Barbarians - The Follow Up Thread

[XxJFGxX]

Your claiming your pally is stronger. Since the best barbs are stronger than the best pallies your barb must not be a strong character. It's simple logic.

I never said that my paladin was stronger than my barbarian.

" I'll stick to EE runs on my paladin and continue to out perform pure barbs or jump on my Bladeforged multi class barb and doing 16k+ AoE damage with little effort.."

Where did I mention that my paladin was stronger than my barbarian?

[Monkey-Boy]

I never said that my paladin was stronger than my barbarian.

" I'll stick to EE runs on my paladin and continue to out perform pure barbs or jump on my Bladeforged multi class barb and doing 16k+ AoE damage with little effort.."

Where did I mention that my paladin was stronger than my barbarian?

Okay then, maybe I misunderstood you. So your barb out-performs your pally?

But what you really should be say is "" I'll stick to EE runs on my paladin and continue to out perform pure barbs PLAYED BY BAD PLAYERS WHO DON'T KNOW HOW TO BUILD THEIR TOONS" - because if you are out-performing them on a pally they did not build good barbs.

[Xaxx]

way to much blah blah blah

So it would seem that you simply dont get it or just wont accept the out and out facts....

so lets get down to business again

pally outcrits barb and barb is only 19-20.... hmm... how about that nice teir 5 that increases barb crit range by 2... holy sword is one thats doubled by improved crit.... so a 19-20 weapon becomes 15-20 for pally... and oh my god it becomes 15-20 for the barb with that enhancement also... its such a shame that pallys can crit more than barbs isnt it?

Once again as for holysword being a better overall dps improvement over storms eye.... LOL... if you really cant tell which one of those is the higher dps by doing even a quick look at em then man YOU SHOULD NOT EVEN COMMENT ON BUILDS AT ALL because you simply dont know what you are doing.

As for my qualifications... my qualifications means that my opinion comes from a place of ingame knowledge and observation. Not just from my own knowledge base but from more than a few other people whose knowledge outweighs your and probably mine. You have shown nothing and I mean nothing but WAAAHH WAAAH WAAAH PALLY WAAAH.

As for the trees and ees... NOT EVERY ABILITY HAS TO BE EE VIABLE BECAUSE YOU KNOW HEROIC.... I like to see ee useful abilities in the trees but not everything has to be.

You dont claim your paladin out performs your barb yet you come on here complaining about pallys being stronger... oh my flipping monkey gods of the unholy spawn of Harry.... you know you just invalidated EVERYTHING you argued.

As for you being such a great player.... come to ghal and we'll watch his hjealoliness beat you on kill count on a first life halfling cleric. Come young one, come learn and witness the true power of the minion side. Maybe then you'll understand how dps works.

[XxJFGxX]

blah blah blah CAPS LOCK STUCK RARRRRRRRR blah blah blah COME TO GHAL FOR WE HAVE COOKIEZ WAHHHH RARRRR!!!!!!!!!

Come to Orien 1v1 with your halfling cleric and get curbed stomped into oblivion, scrub. Also way to go twisting other people words around just so you have a reason to post a dumb-a**, half minded assertion. I've said my peace on this, if you have want come to Orien and I'll show you how your "power" is merely childs play.

[IronClan]

I never said you were basing your argument on a 19-20.

"DPS is not how much damage you do solely on a 19-20" is what you said that prompted my reply. So yeah you kinda did. Unless you got a little brother that's goofing on your account making you look bad or something

First of all, there was no "but" in this response to your comment about adding a charge ability to barbs.

So what was this:

Honestly good ideas but I think they should add charge as a barbarian class ability regardless of PrE like abundant step is to monks.

In long term DPS a paladin will be critting alot more often which that damage will add up more than the extra critical modifier on a 19 - 20. Maybe if you took the time to fully read and comprehend then you wouldn't look as silly and I would take your posts a little bit more seriously.

Long term DPS is what that calculator takes into account Paladin crit range, and multiplier is of course factored in. IT IGNORES Barb's X3 on 19-20 (as I explained) and yet it's still shows Barb's being ahead of paladin's JUST FROM STORMS EYE, before anything else is factored. Oh and I was wrong, you don't even need T5 "Hurt" for Storms Eye to surpass Holy Sword... Let alone 400 vorpal, 30MP, Rage, Frenzy, Death Frenzy or the aforementioned 19-20... You're losing this argument without 19-20 being even factored in.... you've lost it at Storms eye, and Barb just pulls away from there on with EVERY other advantage piled on top.

At this point you are just saying things that are simply false and mathematically disproved.


Just Storms Eye versus Holy Sword everything else is the same:


Now the Barb hits rage and goes from 70 STR to 86:


Then he spends 1 AP on the capstone and gets 400 damage on vorpals


We still haven't given Barb "Hurt" from T5, X3 bonus on 19-20 and we still haven't multiplied the resulting DPS by 0.3 which is how much more Melee Power a Barb gets than a KotC Paladin.

Shall I continue or is 30 damage a swing good enough for you?

My own seat of the pants feel having recently speced out of Paladin THF on my toon Rooster and Capped pure FB toon Duergar on Thelanis is that FB might be doubling up on Paladin. The above graphs seems to be leading in that direction...

[LavidDynch]

Come to Orien 1v1 with your halfling cleric and get curbed stomped into oblivion, scrub. Also way to go twisting other people words around just so you have a reason to post a dumb-a**, half minded assertion. I've said my peace on this, if you have want come to Orien and I'll show you how your "power" is merely childs play.

I like where this thread is heading!

Come to Sweden, I'll make you Tacos!

[jalont]

I like where this thread is heading!

Come to Sweden, I'll make you Tacos!

Swedish tacos? This is clearly a trap.

[Monkey-Boy]

Swedish tacos? This is clearly a trap.

But do Swedish tacos out DPS Norwegian?

[Malusny]

Please review your graphs, reflect and better start studying the game a bit more. With all do respect but you put a lot of effort without really insightful and elaborate study.

I am happy to start another conversation with you if you want

[IronClan]

Please review your graphs, reflect and better start studying the game a bit more. With all do respect but you put a lot of effort without really insightful and elaborate study.

I am happy to start another conversation with you if you want

Now you're just making stuff up from a sock puppet They are not my graphs, they are the graphs made by the same DPS calc that countless thousands of DDO players have used and posted here for years. They should be recognizable to anyone who has "studied the game" lol. If you follow the link you can make your own graphs. Perhaps you can use it to continue pretending that Paladin is higher DPS than a FB?

The basic level of willful stubbornness here is almost impressive, if it wasn't so common among people who base their world view on selection and confirmation bias.

[IronClan]

Absolute nonsense.

Hit a nerve did I? Those comments are directed at people who pretend they play only EE on the forum. If you want to own being a Forum DDO player I wont argue with you

[IronClan]

And how would you know wither or not my barb is strong? Because I don't post my toon and what he can do on here in videos?

Well for starters you're throwing away DPS for 1 feat, and an ill advised Divine Might FvS level, when you could have gone pure 20 and added more than 45 damage per swing, 10MP 6 con and 2 STR... but hey you asked, personally I've got no problem with people who don't min max their toons so enjoy whatever works for you.

[LavidDynch]

But do Swedish tacos out DPS Norwegian?

I don't know, but Tacos is like the national dish of Sweden, visit any supermarket and they got a full section of it. If the 'minced' is bad, I guess you can say that it out DPS your colon flora...

[Monkey-Boy]

Hit a nerve did I? Those comments are directed at people who pretend they play only EE on the forum. If you want to own being a Forum DDO player I wont argue with you

No nerves hit, most of your posts are absolute nonsense so we're used to it by now.

There are people who only run EE or run EE like 99% of the time, are you denying this?

[Monkey-Boy]

I don't know, but Tacos is like the national dish of Sweden, visit any supermarket and they got a full section of it. If the 'minced' is bad, I guess you can say that it out DPS your colon flora...

That's awesome, learn something new everyday. Google has some amusing story on the topic.

[Qhualor]

well, to be fair, if I were to compare a barb to a paladin I would be making a more reasonable comparison. I would not be comparing them with a khopesh and I would know that barbs are not restricted to a threat range of 19-20. I also wouldn't be comparing a spell to a capstone. all things being equal, there are a number of things to consider and its an incomplete comparison looking at one strength of one class to another strength of a different class and using that as a basis of "proof". there are a number of things to calculate and nobody is going to agree 100% on build choices.

now if something was done so debuffs actually worked in epics and rage itself had a little more of a dps boost, I think barbs would be the obvious melee dps over paladin and SWF. right now, I honestly think it depends on the wheelman and the build set up but I think its too close to tell overall. I think paladin gets the edge only because they have easier self healing and better saves. Ravager is a good dps tree but the debuffs need to work to make it an alternate choice for a dps tree. OS is just weak dps, but incredible saves so its kind of feels like old paladins to me. FB is clearly better dps over the others and some of the debuffs also need to work better in epics. unfortunately doing PDK past lives I haven't been able to see how good the capstones really are, but with just 18 levels of barb they have greatly improved with self healing and dps. they basically just need a couple more changes and I think they would be "done".

[depositbox]

Well for starters you're throwing away DPS for 1 feat, and an ill advised Divine Might FvS level, when you could have gone pure 20 and added more than 45 damage per swing, 10MP 6 con and 2 STR... but hey you asked, personally I've got no problem with people who don't min max their toons so enjoy whatever works for you.

there is a guy on my server with an 18/1fvs split. he breaks 100+ strength. crits for like 14k.

[Cryptic.Assassin]

Well I can't really chime in on the Paladin vs Barbarian debate as I don't have enough xp with Pally but I have to say that my barbarian has seen a major increase in DPS and survivability since the pass. I am really enjoying the fact that I can comfortably join EE groups with my 18/1/1 barb ranger fighter and actually contribute quite a bit to the success of the party and I'm happy with that.

I've never been a min/max player so maybe my views are different from others here but I would be happy with barbs how they are now if they'd just make frenzy and death frenzy into toggles rather than clickies. Just have the HP penalty tick every minute and there's two less clickies I need to worry about. Between enhancements and destinies, there are so many clickies that I feel like I'm watching my hot bar more than the actual combat.

[MangLord]

~ Swashbuckling is actually boosted a lot because the bard class mods really handicap the content that bards are running. I wouldn't expect the Bard balance mods to stay as low as they are.

What exactly does this mean? I love my swashbuckler because she's a good, capable character. As it is, swashbucklers are the only really enjoyable lightly armored class that's been updated to operate at epic levels. Rogues are fairly enjoyable, but sneak mechanics are clunky at best and DCs for mechanic, acrobat and even assassin abilities are abysmal. (I'd happily play a mechanic if my traps were worth anything, and I'd even more happily avoid combat altogether if that's what I wanted to build for.) Ranger is a favorite of mine, but the overall damage is just not there unless you frankenstein it with monk and like running in circles for every encounter. That leaves swashbuckler as really the only epic viable option for people who like the special forces/stealth/skirmisher archetype.

No one seems to have an issue with incredibly versatile undead wizards or robot sorcerers slinging SLAs that hit for 5 digit numbers, but when melees start to get a little shine, people get up in arms.

I can see skills that operate on perform DCs being reduced to more reasonable levels, at least for a swashbuckler (it could be potentially devastating to spellsingers and classic support-bard enthusiasts to nerf Fascinate across the board), but I would hate to see damage get nerfed again for swashbuckling and SWF. As a frontline melee character, a good amount of damage is necessary if you want to make a meaningful contribution to EE or solo EH without chopping down 100 trees every quest. Its tedious, not fun, and most of the reason why all of the enhancement passes had been made last year. Seems kinda silly to undo all that good work that was largely well received (except for the perpetually vocal forumites that seem to have a problem with everything).

I get it that people are unhappy with bards being so much better than a barbarian for damage, but the problem lies in a poor enhancement pass for barbarian, not with swashbuckler (or paladin for that matter). I get that as developers you want to provide challenging content, but it seems very clear that Barbarian just fell short and needs a lot of reworking.

Personally, I love that epic content has a much broader class population nowadays. You still need to be a savvy player to survive. No cookie cutter build is going to make for an instant easy button. A year and a half ago an EE group was pale masters, WF sorcs, monkchers and a denial for an EE pug if you were anything but that, and now we as players have so much more diversity. Don't be afraid to bring barbarians into the winner's circle. I can dig that it's a lot easier to give than to take away, but keep in mind that barbarian has none of the advantages of pale masters, sorcerers, paladins and swashbuckler splits. You guys are slowly getting there, but of all classes barbarian is definitely the one that requires the kid gloves be taken off.

[lyrecono]

Well I can't really chime in on the Paladin vs Barbarian debate as I don't have enough xp with Pally but I have to say that my barbarian has seen a major increase in DPS and survivability since the pass. I am really enjoying the fact that I can comfortably join EE groups with my 18/1/1 barb ranger fighter and actually contribute quite a bit to the success of the party and I'm happy with that.

I've never been a min/max player so maybe my views are different from others here but I would be happy with barbs how they are now if they'd just make frenzy and death frenzy into toggles rather than clickies. Just have the HP penalty tick every minute and there's two less clickies I need to worry about. Between enhancements and destinies, there are so many clickies that I feel like I'm watching my hot bar more than the actual combat.

i agree, playing a non wai wolf build atm with only a handful of clickies right after playing a barb, my hand never felt that relaxed.
i would love to see that fixed, more perma togles (or "stances") instead of 1 min buffs, having storm eye returned would alleviate that stress too.

as for the rest of the peeps in the tread: