Barbarians - The Follow Up Thread

[MangLord]

there is a guy on my server with an 18/1fvs split. he breaks 100+ strength. crits for like 14k.

How long does that 100+ STR last? How long can he sustain that level of damage without tremendous resource expenditure? Could a reasonably motivated veteran player maintain that level of damage through their normal questing, or even for every boss fight? If the answer is no, then you're shooting all of us in the foot.

Best case scenario results aren't a viable average for integrity of play. If you're going to use best-case averages, please post ungeared, un-buffed averages for the same character with the same base stats and feats to have a worst case average to represent the opposite end of the bell curve.

[depositbox]

How long does that 100+ STR last? .

long enough to make use of that damage modifier?

[Eth]

all things being equal, there are a number of things to consider and its an incomplete comparison looking at one strength of one class to another strength of a different class and using that as a basis of "proof". there are a number of things to calculate and nobody is going to agree 100% on build choices.

Excactly. Sprint boost for example is a DPS factor.
Doesn't matter if your paladin DPS is better when you start hitting 15 seconds after the barb.

Or the ravager self healing on hit. Not interrupting your attacks in order to heal is huge.

[MangLord]

long enough to make use of that damage modifier?

I hardly see that as a valid argument if that level of DPS lasts for one encounter or quest and is at a cost of unsustainable resources during the course of play. That theory is literally gleaming the cube. (to fail so badly that there is brilliance in failure) As a character that advances with experience and currency, a positive ratio of profit vs expenditure is needed for a net gain, however small. Otherwise it's a net loss and should be disregarded as either failure, show of force or an exhibition. It would be like adding the current land speed record of a wheeled vehicle into the aggregate of average speed of all existing wheeled vehicles existing on the planet. Clearly, that would skew averages with an outrageous positive extreme on a bell curve and add an artificial factor into the maths.

[depositbox]

It would be like adding the current land speed record of a wheeled vehicle into the aggregate of average speed of all existing wheeled vehicles existing on the planet. Clearly, that would skew averages with an outrageous positive extreme on a bell curve and add an artificial factor into the maths.

So, the average speed of all existing wheeled vehicles on the planet is now a thing?

[jalont]

there is a guy on my server with an 18/1fvs split. he breaks 100+ strength. crits for like 14k.

And he's likely exploiting a bug. There's no reason for this to enter the conversation at all.

[Fedora1]

What exactly does this mean? I love my swashbuckler because she's a good, capable character. As it is, swashbucklers are the only really enjoyable lightly armored class that's been updated to operate at epic levels. Rogues are fairly enjoyable, but sneak mechanics are clunky at best and DCs for mechanic, acrobat and even assassin abilities are abysmal. (I'd happily play a mechanic if my traps were worth anything, and I'd even more happily avoid combat altogether if that's what I wanted to build for.) Ranger is a favorite of mine, but the overall damage is just not there unless you frankenstein it with monk and like running in circles for every encounter. That leaves swashbuckler as really the only epic viable option for people who like the special forces/stealth/skirmisher archetype.

No one seems to have an issue with incredibly versatile undead wizards or robot sorcerers slinging SLAs that hit for 5 digit numbers, but when melees start to get a little shine, people get up in arms.

I can see skills that operate on perform DCs being reduced to more reasonable levels, at least for a swashbuckler (it could be potentially devastating to spellsingers and classic support-bard enthusiasts to nerf Fascinate across the board), but I would hate to see damage get nerfed again for swashbuckling and SWF. As a frontline melee character, a good amount of damage is necessary if you want to make a meaningful contribution to EE or solo EH without chopping down 100 trees every quest. Its tedious, not fun, and most of the reason why all of the enhancement passes had been made last year. Seems kinda silly to undo all that good work that was largely well received (except for the perpetually vocal forumites that seem to have a problem with everything).

I get it that people are unhappy with bards being so much better than a barbarian for damage, but the problem lies in a poor enhancement pass for barbarian, not with swashbuckler (or paladin for that matter). I get that as developers you want to provide challenging content, but it seems very clear that Barbarian just fell short and needs a lot of reworking.

Personally, I love that epic content has a much broader class population nowadays. You still need to be a savvy player to survive. No cookie cutter build is going to make for an instant easy button. A year and a half ago an EE group was pale masters, WF sorcs, monkchers and a denial for an EE pug if you were anything but that, and now we as players have so much more diversity. Don't be afraid to bring barbarians into the winner's circle. I can dig that it's a lot easier to give than to take away, but keep in mind that barbarian has none of the advantages of pale masters, sorcerers, paladins and swashbuckler splits. You guys are slowly getting there, but of all classes barbarian is definitely the one that requires the kid gloves be taken off.

This might be the first post in weeks that I agree with 100%.

[depositbox]

And he's likely exploiting a bug. There's no reason for this to enter the conversation at all.

Exploiting a bug? Oh, nvm. I got it. You mean I can't do it, so I'm going to call haxz!11?

[Eth]

Actually I'm friendly enough to search it for you. Update 20 btw, way before barbarian pass.

As of this moment I am satisfied with how the build has turned out. I tried all the suggestions offered by those involved and I want to thank all of you for your input and help. Right now before the new update I can say that I maxed the crit potential for this build and with damage runs and vids and even a posting of the build in this thread to show people what the potential of a class is when it is all said and done. Bring on the new update. I am going to smash 30k after I get my new axe. Once again thanks all of you for the support and help.




Short vid showing final crit week before Update 21:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YTO3wP-5Y68

[spindeldorf]

Hello!

I'm playing a TWF Barbarian Occult Slayer. I noticed that Occult Metalline (OS tier 5) only apply to main weapon.

I suppose this is WAI, --still-- any chance in a future update/fix that Occult Metalline can apply to both main and off-hand weapons?

All other "bound weapon" enhancements apply to both weapons hits, so there is any special reason for Occult Metalline to work on main hand only?

Thank You for any feedback!

[IronClan]

there is a guy on my server with an 18/1fvs split. he breaks 100+ strength. crits for like 14k.

Well let him know he could do the same thing with Know The Angles be pure 20 and add 45 base per swing... Divine Might splash on a barb is contra indicated if you know what you're doing. In fact I'd go so far as to say splashing a Barb for DM pretty much indicates that you didn't do enough homework, or you're F2P and haven't got the favor yet maybe.

[IronClan]

there is a guy on my server with an 18/1fvs split. he breaks 100+ strength. crits for like 14k.

Well let him know he could do the same thing with Know The Angles be pure 20 and add 45 base per swing... Divine Might splash on a barb is contra indicated if you know what you're doing. In fact I'd go so far as to say splashing a Barb for DM pretty much indicates that you didn't do enough homework, or you're F2P and haven't got the favor yet maybe (or to be fair haven't had the chance to respec).

Everyone else challenged your anecdote on the basis of sustainability... I am challenging it on the basis of build min/maxing as I have already weighed the gain versus the loss of splashing a Barb and Know the Angles is the clear winner resulting in just as much damage/tactical boost (actually more*) but also allowing the massive DPS boost of the Capstone and other niceties like level 20 Rage and more CON, as an aside MP available in Harper is strictly superior to most Damage lines in terms of gain versus AP's spent, and KtA helps get to it and unlock the second teir of it if you can fit it in.

* Insightful STR, also possibly a race with -2 CHA like Dwarf or Warforged both strong barb races.

[XxJFGxX]

"DPS is not how much damage you do solely on a 19-20" is what you said that prompted my reply. So yeah you kinda did. Unless you got a little brother that's goofing on your account making you look bad or something

Actually no I didn't. If you actually took the time to read other peoples posts than you wouldn't jump the gun and make yourself look like a fool.

Long term DPS is what that calculator takes into account Paladin crit range, and multiplier is of course factored in. IT IGNORES Barb's X3 on 19-20 (as I explained) and yet it's still shows Barb's being ahead of paladin's JUST FROM STORMS EYE, before anything else is factored. Oh and I was wrong, you don't even need T5 "Hurt" for Storms Eye to surpass Holy Sword... Let alone 400 vorpal, 30MP, Rage, Frenzy, Death Frenzy or the aforementioned 19-20... You're losing this argument without 19-20 being even factored in.... you've lost it at Storms eye, and Barb just pulls away from there on with EVERY other advantage piled on top.

Now the Barb hits rage and goes from 70 STR to 86:

Then he spends 1 AP on the capstone and gets 400 damage on vorpals

We still haven't given Barb "Hurt" from T5, X3 bonus on 19-20 and we still haven't multiplied the resulting DPS by 0.3 which is how much more Melee Power a Barb gets than a KotC Paladin.

Nice little graphs you have there. Too bad they are incorrect through misinformation and the lack of adding all the variables in combat such as zeal, divine might, divine favor, exalted smite, duration, reaction to refresh in combat, etc. And even if your information was correct ( which is not) I would love to see you get the same information with a pure barb using ravager or occult slayer. Also the 400 extra damage doesn't apply on a vorpal it's a 5% proc chance. And what's even more hysterical is that you compared a pure barb using a khopesh as a FB which is the only PrE that has DPS regardless of weapon type to a pure paladin in KoTC which people use it with a two hander and doesn't benefit with a one hander unlike the vanguard PrE. So let's compare with that. And since vanguard paladin wouldn't be benefiting from SWF it would be using improved shield mastery.

This is every thing that a paladin gets with feats that correspond with vanguard and vanguard it self.

+20 melee power
+30 melee power clickie
+7 damage, to hit, armor
+13% doublestrike (23% with Zeal)
80% to off hand shield bash
20% melee attack speed
Equipped shield gains: 2[w], +1 crit multiplier, +2 crit range

TF khopesh: 4.50[1d8] 17-20 x3
Madstone Aegis: 2[1d10] 19-20 x3

From vanguard(with overwhelming and devastating crit as well as with exalted smite, which applies to main hand and shield)
TF khopesh: 4.50[1d8] 17-20 x3 (overwhelming and devastating crit 19-20 x5)(Exalted Smite: 15-20 x5, x7 on a 19-20)
Madstone Aegis: 4[1d10] 17-20 x4 (overwhelming and devastating crit 19-20 x6)(Exalted Smite: 15-20 x6, x8 on a 19-20)

And that's without adding Holy Sword. Hands down a pure paladin that's in a PrE that makes use of a one hander puts a pure FB barb to shame using a one hander.

Well for starters you're throwing away DPS for 1 feat, and an ill advised Divine Might FvS level, when you could have gone pure 20 and added more than 45 damage per swing, 10MP 6 con and 2 STR... but hey you asked, personally I've got no problem with people who don't min max their toons so enjoy whatever works for you.

Storm's Eye only adds +25 damage which isn't scaled by THF. And with my barb having a 48 charisma, 50 if I had either a +6 tome and +11 charisma item using divine might adds that modifier to my strength which DOES scale with THF. Aside the fact that by taking 1 fighter level, I have a 30% haste boost that works with my power of the forge racial boost, and having weapon attachment. So for me Storm's Eye is a waste because it doesn't give me enough and doesn't last long in EE especially against champions. And I would love to see your barb do over 16k+ crits without a mortal fear add on proc.

[Annyee]

Barbs are good to go, minus the buggs that still are not fixed. Check your bug report inbox, they are all there.

[IronClan]

So yeah, um... Back to the subject: Sev are we going to get any improvements to the underperforming OS and Rav trees? Is there any chance we could make FB at least a little less of a "pure 20 or you did it wrong" tree?

Also a Couple issues: Storms eye now doesn't match it's description it's suddenly giving 25 damage (no ramp up) and then just arbitrarily disappears. regardless of health level. Also I'm not sure FB is actually giving X2 on a 19-20 since the last patch.

[depositbox]

Well let him know he could do the same thing with Know The Angles be pure 20 and add 45 base per swing... Divine Might splash on a barb is contra indicated if you know what you're doing. In fact I'd go so far as to say splashing a Barb for DM pretty much indicates that you didn't do enough homework, or you're F2P and haven't got the favor yet maybe (or to be fair haven't had the chance to respec).

Everyone else challenged your anecdote on the basis of sustainability... I am challenging it on the basis of build min/maxing as I have already weighed the gain versus the loss of splashing a Barb and Know the Angles is the clear winner resulting in just as much damage/tactical boost (actually more*) but also allowing the massive DPS boost of the Capstone and other niceties like level 20 Rage and more CON, as an aside MP available in Harper is strictly superior to most Damage lines in terms of gain versus AP's spent, and KtA helps get to it and unlock the second teir of it if you can fit it in.

* Insightful STR, also possibly a race with -2 CHA like Dwarf or Warforged both strong barb races.

I'll just leave this here for you in case you missed it.

Storm's Eye only adds +25 damage which isn't scaled by THF. And with my barb having a 48 charisma, 50 if I had either a +6 tome and +11 charisma item using divine might adds that modifier to my strength which DOES scale with THF. Aside the fact that by taking 1 fighter level, I have a 30% haste boost that works with my power of the forge racial boost, and having weapon attachment. So for me Storm's Eye is a waste because it doesn't give me enough and doesn't last long in EE especially against champions. And I would love to see your barb do over 16k+ crits without a mortal fear add on proc.

TLR: ur barbz cant critz fer over 9000

[Qhualor]

So yeah, um... Back to the subject: Sev are we going to get any improvements to the underperforming OS and Rav trees? Is there any chance we could make FB at least a little less of a "pure 20 or you did it wrong" tree?

Sev did talk about changing epic DW. Ravager stat damage is useless in epics unless there is a change to mob DW and fast regeneration.

Sev said something along the lines of OS being balanced with it having such high saves.

ive been doing 18 barb/2 PDK X3 for past lives on 2 of my characters focused in FB and think that is still really good. its still going to be quite awhile before I see what a 20 barb is like though.

[IronClan]

I'll just leave this here for you in case you missed it.

Yeah no I missed it on purpose so don't bother breaking out the popcorn. If he believes he can't do the same thing by going pure 20 barb and using INT and Know the angles, and then also get the 45 damage per swing average from the (obligatory) capstone then no ones going to change his mind.

[mkmcgw17]

Greetings,

We wanted to create a follow up thread to see how players are doing with their barbarians. We wanted to get impressions of the tree changes now that people have had time to play with them on live for a bit. Game balance and quality is an ongoing process. We don't want players to feel that changes we make will never be revisited.

We are looking specifically for feedback on how the three barbarian trees are working for you. We are looking for your thoughts on Occult Slayer, Frenzied Berserker, and Ravager. Are they fun? Do the trees seem effective? How do you feel barbarian compares to other classes?

Sev~

So far I'm pretty happy with the changes played my way up to 17th now as a occult slayer lvl 15barb/2rogue with a few things from the other trees. Compared with the other melee classes and feats single weapon fighting is still way overpowered and the kensai tree is pretty weak and I never could get some of the enhancements to work. A paladin with single weapon fighting still does three times the damage of any other melee seems like that's pretty much what 50% of the server I am on play and that combination can easily solo seems like any quest on elite even at epic levels. I like the barbarian changes you've made although I haven't tried them on epic yet. Kensai is pretty much only used as a splash tree as far as I can tell and doesn't compare really to any of the other melee types. That all being said I really like the changes as far as I've played them. My only wish is that Barbarians got enough feats to make them into viable two weapon users. Seems they're a feat or two short of being real effective in that regard. That hasn't stopped me from making one though . I like the new enhancement trees pretty much as is so far. To summarize my rambling message I like the new trees so far for Barbarian although they're much weaker than any class really with Single weapon fighting. Kensai is the weakest of the melee atm and SWF is by far the most powerful form of fighting doing consistently two or three times as much as two handed fighting or two weapon fighting. I'd reduce the damage the SWF feat does and power up the kensai tree for fighters a little. So far I'm perfectly happy with the new barbarian enhancement trees as far as I've played in them. Currently a paladin with SWF is the most powerful toon that exists and I personally would like to see them nerfed instead of the other melee classes and combos powered up. Thanks for taking the time to hear our suggestions.

[zaphear]

There is zero chance I'll ever go pure barb or even use Barb Rage. Not being able to use clickies and having to rely on STORE BOUGHT pots (I see what you did there..) is stupid.



I've played with a few 20 barbs. Some managed fine, with high Con and occult slayer builds. Others die in EE fast. Granted this is already an exceptional player that I'm talking about so that definitely has something to do with it.


12 barb 7 bard(for the GOOD rage..) and 1 fvs is what I'm doing for my Barb lives. Only thing I'm using is imp uncanny dodge and some of the ravager tree. Rest is garbage to me.