Barbarians - The Follow Up Thread

[XxJFGxX]

Paladins critting more than a barb?

barbs are not stuck on 19-20. my current 18 barb/2 PDK fighter in FB and doing it as a past life is dual wielding longswords and not geared out like a proper barb should be. Oathblade crit range of 15-20 main hand and Tinah crit range of 17-20. you don't even want to know my main using an ESOS is critting for. honestly, im only seeing the really experienced Paladin players outshining an equivalent barb in straight up dps. even EE mobs are going down too fast to try to be comparable and can only see it when you are fighting the end boss with 50k + hp.

As I said it before a barbarians critical POWER comes from a 19-20.

Take a paladin and barbarian using an ESOS. Yes a barb using an ESOS will obviously have a threat range given the ESOS but there main power from crits are on a 19-20. Then take the paladin using ESOS. Paladin casts Holy Sword. Now that ESOS is a x4 on every crit and the crit range is higher. Now Zeal which 10% double strike.

[Qhualor]

As I said it before a barbarians critical POWER comes from a 19-20.

Take a paladin and barbarian using an ESOS. Yes a barb using an ESOS will obviously have a threat range given the ESOS but there main power from crits are on a 19-20. Then take the paladin using ESOS. Paladin casts Holy Sword. Now that ESOS is a x4 on every crit and the crit range is higher. Now Zeal which 10% double strike.

are you taking into account all the (W)s, extra damage, bane damage and 100% or more melee power that you get depending on investment on top of the increased threat range? because looking through the trees of paladins and barbs, barbs get more than paladins by a lot. the difference is that Paladins don't have to keep clicking Holy Sword unlike barbs who have to cycle through their enhancements to get the extra damage. some of the debuffs do suck in epics having no real affect on mobs, but some do give extra damage just for using it.

[IronClan]

One handed barb? Hey whatever your play style is, is your play style but not every barb or paladin plays one handed. And playing on EH? If you're playing on EH, EH is a joke. Any ways, as to Storm's Eye by itself out weighing Holy Sword is simply not true. Yeah Storm's Eye maybe doing a little more damage on non crits but it doesn't compare to Holy Sword when a barbarians critical power come from a 19-20 where as a paladins has much more critical range. And Holy Sword applies to ANY weapon or weapons that paladin is holding at the time of cast.



Occult Slayer is a survival/anti-caster PrE. And Ravager for the most part is just horrible. But I've explained this before with my proposed changes for Ravager.

Oh boy... up until they fixed it SWF was getting +100% damage stat mod, you can pretend I was playing a flavor build, and keep outting yourself as being uninformed if you want...

I preface the next comments by saying: All of these comments require pure 20 FB to be true, drop below 18 barb or focus on OS or Rav and the scales instantly hit the floor in the other direction... Barbarian as a whole is not good enough, and rage penalties as a whole are far too limiting.

Storms eye does not do a "little more damage on non crits" that comment as much as your previous incorrect comments about it decaying confirm that you're uninformed about how it works. Or just how much 25 base damage really is. It's about 5 extra [W] on a khopesh, so the paladins 4.5[W]1d8 (4d8 + 1d4) in the hands of a Pure FB barb is a 9.5[W]1d8 in Storms Eye (9d8 +1d4).

Or put into perspective you probably spend 12 AP's on a 6 base damage weapon line such as a racial weapon line, 25 damage while above half health (I have about 80% up time on Storms Eye) is about 4 times more damage. So lets say you wanted to Purchase the equivalent amount of Weapon damage enhancements for your paladin: you would have to spend 50 freakin AP.

The argument that a FB is not top weaponized melee DPS in the game right now could ONLY come from someone who hasn't played one, and it's pretty obvious you haven't. In other words you're playing the Forum Version of DDO. I will now leave you to that.

[IronClan]

One other thing, I don't know if it's Sev being unfamiliar with DDO or players creating a meme, but this idea that Enhancement trees are (or should be) 1 main tree, 1 support tree and 1 defensive tree that keeps popping up in this thread is highly off putting.

DDO trees are supposed to be self contained PrC's (Prestige Classes in D&D) that a about a year ago Turbine decided to allow players to mix and match as we see fit. This does not mean they should be allowed to stratify into an obviously main tree, an obvious "support for the main tree" tree and an obvious "miscellaneous/Defensive/utility" or "didn't know where else to put it" tree. Compare Bard and Paladin and you'll see the start of this trend, mostly it's an accident of Sacred Defender being a weak stand alone tree. In Bard we have 3 main trees, 3 distinct flavors of totally viable Bard builds. One can dip into any of the other two trees as support even though they are all strong as mains. In Paladin we have two main trees and the "misc" Defender tree. In Barbarian however we have the "must have 41 points" main DPS tree, the "good for a few extra abilities, or a 5 barbarian splash on a 15 level Bard" Support Ravager tree, and the "no one should ever spend 41 points in it" OS tree.

Every tree should be a viable choice as a main tree and allow a viable character to result from it. Every tree should offer trade offs that are somewhat unique or flavorful or archetypical. IMO Barb trees currently do not offer this and both Sev and some players here seem to be accepting this as a given.

[XxJFGxX]

I preface the next comments by saying: All of these comments require pure 20 FB to be true, drop below 18 barb or focus on OS or Rav and the scales instantly hit the floor in the other direction... Barbarian as a whole is not good enough, and rage penalties as a whole are far too limiting.

Storms eye does not do a "little more damage on non crits" that comment as much as your previous incorrect comments about it decaying confirm that you're entirely uninformed about how it works. Or just how much 25 base damage really is. It's about 5 extra [W] on a khopesh, so the paladins 4.5[W]1d8 (4d8 + 1d4) in the hands of a Pure FB barb is a 9.5[W]1d8 in Storms Eye (9d8 +1d4).

Or put into perspective you probably spend 12 AP's on a 6 base damage weapon line such as a racial weapon line, 25 damage while above half health (I have about 80% up time on Storms Eye) is about 4 times more damage. So lets say you wanted to Purchase the equivalent amount of Weapon damage enhancements for your paladin: you would have to spend 50 freakin AP.

I will admit that the devs have made barbarians more playable but doing more DPS (Damage per Second) in the long haul than a paladin are not. And yes an extra +25 damage on EE ain't sh*t, when how much damage mobs hit you for especially champions, your Storm's Eye buff won't last at all. I think the devs fixed the bug with Golem Heart from proccing all the time while under Storm's Eye and using supreme cleave. Anyways Storm's Eye can't match a paladin using Holy Sword and critting constantly compared to the barbarian who's crit damage multiplier power comes from a 19-20.

"Sure I take issue with the notion that Storms Eye by itself outweighs Holy Sword, situationally it can, in EH where you're less likely to take 50% of your health bar before you can heal, for example..."

Not completely sure what you are trying to imply with that comment. Wither it outweighs it all the time or situationally.

Your comments continue to show that you've no experience, and have not played a pure FB, the argument that a FB is not top weaponized melee DPS in the game right now could ONLY come from someone who hasn't played one. In other words you're playing the Forum Version of DDO. I will now leave you to your incorrect assertions, math hand waving, and uninformed contradictory statements.

My comments show compared to yours that you have forgotten what DPS means (Damage per Second) especially in top EE content which judging by your above quote that you have plenty of experience in EH difficulty but not so much in EE content. I'll stick to EE runs on my paladin and continue to out perform pure barbs or jump on my Bladeforged multi class barb and doing 16k+ AoE damage with little effort while you enjoy your EH with your extra 25 points of damage from Storm's Eye while using a one hander.

[jalont]

I will admit that the devs have made barbarians more playable but doing more DPS (Damage per Second) in the long haul than a paladin are not. And yes an extra +25 damage on EE ain't sh*t, when how much damage mobs hit you for especially champions, your Storm's Eye buff won't last at all. I think the devs fixed the bug with Golem Heart from proccing all the time while under Storm's Eye and using supreme cleave. Anyways Storm's Eye can't match a paladin using Holy Sword and critting constantly compared to the barbarian who's crit damage multiplier power comes from a 19-20.



Not completely sure what you are trying to imply with that comment. Wither it outweighs it all the time or situationally.



My comments show compared to yours that you have forgotten what DPS means (Damage per Second) especially in top EE content which judging by your above quote that you have plenty of experience in EH difficulty but not so much in EE content. I'll stick to EE runs on my paladin and continue to out perform pure barbs or jump on my Bladeforged multi class barb and doing 16k+ AoE damage with little effort while you enjoy your EH with your extra 25 points of damage from Storm's Eye while using a one hander.

If you're out performing a barb on a paladin, it's because you aren't a great player yet, and need the paladin's extra defenses that come at the cost of the barb's superior dps. It's that simple. Now that we all know where you're coming from, great. I think it's nice that all players have an option.

[IronClan]

I will admit that the devs have made barbarians more playable but doing more DPS (Damage per Second) in the long haul than a paladin are not. And yes an extra +25 damage on EE ain't sh*t, when how much damage mobs hit you for especially champions, your Storm's Eye buff won't last at all. I think the devs fixed the bug with Golem Heart from proccing all the time while under Storm's Eye and using supreme cleave. Anyways Storm's Eye can't match a paladin using Holy Sword and critting constantly compared to the barbarian who's crit damage multiplier power comes from a 19-20.



Not completely sure what you are trying to imply with that comment. Wither it outweighs it all the time or situationally.



My comments show compared to yours that you have forgotten what DPS means (Damage per Second) especially in top EE content which judging by your above quote that you have plenty of experience in EH difficulty but not so much in EE content. I'll stick to EE runs on my paladin and continue to out perform pure barbs or jump on my Bladeforged multi class barb and doing 16k+ AoE damage with little effort while you enjoy your EH with your extra 25 points of damage from Storm's Eye while using a one hander.

You seem to be having issues understanding what people are writing, "example" is an important word in English (such as my example pointing out that in EH you can have pretty much 100% uptime on Storms Eye). An example is not necessarily proposing or advocating what follows. In any case you wont raise my hackles with some Forum DDO "I only play EE" Childishness. I play EE about as much as everyone else does in Epics, i.e. when I am after a mythic item (which is often the only thing I'm doing lately so yes I am presently playing a lot of EE) Favor, or a First time on difficulty XP bonus. or when it suits me or the person that's driving. I also play EN like everyone else does (such as when doing 20 MODS in a row, or for first time bonus during an ETR, or to get a quick chain completion of orchard to gear an Alt) and of course I also play EH like the vast majority of the server in almost every Wizking and VON3 and Spies in the House and Von5 in the last two years. Forum Version players who claim to play EE exclusively tend to be people who are making things up because they believe it makes them seem more impressive or knowledgeable. Which you stand no chance of considering how many times you've displayed a complete lack familiarity with what you're discussing.

I apologize in advance if it turns out English is not your native language. In any case even where we agree you keep seeming to not understand it. So it's pretty clear that you're struggling.

So far you've posted a eye brow raising "bladeforged" Barbarian (see LOLZ comments from others) which makes you sound uninformed. You clearly didn't understand the reason behind a FOTM SWF build, You've stated that Storms eye works like Zeal of the Righteous and decays when it does not, so you obviously have not used it. You've splashed for Divine Might on your supposed BF Barbarian, which is a very poor build choice (much better to go pure and take KtA), you clearly do not know how Storms Eye works nor understand the significance of 25 extra damage (let alone all the other stuff) you've hand waved at math, and been so consistently wrong that even someone who agrees that Barbarians as a whole need more help is disagreeing with you, because you're just muddling the real discussion that needs to happen. Seriously man after I suggested Barb's should get Charge AS A CLASS ABILITY you disagreed with me and told me it should given to Barbs like Abundant step... Perhaps you're simply not taking the time to read what you're replying to?

BTW Spelling out the acronym DPS twice now is not making you look less uninformed. it kinda makes you seem like you just discovered the meaning and want to show everyone or something.

[XxJFGxX]

If you're out performing a barb on a paladin, it's because you aren't a great player yet, and need the paladin's extra defenses that come at the cost of the barb's superior dps. It's that simple. Now that we all know where you're coming from, great. I think it's nice that all players have an option.

How am I not a good player for out performing another player that's playing a different class? And barbs have better DPS than what they had before but end all be all superior dps? No not by a long shot.

[XxJFGxX]

You seem to be having issues understanding what people are writing, "example" is an important word in english (such as my Example pointing out that in EH you can have pretty much 100% uptime on Storms Eye). An example is not necessarily proposing or advocating what follows. In any case you wont raise my hackles with some Forum DDO "I only play EE" Childishness. I play EE about as much as everyone else does in Epics, i.e. when I am after a mythic item (which is often the only thing I'm doing lately so yes I am presently playing a lot of EE) Favor, or a First time on difficulty XP bonus. or when it suits me or the person that's driving. I also play EN like everyone else does (such as when doing 20 MODS in a row, or for first time bonus during an ETR, or to get a quick chain completion of orchard to gear an Alt) and of course I also play EH like the vast majority of the server in almost every Wizking and VON3 and Spies in the House and Von5 in the last two years. Forum Version players who claim to play EE exclusively tend to be people who are making things up because they believe it makes them seem more impressive or knowledgeable. Which you stand no chance of considering how many times you've displayed a complete lack familiarity with what you're discussing.


So far you've posted a eye brow raising "bladeforged" Barbarian (see LOLZ comments from others) which makes you sound uninformed. You clearly didn't understand the reason behind a FOTM SWF build, You've stated that Storms eye works like Zeal of the Righteous and decays when it does not, so you obviously have not used it. You've splashed for Divine Might on your supposed BF Barbarian, which is a very poor build choice (much better to go pure and take KtA), you clearly do not know how Storms Eye works nor understand the significance of 25 extra damage (let alone all the other stuff) you've hand waved at math, and been so consistently wrong that even someone who agrees that Barbarians as a whole need more help is disagreeing with you, because you're just muddling the real discussion that needs to happen. Seriously man after I suggested Barb's should get Charge AS A CLASS ABILITY you disagreed with me and told me it should given to Barbs like Abundant step... Perhaps you're simply not taking the time to read what you're replying to?

Storms eye does not lose stacks until you're below 50% health they don't decay, and 25 damage is basically the equivelent of getting a bonus of +5[W]

First off, maybe you should take the time to remember what you post before so I don't have to call out the BS.

"Honestly good ideas but I think they should add charge as a barbarian class ability regardless of PrE like abundant step is to monks. "

This is a copy and pasted quote from myself when I responded to you before in regards of your post about the problem with Rav and OS being very similar to Warchanter etc, etc.

As for my bladeforged barb I have my own reasons as to why I rolled him as such. If you have any questions as to why I did that in a productive conversation then we can do that. But to say that it's a very poor build choice and nothing more shows a lack of insight on your part.

And as for me spelling out the acronym of a term, I did that because I think you don't know what it means. DPS is not how much damage you do solely on a 19-20 but as a whole which paladins are still better in the long run because of holy sword and how it functions and how more often they are critting which adds up greatly.

[IronClan]

First off, maybe you should take the time to remember what you post before so I don't have to call out the BS.

"Honestly good ideas but I think they should add charge as a barbarian class ability regardless of PrE like abundant step is to monks. "

This is a copy and pasted quote from myself when I responded to you before in regards of your post about the problem with Rav and OS being very similar to Warchanter etc, etc.

As for my bladeforged barb I have my own reasons as to why I rolled him as such. If you have any questions as to why I did that in a productive conversation then we can do that. But to say that it's a very poor build choice and nothing more shows a lack of insight on your part.

And as for me spelling out the acronym of a term, I did that because I think you don't know what it means. DPS is not how much damage you do solely on a 19-20.

I don't recall basing my argument on 19-20... again you appear to be struggling with reading what people write. What if I told you that Barb is ahead in base weapon DPS WITHOUT clicking Frenzy or Death Frenzy, ignoring 19-20X3, not counting 400 Vorpal, OR the +30% melee power advantage OR the STR bonus from rage? Surely not?

It will probably fall on deaf ears but here's Paladin versus Barb using a TF Khopesh everything being equal except Paladin gets Holy Sword +1 crit range and Multiplier and Barbarian gets Storms Eye and the +1[W] from "Hurt".

[Edit opps] I was wrong, don't need +1[W] from Hurt, Storms Eye by itself out DPS's Holy Sword. I put Storms eye and deadly 10 in the Extra damage field that doesn't get multiplied by criticals Updated link.

Notes: High seeker is assumed (12+5) and 10 deadly which favors Paladin's better crit profile, improved power attack from LD is assumed for both so I could round TF weapon from 4.5 to 5[W]. because the old calc doesn't like fractions of a damage die. Didn't select PA because it makes the graph read cleaner, the purpose of the graph is to show JFG just how much Storms Eye can impact the equation, if you take +1[W] from Hurt out Barb does just a little less than a Paladin. if you put it back Barb does more DPS, if you increase Barb STR by 16, add the vorpal average, etc. etc. it just gets worse for Paladin, and then you can take that result and X it by .3 for the 30MP advantage when you're done.

Now I've got the ball rolling, there's nothing much left to give Paladin (we can add 7d6 light from KotC versus 4d6 vicious but remember Vicious is getting increased by 30% more MP), so if someone wants to tally up all the barb stuff and start the avalanche, I don't have the time... As I said, Pure FB is far and away better DPS than a Paladin. I think this is abundantly clear.

"but I think they should add charge as a barbarian class ability" "But" is a contradiction in English this reads like you're disagreeing with me as though I didn't just say the same thing that's how it seemed, obviously this is just a language barrier thing so I'm not trying to club you over it, just trying to point out how you're coming across.

Everyone in this thread understands the acronym DPS, by spelling it out like that you appear silly. Again I Understand how this may be confusing if English is not your native language.

Bladeforged Barb is a long way to go to get some Spikey Armor, but if flavor builds are your thing (what? you did the same thing to me when I mentioned SWF difference is I understand why you mistakenly went BF but you didn't understand why I had a SWF Barbarian).

[jalont]

How am I not a good player for out performing another player that's playing a different class? And barbs have better DPS than what they had before but end all be all superior dps? No not by a long shot.

Let's be clear: barbs have better DPS than paladin. Period. This isn't an opinion, it's a simple fact. If your paladin is outperforming your barb, it's because there's a breakdown somewhere. Likely that you can't sustain your barb dps the same way you can your paladin dps. So, for you, paladin DOES have higher dps.

[Monkey-Boy]

Forum Version players who claim to play EE exclusively tend to be people who are making things up because they believe it makes them seem more impressive or knowledgeable.

Absolute nonsense.

[XxJFGxX]

I don't recall basing my argument on 19-20... again you appear to be struggling with reading what people write. What if I told you that Barb is ahead in base weapon DPS WITHOUT clicking Frenzy or Death Frenzy, ignoring 19-20X3, not counting 400 Vorpal, OR the +30% melee power advantage OR the STR bonus from rage? Surely not?

It will probably fall on deaf ears but here's Paladin versus Barb using a TF Khopesh everything being equal except Paladin gets Holy Sword +1 crit range and Multiplier and Barbarian gets Storms Eye and the +1[W] from "Hurt".

Notes: High seeker is assumed (12+5) and 10 deadly which favors Paladin's better crit profile, improved power attack from LD is assumed for both so I could round TF weapon from 4.5 to 5[W]. because the old calc doesn't like fractions of a damage die. Didn't select PA because it makes the graph read cleaner, the purpose of the graph is to show JFG just how much Storms Eye can impact the equation, if you take +1[W] from Hurt out Barb does just a little less than a Paladin. if you put it back Barb does more DPS, if you increase Barb STR by 16, add the vorpal average, etc. etc. it just gets worse for Paladin, and then you can take that result and X it by .3 for the 30MP advantage when you're done.

I never said you were basing your argument on a 19-20. I said it before and I'll say it again that is where a barbarian critical damage power comes from is on a 19 - 20 because of focused wrath, death frenzy, overwhelming crit, etc. In long term DPS a paladin will be critting alot more often which that damage will add up more than the extra critical modifier on a 19 - 20. Maybe if you took the time to fully read and comprehend then you wouldn't look as silly and I would take your posts a little bit more seriously.

"but I think they should add charge as a barbarian class ability" "But" is a contradiction in English this reads like you're disagreeing with me as though I didn't just say the same thing that's how it seemed, obviously this is just a language barrier thing so I'm not trying to club you over it, just trying to point out how you're coming across.

Everyone in this thread understands the acronym DPS, by spelling it out like that you appear silly. Again I Understand how this may be confusing if English is not your native language.

Seriously man after I suggested Barb's should get Charge AS A CLASS ABILITY you disagreed with me and told me it should given to Barbs like Abundant step...

Apparently you have problems understanding and comprehending what you actually write and what others write.

"Honestly good ideas but I think they should add charge as a barbarian class ability regardless of PrE like abundant step is to monks."

First of all, there was no "but" in this response to your comment about adding a charge ability to barbs.

Secondly, the bolded part was a word association type of thing.

Lastly, I was agreeing with you. Get over it.

Bladeforged Barb is a long way to go to get some Spikey Armor, but if flavor builds are your thing (what? you did the same thing to me when I mentioned SWF difference is I understand why you mistakenly went BF but you didn't understand why I had a SWF Barbarian).

Other than having more PRR, Fortification, Con, Racial damage boost (Power of the Forge: Action Boost: For 20 seconds you gain: +20% Action Boost bonus to weapon damage, +30 Action Boost bonus to Universal Spell Power, +4 Action Boost bonus to all Saving Throws, +10 Action Boost bonus to Armor Class and Physical Resistance Rating) that stacks with haste boost, Weapon Attachment, Racial Seeker, -10% Slashing damage, gaining +1 PRR for 3 seconds (up to +20 PRR) every time I take slashing damage, etc the spiky armor is just a bonus.

[XxJFGxX]

Let's be clear: barbs have better DPS than paladin. Period. This isn't an opinion, it's a simple fact. If your paladin is outperforming your barb, it's because there's a breakdown somewhere. Likely that you can't sustain your barb dps the same way you can your paladin dps. So, for you, paladin DOES have higher dps.

I'm not saying my paladin is out performing my barb, my paladin is out performing pure barbs that I ran with. And like i said it before a pure barbarian doesn't do more DPS than a paladin in long term because of the paladin enhancements, offensive buff spells, etc.

[Monkey-Boy]

How am I not a good player for out performing another player that's playing a different class? And barbs have better DPS than what they had before but end all be all superior dps? No not by a long shot.

You might be a good player, but your barbarian is not a strong toon compared to the barbs others have built.

[Monkey-Boy]

I'm not saying my paladin is out performing my barb, my paladin is out performing pure barbs that I ran with.

You need to run with better people.

[XxJFGxX]

You might be a good player, but your barbarian is not a strong toon compared to the barbs others have built.

And how would you know wither or not my barb is strong? Because I don't post my toon and what he can do on here in videos?

[Monkey-Boy]

And how would you know?

Because you're making claims that are so obviously wrong you have me agreeing with Jalont

[jalont]

And how would you know wither or not my barb is strong? Because I don't post my toon and what he can do on here in videos?

Because you keep claiming that a paladin has higher dps. This isn't true. So there's a breakdown somewhere. It is impossible for you to run a top-tier barbarian and come away withe the thought that a paladin has higher dps because it is not true.

[Monkey-Boy]

And how would you know wither or not my barb is strong? Because I don't post my toon and what he can do on here in videos?

Your claiming your pally is stronger. Since the best barbs are stronger than the best pallies your barb must not be a strong character. It's simple logic.