crafted a +Stunning buckler to go with it, heh. Not sure yet if it'll be much good anyway... could be a nice extra for a bard, anyway.



Have to make a PDK one at some point just for fun, what with the extra Cha-for-tactics they could get. Too bad about needing a "+" heart to take rogue at level 1 as a PDK... oh well, just means it'll have to wait until I get ready to TR one of those that (still) have the +20s. Cha-based would also be better for the other bard stuff, anyway.

[phillymiket]

edit2: Id really love the addition of a wisdom to damage option, right now we only have flame blade and very few (and, to be honest, bad) weapon options.

Man that would be nice but might make Monk the new "it" class. I would be powerful. Msybe too powerful. FVS too could maybe see some hybrid Melee/DC caster "I do everything" builds.

"Flame Blade" meh.

I was excited when I picked that feat until I found out that just because you can summon a blade from pure personal energy it doesn't mean you are proficient to use it. ;-)

Luckily there is Fred.

[Firewall]

In the Dexterity section under 'Racial Enhancements' you miss Halfling (Skillful Thrower).

[Ayseifn]

Why can't DEX (or any other attribute, for that matter) benefit from KtA? Unlike DM, KtA is a insight bonus to damage and DCs, not an attribute increase.

There are also a lot more buffs for Dex than Int, so you're usually better off going for Dex as primary and Int secondary if you want the most damage out of Int/Dex. Only place where Int primary might make sense is for TWFers because KtAs is full damage on the off hand.

[Makkuroi]

There are also a lot more buffs for Dex than Int, so you're usually better off going for Dex as primary and Int secondary if you want the most damage out of Int/Dex. Only place where Int primary might make sense is for TWFers because KtAs is full damage on the off hand.

Int primary makes sense when youre playing a hybrid build which also uses int for DCs. Arti, Melee wiz, Assassin, or using int-based destinies like shadowdancer and draconic incarnation. Also any build which cant get dex to damage somehow.